MJS Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Rebel101 said: I’d rather have a hungry rookie trying to earn a spot on special teams who can fill in on defense cause Neal cam Lewis and Tyler add no value are special teams alone isn’t great and the time they see on defense hurts this team Sure, but if the team gets offensive or defensive contributions from their primary special teams contributors, they would literally be the only team in the NFL where that is the case. Every single team had at least 3 players (most with 5 to 7) who contributed almost nothing to offense and defense. If the Bills managed that, they would be in a class of their own. And it would mean that the offense and defense would be worse, because your bottom of the roster guys are worse players. You don't want those guys to play. You want your starters to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 20 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Didn’t Tyler M get $2.5M ? That seems high for 9.5 tackles/year as a Special Teams demon. You understand his role on special teams, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 3 hours ago, Don Otreply said: Both those guys (Hines & Kumerow) salaries are likely slotted in the STs budget, it matters not if they played a little or a lot, it’s still in the STs budget, and there for they count in the total cost of the Bills STs expenditures. Count it all or it is just cherry-picking. We'll have to wait till next season for that data. Or look at 2021 if you'd like. Again, if I can't compare the same for all teams, I won't do it. I'm not going to add those players for the Bills without doing the same for every other team, and I just don't have the time to carry out that research. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You understand his role on special teams, right? Nah you’re right, it’s great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 23 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said: Didn’t Tyler M get $2.5M ? That seems high for 9.5 tackles/year as a Special Teams demon. If he got $2.5 million, that's actually a big pay cut from last year. I noticed most of the highest paid special teamers in the analysis were linebackers. They fill a specific role and there is measurable value all throughout the NFL for that role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 28 minutes ago, MJS said: If he got $2.5 million, that's actually a big pay cut from last year. I noticed most of the highest paid special teamers in the analysis were linebackers. They fill a specific role and there is measurable value all throughout the NFL for that role. Yep. They used to be called wedge players. Then they outlawed the wedge block, but essentially his job on kick and punt return is to engage the pursuit in the middle of the field and give the returner time to make the catch and then to set off straight ahead rather than immediately having to bend towards the sideline because the central rush gets to him. He does that role really well. When we kick off providing that central rush and occupying blockers such that the gunners get left 1v1 is his job. He is decent at that but it is as a wedge guy when we are returning where he really sets himself apart. On our punts he has played a variety of ST roles but primarily wing defender for the punter. Him one side, Gilliam the other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 48 minutes ago, MJS said: I was specifically looking at whether or not the Bills spend the most in the league on primary special teams contributors, which is the claim I see from time to time. Whether or not we spend too much is up for debate. The Bills don't spend the most, but they spend a lot. They have good results in ranking from that spending, but perhaps we don't need to be THE best special teams unit in the NFL. Maybe we can just settle for top 10 and reallocate some of those resources elsewhere. I'm all for that. But I do understand the approach to wanting dominant special teams. There is real value there. Nope. That is close to a minimum salary. I find it berry interesting that the top 5 teams who all spend the most per STer all kinds suck except for us 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: I find it berry interesting that the top 5 teams who all spend the most per STer all kinds suck except for us The Jags are getting pretty good. The Lions are getting better. Then the teams after that are all relatively good: Vikings, Seahawks, Dolphins, Bengals. To me it just seems like it comes down to team philosophy. Good and bad teams are all over the spectrum, some paying a lot, some paying a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 19 hours ago, MJS said: I see this thrown around a lot about the Bills, that they pay their special teamers the most in the league, and especially that they roster too many primary special teams players. They claim that other teams only roster 2 or 3, while the BIlls roster 4 or 5. So, I ran the numbers, because I really didn't know if that was true. Did you run any kind of analysis on the percentages that STs on our team of Defensive Snapcounts (or offensive I suppose if any) contrasted with the rest? I'm curious what teams get out of their special teamers otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngbills Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 hour ago, FireChans said: I find it berry interesting that the top 5 teams who all spend the most per STer all kinds suck except for us Because it’s more likely good team - good coaching - good special teams. Less spend money - good special teams. I played through college and yes some guys are better at special teams. But we are talking 32 teams. You can’t tell me that you can’t find a good special team guy can’t also be a decent back up lb or db. I don’t line spending the money on a guy you would not put on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 hour ago, PBF81 said: Did you run any kind of analysis on the percentages that STs on our team of Defensive Snapcounts (or offensive I suppose if any) contrasted with the rest? I'm curious what teams get out of their special teamers otherwise. It's a mixed bag. The Ravens play a lot of starters on special teams, I noticed. The Giants had more contributions, but that is because they were scraping the bottom of the barrel talent wise. If you play linebacker, running back, or defensive back in the NFL and are not a starter, you likely contribute on special teams in the NFL. The Bills are no different in that regard. 54 minutes ago, ngbills said: Because it’s more likely good team - good coaching - good special teams. Less spend money - good special teams. I played through college and yes some guys are better at special teams. But we are talking 32 teams. You can’t tell me that you can’t find a good special team guy can’t also be a decent back up lb or db. I don’t line spending the money on a guy you would not put on the field. Go look at the analysis. Most teams have 5 to 7 players that are almost exclusively special teams contributors. Why? Because your starters are better and you want them on the field as much as possible. A lot of good teams spend a lot on special teams. A lot of bad teams don't spend a lot. And vice versa. There was no correlation between spending and performance, or good vs bad teams overall, but I also did not include two of the biggest contributors to special teams (punters and kickers). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Matter_What Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Yep. They used to be called wedge players. Then they outlawed the wedge block, but essentially his job on kick and punt return is to engage the pursuit in the middle of the field and give the returner time to make the catch and then to set off straight ahead rather than immediately having to bend towards the sideline because the central rush gets to him. He does that role really well. When we kick off providing that central rush and occupying blockers such that the gunners get left 1v1 is his job. He is decent at that but it is as a wedge guy when we are returning where he really sets himself apart. On our punts he has played a variety of ST roles but primarily wing defender for the punter. Him one side, Gilliam the other. Gunner I am coming from the big thread where you were also commenting on Matakevich. I had two questions, and the first one you just answered above Which leads to the second one. Now I understand what he does in the team. However, are you sure that it is worth to pay him that much for this role? He gets $2.5M next season. Less than before, but still $1.6M more than random fringe NFL player. My question is - do you think that it is worth keeping guy like him for $2.5M, instead of letting Spector or anyone else signed for $900k do that job (obviously worse than Matakevich), and paying those $1.6M as extra money for a better player on more important position, who plays 80-100% of offensive/defensive snaps? Just an example - we just paid McGovern about $7.4M AAV. What if there was $9M AAV guard available? Don't you think it would be better to use those money on him? I have obviously no data on this but my gut tells me that ST plays relatively so few snaps that it is not worth the money. Bills seem to think otherwise and I respect it, but no sure I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 5 hours ago, GunnerBill said: A guy "just as good on STs"?? That will be a hard find. Matakevich is one of the best. Being that Beane appears to like to churn the bottom of the roster every so often, we shall see, Matakevich has his anchor set deep, he may very well be here for a while…, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel101 Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 5 hours ago, MJS said: Sure, but if the team gets offensive or defensive contributions from their primary special teams contributors, they would literally be the only team in the NFL where that is the case. Every single team had at least 3 players (most with 5 to 7) who contributed almost nothing to offense and defense. If the Bills managed that, they would be in a class of their own. And it would mean that the offense and defense would be worse, because your bottom of the roster guys are worse players. You don't want those guys to play. You want your starters to play. But ours do see the field n they are all draft picks who can’t hack it beane should have a few of them lying around already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 hour ago, No_Matter_What said: Gunner I am coming from the big thread where you were also commenting on Matakevich. I had two questions, and the first one you just answered above Which leads to the second one. Now I understand what he does in the team. However, are you sure that it is worth to pay him that much for this role? He gets $2.5M next season. Less than before, but still $1.6M more than random fringe NFL player. My question is - do you think that it is worth keeping guy like him for $2.5M, instead of letting Spector or anyone else signed for $900k do that job (obviously worse than Matakevich), and paying those $1.6M as extra money for a better player on more important position, who plays 80-100% of offensive/defensive snaps? Just an example - we just paid McGovern about $7.4M AAV. What if there was $9M AAV guard available? Don't you think it would be better to use those money on him? I have obviously no data on this but my gut tells me that ST plays relatively so few snaps that it is not worth the money. Bills seem to think otherwise and I respect it, but no sure I agree. I can say that many teams I looked at had a higher cost linebacker or defensive end in the 1.5 to 3 million range who I can only assume does the same or similar things as our guy. It seems like this is an in-demand role throughout the league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 22 hours ago, DieHardBillsFan said: How many team pay an exclusive long snapper? Pretty sure that is low. Add that money and Bills pay the most and have more than avg ST players. Almost all teams do. Some have more than one under contract due to injuries or competition. https://overthecap.com/position/long-snapper DieHardTroll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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