A QB and Coaching thought exercise

[LABILLBACKER]

55 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Here’s another thought process for you
 

Put Josh Allen on the Bengals, throwing to Ja’Marr Chase and tee Higgins and throwing against our defense

 

Imagine Josh Allen throwing to wide-open wide, receivers all day sitting behind a line, they gave him all kinds of protection, and was opening up holes for the running game for Joe Mixon

 

How do you think Josh would’ve fared

 

 

The bottom line is Josh is a once in a lifetime generational talent. He's asked by his coaches to be 85% of the offense based on his surrounding support system. Josh with all his amazing athletic ability does his best to be Superman.  But the coaching asking this of him is both foolish,  selfish and unsustainable. The goal for every team should go beyond settling for playoff appearances. 

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Allen has the height and arm and brain to transition to a pure pocket passer as he ages.  We realistically have 10 more years of high end QB play from Allen.   Best case scenario, McDermott wins multiple super bowls with Allen, starting next year.  Worst case scenario, we are Jeff Fishered with McDermott. 

 

I don't think that Allen's going to be running the way he does in ten years, not even close.  I'll give him five, six tops of that.  Keep in mind too that because he has to do everything, he's a lot more likely to get injured.  He suffered one this year, due more to crap OL play, but still, we're lucky, he's lucky, that it hasn't been a knee or shoulder.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

When I think it had run its course. I understand why others are there. I am not. 

 

But Chaos could have just said "this a thread saying I want McDermott out" rather than the pseudo thought process nonsense.

Why are you not there? What indicators keep you from being there 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Allen has the height and arm and brain to transition to a pure pocket passer as he ages.  We realistically have 10 more years of high end QB play from Allen.   Best case scenario, McDermott wins multiple super bowls with Allen, starting next year.  Worst case scenario, we are Jeff Fishered with McDermott. 

You won't find a bigger Josh Allen fan than me, but I have totally lost faith in the coaching to find that outcome. They are in the process of Cam Newtoning him.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So bills coaching is net equal or negative as compared to every team they played? That’s funny. 

 

Well, we were outcoached by the Jets, twice, as they outplayed us but had inferior talent generally speaking.  At QB it wasn't even close.  

[Chaos]

7 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I don't think that Allen's going to be running the way he does in ten years, not even close.  I'll give him five, six tops of that.  Keep in mind too that because he has to do everything, he's a lot more likely to get injured.  He suffered one this year, due more to crap OL play, but still, we're lucky, he's lucky, that it hasn't been a knee or shoulder.  

 Ten years is based on this supposition. 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Chaos

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You won't find a bigger Josh Allen fan than me, but I have totally lost faith in the coaching to find that outcome. They are in the process of Cam Newtoning him.

 

Or more likely getting him injured so that he's a fraction of the player he was after 18 months (if lucky if that were to occur) of rehab.  

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Why are you not there? What indicators keep you from being there 

 

They keep winning. Their consistency keeps things on track in dealing with the adversity that any season (let alone this one) throws at them. The underlying analytics on the team's performance continue to be strong. Yes, they have failed to get the team over the hump in the post-season - but they have come back each time and gone again without ill effects. 

 

I get that there are questions. I think there is less credit in the bank than there was but I don't see them as having done so poorly that they must go and so it would take me to be convinced I had a clear upgrade available to me.

[US Egg]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But Chaos could have just said "this a thread saying I want McDermott out" rather than the pseudo thought process nonsense.

I thought it meant KAOS wants to switch HC’s with certain teams when he feels McD is the inferior HC.

[Big Turk]

I don't see what the point of this is?  You can never actually play the games or situations in real life so this is all nonsense that is made up in your mind with no way of ever proving anyone right or wrong.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Big Turk said:

I don't see what the point of this is?  You can never actually play the games or situations in real life so this is all nonsense that is made up in your mind with no way of ever proving anyone right or wrong.

 

It is a "Fire McDermott" thread pretending to have some more substance behind it.

[PBF81]

9 minutes ago, Chaos said:

 Ten years is based on this supposition. 

 

 

FWIW I agree with you.  

 

On Allen, my point is twofold.  

 

First, that his running/scrambling/etc. is a huge part of his game.  As a pure pocket passer in contrast, frankly, I'd rather have Burrow, or even Mahomes.  

 

Secondly, implied, that he doesn't have the OL to be able to play to that level as a pure pocket passer.  That's due to the GM/HC deficiencies here contrasted with there and elsewhere, at least the four teams that are playing today.  

[Chaos]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

FWIW I agree with you.  

 

On Allen, my point is twofold.  

 

First, that his running/scrambling/etc. is a huge part of his game.  As a pure pocket passer in contrast, frankly, I'd rather have Burrow, or even Mahomes.  

 

Secondly, implied, that he doesn't have the OL to be able to play to that level as a pure pocket passer.  That's due to the GM/HC deficiencies here contrasted with there and elsewhere, at least the four teams that are playing today.  

We don't know how good of a pocket passer he could be. We can't coach up a pocket. 

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a "Fire McDermott" thread pretending to have some more substance behind it.

Apparently ANYONE except McD could have coached this team to an undefeated season.  And breaking news, Josh is a top 5 QB.  There must be some subliminal bashing of Edmunds somewhere in there too 😂.

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We don't know how good of a pocket passer he could be. We can't coach up a pocket. 

 

Sure you can.  Do you believe that our OL was coached as well as it could have been?  I don't.  In fact, I don't have any faith that ANY unit on our team has been optimally coached.  

 

Having said that, I understand what you're saying, but part of my point, a big part, is that the talent on the team around him, or even on D as the team goes, in this specific discussion the OL, makes a huge difference.  Again, as you know.  

 

We do know that in the instances where he has had time in the pocket, he's still made questionable decisions, routinely ignored the higher percentage underneath stuff that log 1st Downs and keep the chains moving.  Just sayin'.  

[Chaos]

4 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Apparently ANYONE except McD could have coached this team to an undefeated season.  And breaking news, Josh is a top 5 QB.  There must be some subliminal bashing of Edmunds somewhere in there too 😂.

That is not what the original post says. 

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

Sure you can.  Do you believe that our OL was coached as well as it could have been?  I don't.  In fact, I don't have any faith that ANY unit on our team has been optimally coached.  

 

Having said that, I understand what you're saying, but part of my point, a big part, is that the talent on the team around him, or even on D as the team goes, in this specific discussion the OL, makes a huge difference.  Again, as you know.  

 

We do know that in the instances where he has had time in the pocket, he's still made questionable decisions, routinely ignored the higher percentage underneath stuff that log 1st Downs and keep the chains moving.  Just sayin'.  

can'y as in haven't. Not dismissing the future possibilty of creating a consistent passing pocket. 

[PBF81]

BTW, there have been some games, not a lot, but where he's been a fantastic pocket passer.  But he's not like Mahomes or Burrow in that regard.  

 

Remember, when they drafted Allen all they talked about was his huge/strong arm, and ability to make any throw.  No one ever mentioned any potential for him to run as he did, not once.  So that's gravy, unearned gravy, for Beane and to a lesser extent McD.  

 

But here's the thing on "the ability to make any throw," he shouldn't be ignoring the higher percentage throws regularly in favor of "any throw."  This isn't a video game.  That's what I'm referring to when I talk about coaching as it relates to him and a methodology in terms of running the offense.  

 

And if it ever got to a point where the coaches were desperately trying to get him to hit that underneath and short/medium higher percentage stuff and he was simply ignoring them, that'd be a whole other discussion.  I don't think that's where we are tho.  Do you?  

[GoBills808]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is a "Fire McDermott" thread pretending to have some more substance behind it.

It's a valid question. If the premise offends you there's no obligation to participate.

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

can't as in haven't. Not dismissing the future possibilty of creating a consistent passing pocket. 

 

Fair enough, but does anything in the organization now, after 6 years of McD being here and 5 Beane orchestrated Drafts suggest to you that this is in the offing?   

Edited January 29, 2023 by PBF81

[HappyDays]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think there is less credit in the bank than there was but I don't see them as having done so poorly that they must go and so it would take me to be convinced I had a clear upgrade available to me.

 

My take on it is that Ben Johnson looks like the NFL's next offensive genius, on the same level as Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan. I believe he will get his shot as a head coach after this coming season. If we have a similar disappointing playoff result next year I would not be shy about moving on from this regime and get the upstart young offensive genius in the building. Allen will be entering his age 28 season in 2024 so there is plenty of time for an offensive minded coach to get him a Super Bowl. The clock is ticking on Allen's career. If this regime can't even sniff a Super Bowl appearance after 4 years of elite QB play that is reason enough to move on IMO.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by HappyDays