HardyBoy Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Einstein said: Making a mistake doesn’t make you a fool. But refusing to admit your mistakes, shows how foolish you are. What makes up more of the cost...ink or the let's just say hypothetically the 10 skilled union manufacturing jobs that were eliminated through advancements in automation (I'm guessing the actual number of jobs eliminated because they were able to automate things was way way higher per shift). You're quoting short term inflation over the last couple of years without accounting for all the cost savings that happened 15-20 years ago. Plus they had entrie newsrooms eliminated because they just use the AP for 80% of the newspaper now. Ink prices, lol Edited July 9, 2023 by HardyBoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, What a Tuel said: Dude you are literally arguing the cost of production in 2023 is HIGHER than 1990. I mean give me a damn break. Like I said though. You do you. Yes. Correct. Due to inflation which has caused wages, ink, paper, etc all to climb. You're unwillingness to accept facts doesn't change that. Ignoring empirical data doesnt change that. Newspapers and its derivatives were not immune from inflation for the past 40 years. . Edited July 9, 2023 by Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsgoteam Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 On 7/7/2023 at 7:00 AM, gjv said: Can a city be viable without a newspaper? I hadn't read my city's newspaper in years, it sucks. Why does a city need a newspaper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slippery Rubber Mats Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 7 hours ago, letsgoteam said: I hadn't read my city's newspaper in years, it sucks. Why does a city need a newspaper? After all the ***** posting Einstein has done in this thread I can't tell anymore, so I gotta ask: are you serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardyBoy Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 10 hours ago, Einstein said: Yes. Correct. Due to inflation which has caused wages, ink, paper, etc all to climb. You're unwillingness to accept facts doesn't change that. Ignoring empirical data doesnt change that. Newspapers and its derivatives were not immune from inflation for the past 40 years. . Dude...listen...automated machines eliminated jobs...it is cheaper to pay significantly fewer people than it is to pay for increased ink costs. Please account for the decreased workforce costs as a matter of fewer employees required to work the manufacturing line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, HardyBoy said: Dude...listen...automated machines eliminated jobs...it is cheaper to pay significantly fewer people than it is to pay for increased ink costs. You can just stay logged into your "Tuel" account. No need to flip back and forth. The current newspaper printing presses were built in the 1990's. The Buffalo News printing press is using a 90's era machine that was installed after Y2K. Thats part of the reason theyre moving the printing to Cleveland - the press is old! They still employ press-men and engravers! That's how old the tech is. If you walk into the Buffalo news warehouse you will see a large metal structure that pushes the paper over rollers and imprints before combining. These machines have been in place for over 20 years. They're not new. Production is not significantly cheaper now because it's the same machines we used back then! Add on top of that: - Ink prices went up due to inflation. - Rent went up due to inflation. - Truck prices went up due to inflation. - Gas prices went up due to inflation. - Salaries went up due to inflation. The process is not automated either. Workers in the plate room control a machine that burns pages onto aluminum plates. The plates have a special coating that is sensitive to light. They undergo a chemical bath. Afterward, the plates are bent to fit the press and are then attached to the presses and pressed onto newsprint using a combination of water and ink (which is typically soy or oil derivatives). These ARE less workers, but it's because newspapers in general have declined in readership thus necessitating less workers. Less revenue = less people you can pay. Edited July 9, 2023 by Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boater Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 17 hours ago, letsgoteam said: I hadn't read my city's newspaper in years, it sucks. Why does a city need a newspaper? A city doesn't need a good newspaper per se. What a city needs is a strong newsroom. A sizeable group of reporters to dig into local shite going on. It could be print, TV, radio, internet... the medium doesn't matter. A city just needs a large newsroom. Look at the Two Bills Drive main page. Most of the articles are from the Buffalo News... a large newsroom. What would fill that void if they closed? The next best source of Bills news is WGR... cringe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 20 hours ago, Einstein said: Making a mistake doesn’t make you a fool. But refusing to admit your mistakes, shows how foolish you are. You might consider your own advice instead of being a running joke to everyone on here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 47 minutes ago, Malazan said: You might consider your own advice instead of being a running joke to everyone on here. This is akin to the “cool kids” in class picking on the nerd because he was significantly more intelligent. Bullying doesn’t change as you grow older - it just appears in different forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Einstein said: This is akin to the “cool kids” in class picking on the nerd because he was significantly more intelligent. Bullying doesn’t change as you grow older - it just appears in different forms. More like everyone calling out a douchebag who doesn't like to be called out. Edited July 9, 2023 by Malazan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 19 minutes ago, Malazan said: More like everyone calling out a douchebag who doesn't like to be called out. The Imperor has no clothes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Malazan said: More like everyone calling out a douchebag who doesn't like to be called out. oh look, another form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Einstein said: You can just stay logged into your "Tuel" account. No need to flip back and forth. The current newspaper printing presses were built in the 1990's. The Buffalo News printing press is using a 90's era machine that was installed after Y2K. Thats part of the reason theyre moving the printing to Cleveland - the press is old! They still employ press-men and engravers! That's how old the tech is. If you walk into the Buffalo news warehouse you will see a large metal structure that pushes the paper over rollers and imprints before combining. These machines have been in place for over 20 years. They're not new. Production is not significantly cheaper now because it's the same machines we used back then! Add on top of that: - Ink prices went up due to inflation. - Rent went up due to inflation. - Truck prices went up due to inflation. - Gas prices went up due to inflation. - Salaries went up due to inflation. The process is not automated either. Workers in the plate room control a machine that burns pages onto aluminum plates. The plates have a special coating that is sensitive to light. They undergo a chemical bath. Afterward, the plates are bent to fit the press and are then attached to the presses and pressed onto newsprint using a combination of water and ink (which is typically soy or oil derivatives). These ARE less workers, but it's because newspapers in general have declined in readership thus necessitating less workers. Less revenue = less people you can pay. Hahahaha. You think it is the same person thinking you are being absurd? The arrogance. Those machines were put in place in 2004. So suffice to say some improvement in the machinery occurred between 1990 and 2004? No? Edit: I say 1990 bc that was your inflation calculator date but it was likely faaaar older machines than 1990 were replaced in 2004. Ok lets talk computers, editing, writers, proofreading, internet research. Any number of things that make it cheaper to produce a damn newspaper man. Just give it up. Edited July 10, 2023 by What a Tuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Maybe this will help @What a Tuelunderstand. Pretend you have a company that has $1,000,000 of expenses per year and 500,000 of that is salaries. Automation comes along, making 90% of your ENTIRE workforce obsolete. What is 90% of 500,000? $450,000 You just laid off 90% of your employees and saved 450k. Now your expenses are down to $550,000. Then inflation comes along and everything costs 2.4x more. What is $550,000 x 2.4? It’s $1,320,000. You're now paying $1,320,000. So you reduced your workforce by 90%, but still pay more… Are you starting to understand how inflation makes things cost more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, Einstein said: The machines are 1990’s era machines installed. They are nothing like what you are imagining now. They still required press-men and engravers and bending plates. I assume in your head they press “print” on a computer and off it goes lol. lol are you saying off-loaded some jobs? Sure. Of course. But that doesn’t make up for the 3x inflation. So they replaced the printing press in 2004 with the same exact technology they already had? Come on man. "The Buffalo News took the wraps off its new color commercial printing press Thursday, part of a $1 million investment to expand the company's ability to print high-quality postcards, brochures and reports." 2 minutes ago, Einstein said: Maybe this will help @What a Tuelunderstand. Pretend you have a company that has $1,000,000 of expenses per year and 500,000 of that is salaries. Automation comes along, making 90% of your ENTIRE workforce obsolete. What is 90% of 500,000? $450,000 You just laid off 90% of your employees and saved 450k. Now your expenses are down to $550,000. Then inflation comes along and everything costs 2.4x more. What is $550,000 x 2.4? It’s $1,320,000. You're now paying $1,320,000. So you reduced your workforce by 90%, but still pay more… Are you starting to understand how inflation makes things cost more? You have a terrible understanding of this. It is more like: $1,000,000 x 2.4 inflation equals 2,400,000 in costs without the efficiency improvements. $550,000 x 2.4 inflation equals $1,320,000 in costs with the efficiency improvements. Inflation happens either way however ultimately the cost of production DECLINES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, What a Tuel said: It is more like: $1,000,000 x 2.4 inflation equals 2,400,000 in costs without the efficiency improvements. $550,000 x 2.4 inflation equals $1,320,000 in costs with the efficiency improvements. Inflation happens either way however ultimately the cost of production DECLINES. No one said they are not more efficient now. What was said is that is still costs more. You're changing your argument from "it costs less now" to "well i guess it does cosst more but it would have been even worse if they didnt become more efficient". Well, duh. . Edited July 10, 2023 by Einstein 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Since1981 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) Buff News business model: scam over 60 to still buy paper. over 50 to paywall. Fewer and fewer Baby Boomers to scam, means higher and higher prices for those left. I like Bills reporting but unless it’s $4. Forget it. Streaming sets the market and it isn’t $28/mo !! they’ll lay off buff news staff when they can’t get the revenue this year. (iPhone killed: camera, phone, level, maps, calculator, compass, radio, camcorder, encyclopedia, dictionary…newspaper Buff News Bills) Edited July 10, 2023 by Since1981 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Since1981 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 And btw, if the market supports the very good Bills reporting by Buff News then it will go on, in a form. Getting widespread acceptance of $28/mo is not going to happen. This isn’t a union or inflation thing. It’s that their customer base is dying and $28/mo is too much Vs. Netflix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Einstein said: No one said they are not more efficient now. What was said is that is still costs more. You're changing your argument from "it costs less now" to "well i guess it does cosst more but it would have been even worse if they didnt become more efficient". Well, duh. . Nope, bud. Not even close. Edit: and yeah you were making the argument that they aren't more efficient now. You literally made arguments that the machinery installed in 2004 is the same efficiency as whatever they had prior to that. You literally made arguments that the reduction in required staff doesn't make a significant impact. Pretty sure you indirectly implied that you don't think computing advances has had any impact either. But like I said, you do you. On 7/8/2023 at 10:29 AM, What a Tuel said: It doesn't account for advances in production capability, and productivity that decreases cost though. So yeah the inflated price is right but at the same time, how have their costs of production faired? They certainly didn't skyrocket, and would be amazed to find out they stayed the same. Edited July 10, 2023 by What a Tuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, What a Tuel said: Nope, bud. Not even close. Edit: and yeah you were making the argument that they aren't more efficient now. You seem to have conveniently forgotten how this discussion started. You said: ”Oh come on man. You really think it costs more to print a paper than in 1990? Give me a break.” - What a Tuel To which I responded, of course it costs more! Inflation has pushed prices higher. Ink costs more, paper costs more, vehicles cost more, salaries cost more. Once you eventually realized that it does in fact cost more now, you switched to an efficiency argument. The entire basis of this entire argument is that it costs more now to print the paper than it did in 1990. Your computing advances argument is the same as your employee argument. The advance of computer power has simply reduced salaries, which I already showed you *still* doesn’t outpace inflation. There is no other way around it - it costs more to print and deliver the paper now than it did in 1990. . Edited July 10, 2023 by Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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