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Church Of England Debate Gender Of God


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42 minutes ago, ALF said:

Jesus

Lord's Prayer, also called Our Father, Latin Oratio Dominica or Pater Noster, Christian prayer that, according to tradition, was taught by Jesus to his disciples.

 

Aside from the fact that God almost exclusively self-refers in the masculine throughout the Bible, the particularly odd bit about this whole thing is that the (little "O") orthodox Christian tradition believes that Jesus of Nazareth is himself God, which you would think would put an end to the "debate" entirely.

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Jesus gender has nothing to do with his divinity.

Jesus was on earth as a human.

His divinity is completely separate.

 

The Bible, whether in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English uses the language of the time.

It has noting to do with God's relating any gender.

 

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representation matters and can and has been used for nefarious purposes.

https://www.britannica.com/story/the-long-history-of-how-jesus-came-to-resemble-a-whiteeuropean

 

Scholar Edward J. Blum and Paul Harvey argue that in the centuries after European colonization of the Americas, the image of a white Christ associated him with the logic of empire and could be used to justify the oppression of Native and African Americans.

In a multiracial but unequal America, there was a disproportionate representation of a white Jesus in the media. It wasn’t only Warner Sallman’s Head of Christ that was depicted widely; a large proportion of actors who have played Jesus on television and film have been white with blue eyes.

Pictures of Jesus historically have served many purposes, from symbolically presenting his power to depicting his actual likeness. But representation matters, and viewers need to understand the complicated history of the images of Christ they consume.

Much later, anti-Semitic forces in Europe including the Nazis would attempt to divorce Jesus totally from his Judaism in favor of an Aryan stereotype.

Edited by redtail hawk
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22 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Jesus gender has nothing to do with his divinity.

Jesus was on earth as a human.

His divinity is completely separate.

 

The Bible, whether in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or English uses the language of the time.

It has noting to do with God's relating any gender.

 

 

This would place you outside of the orthodox Christian tradition, specifically the findings of the Council of Ephesus against the heresy of Nestorianism. 

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9 minutes ago, LeviF said:

 

This would place you outside of the orthodox Christian tradition, specifically the findings of the Council of Ephesus against the heresy of Nestorianism. 

 

I'm not certain what you are claiming here, but to make it clear, I am completely OK with Jesus joint existence as God and human, if that is your complaint.

Not of fan of the early Gnostic beliefs, or others that claimed separation.

Either way Jesus was presented as male during his human existence, but God has no gender.

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4 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

I'm not certain what you are claiming here, but to make it clear, I am completely OK with Jesus joint existence as God and human, if that is your complaint.

Not of fan of the early Gnostic beliefs, or others that claimed separation.

Either way Jesus was presented as male during his human existence, but God has no gender.


Yes the issue at hand at Ephesus was whether the divine and human natures of Jesus of Nazareth were separate, thereby rendering Mary “mother of Christ,” as Nestorius and his followers claimed, rather than “mother of God” as the church had begun to refer to her. The council ruled against Nestorius and re-affirmed that Christ had two distinct, not separate, natures in union together in one person. 
 

As far as “gender” of God goes no, God does not have a male or female “gender” like we are born with. God, in the Christian tradition, is spirit and ultimately only is human in the united God-Man Christ (and even then in a way unique to him).  But God refers to himself almost exclusively using masculine language, including “man of war,” “Father,” “Son (in the person of Christ),” etc. God is referred to as “Father” over 150 times in the Bible, by my count. The creeds of the church, liturgy, tradition all reflect this. As pointed out by someone upthread, Jesus himself instructed his followers to address God as “Father.” 
 

On the other hand, if the Anglicans wish to further distance themselves from the historical Christian tradition, well I suppose that will be about as on brand as it gets lol

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8 hours ago, LeviF said:


Yes the issue at hand at Ephesus was whether the divine and human natures of Jesus of Nazareth were separate, thereby rendering Mary “mother of Christ,” as Nestorius and his followers claimed, rather than “mother of God” as the church had begun to refer to her. The council ruled against Nestorius and re-affirmed that Christ had two distinct, not separate, natures in union together in one person. 

 

A simple reading of 1 John would clear up the issue.

It is suggested that the epistle, among other motivations, was written to stop the emerging Gnostic view on the issue.

I think it's interesting that he starts out by establishing his bona fides as a direct witness, not some guy who was forming a views based on current and developing opinion, ie., Gnosics of the time.

     "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,...."

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17 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

representation matters and can and has been used for nefarious purposes.

https://www.britannica.com/story/the-long-history-of-how-jesus-came-to-resemble-a-whiteeuropean

 

Scholar Edward J. Blum and Paul Harvey argue that in the centuries after European colonization of the Americas, the image of a white Christ associated him with the logic of empire and could be used to justify the oppression of Native and African Americans.

In a multiracial but unequal America, there was a disproportionate representation of a white Jesus in the media. It wasn’t only Warner Sallman’s Head of Christ that was depicted widely; a large proportion of actors who have played Jesus on television and film have been white with blue eyes.

Pictures of Jesus historically have served many purposes, from symbolically presenting his power to depicting his actual likeness. But representation matters, and viewers need to understand the complicated history of the images of Christ they consume.

Much later, anti-Semitic forces in Europe including the Nazis would attempt to divorce Jesus totally from his Judaism in favor of an Aryan stereotype.

This Paul Harvey?  Heah. His statements on "If I was the devil" is Epic.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NoQHgjM_0

 

If I were the Devil
If I were the Devil

If I were the Prince of Darkness,
I'd want to engulf the whole world in darkness
And I'd have a third of its real estate
And four-fifths of its population
But I wouldn't be happy until I had seized
The ripest apple on the tree – thee
So I'd set about however necessary to take over the United States
I'd subvert the churches first
I'd begin with a campaign of whispers
With the wisdom of a serpent,
I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve
"Do as you please"
To the young I would whisper that the Bible is a myth
I would convince them that man created
God instead of the other way around
I would confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square
And the old, I would teach to pray after me
Our Father – which art in Washington
And then I'd get organized
I'd educate authors in
How to make Lurid literature exciting
So that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting
I'd threaten TV with dirtier movies and vice versa
I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could
I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction
I'd tranquilize the rest with pills
If I were the Devil I'd soon have families at war with themselves
Churches at war with themselves
And nations at war with themselves
Until each in it's turn, was consumed
And with promises of higher ratings,
I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames

If I were the Devil I would encourage schools
To refine young intellects
But neglect to discipline emotions, just let those run wild!
Until before you knew it
You'd have to have drug sniffing dogs
And metal detectors at every schoolhouse door
Within a decade
I'd have prisons overflowing
I'd have judges promoting pornography
Soon I could evict God from the courthouse
Then from the schoolhouse
And then from the houses of congress
And in His own churches I would substitute psychology
For religion and deify science
I would lure priests and pastors into
Misusing boys and girls and church money
If I were the Devil
I'd make the symbol of Easter an egg
And the symbol of Christmas a bottle
If I were the Devil, I would take from those who have
And give to those who wanted
Until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious
What will you bet
I could get whole states to promote gambling, as the way to get rich
I would caution against extremes
In hard work, in patriotism, in moral conduct
I would convince the young that marriage is old fashioned
That swinging is more fun
That what you see on TV
Is the way to be
And thus, I could undress you in public
And I could lure you into bed
With diseases for which there is no cure
In other words, if I were the Devil
I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing

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5 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

This Paul Harvey?  Heah. His statements on "If I was the devil" is Epic.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NoQHgjM_0

 

If I were the Devil
If I were the Devil

If I were the Prince of Darkness,
I'd want to engulf the whole world in darkness
And I'd have a third of its real estate
And four-fifths of its population
But I wouldn't be happy until I had seized
The ripest apple on the tree – thee
So I'd set about however necessary to take over the United States
I'd subvert the churches first
I'd begin with a campaign of whispers
With the wisdom of a serpent,
I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve
"Do as you please"
To the young I would whisper that the Bible is a myth
I would convince them that man created
God instead of the other way around
I would confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square
And the old, I would teach to pray after me
Our Father – which art in Washington
And then I'd get organized
I'd educate authors in
How to make Lurid literature exciting
So that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting
I'd threaten TV with dirtier movies and vice versa
I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could
I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction
I'd tranquilize the rest with pills
If I were the Devil I'd soon have families at war with themselves
Churches at war with themselves
And nations at war with themselves
Until each in it's turn, was consumed
And with promises of higher ratings,
I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames

If I were the Devil I would encourage schools
To refine young intellects
But neglect to discipline emotions, just let those run wild!
Until before you knew it
You'd have to have drug sniffing dogs
And metal detectors at every schoolhouse door
Within a decade
I'd have prisons overflowing
I'd have judges promoting pornography
Soon I could evict God from the courthouse
Then from the schoolhouse
And then from the houses of congress
And in His own churches I would substitute psychology
For religion and deify science
I would lure priests and pastors into
Misusing boys and girls and church money
If I were the Devil
I'd make the symbol of Easter an egg
And the symbol of Christmas a bottle
If I were the Devil, I would take from those who have
And give to those who wanted
Until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious
What will you bet
I could get whole states to promote gambling, as the way to get rich
I would caution against extremes
In hard work, in patriotism, in moral conduct
I would convince the young that marriage is old fashioned
That swinging is more fun
That what you see on TV
Is the way to be
And thus, I could undress you in public
And I could lure you into bed
With diseases for which there is no cure
In other words, if I were the Devil
I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing

And?...Is incredibly prophetic and insightful.  Freewill is part of the equation.  I don't agree with all his points here but I do agree with many.  Seems like the kinda guy I'd trust to discern the evolution of Bee Gee Jesus.

Edited by redtail hawk
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21 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

And?...Is incredibly prophetic and insightful.  Freewill is part of the equation.  I don't agree with all his points here but I do agree with many.  Seems like the kinda guy I'd trust to discern the evolution of Bee Gee Jesus.

he did that in 1965. thats the crazy part.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

This Paul Harvey?  Heah. His statements on "If I was the devil" is Epic.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9NoQHgjM_0

 

If I were the Devil
If I were the Devil

If I were the Prince of Darkness,
I'd want to engulf the whole world in darkness
And I'd have a third of its real estate
And four-fifths of its population
But I wouldn't be happy until I had seized
The ripest apple on the tree – thee
So I'd set about however necessary to take over the United States
I'd subvert the churches first
I'd begin with a campaign of whispers
With the wisdom of a serpent,
I would whisper to you as I whispered to Eve
"Do as you please"
To the young I would whisper that the Bible is a myth
I would convince them that man created
God instead of the other way around
I would confide that what's bad is good and what's good is square
And the old, I would teach to pray after me
Our Father – which art in Washington
And then I'd get organized
I'd educate authors in
How to make Lurid literature exciting
So that anything else would appear dull and uninteresting
I'd threaten TV with dirtier movies and vice versa
I'd peddle narcotics to whom I could
I'd sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction
I'd tranquilize the rest with pills
If I were the Devil I'd soon have families at war with themselves
Churches at war with themselves
And nations at war with themselves
Until each in it's turn, was consumed
And with promises of higher ratings,
I'd have mesmerizing media fanning the flames

If I were the Devil I would encourage schools
To refine young intellects
But neglect to discipline emotions, just let those run wild!
Until before you knew it
You'd have to have drug sniffing dogs
And metal detectors at every schoolhouse door
Within a decade
I'd have prisons overflowing
I'd have judges promoting pornography
Soon I could evict God from the courthouse
Then from the schoolhouse
And then from the houses of congress
And in His own churches I would substitute psychology
For religion and deify science
I would lure priests and pastors into
Misusing boys and girls and church money
If I were the Devil
I'd make the symbol of Easter an egg
And the symbol of Christmas a bottle
If I were the Devil, I would take from those who have
And give to those who wanted
Until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious
What will you bet
I could get whole states to promote gambling, as the way to get rich
I would caution against extremes
In hard work, in patriotism, in moral conduct
I would convince the young that marriage is old fashioned
That swinging is more fun
That what you see on TV
Is the way to be
And thus, I could undress you in public
And I could lure you into bed
With diseases for which there is no cure
In other words, if I were the Devil
I'd just keep right on doing what he's doing

 

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