Pat Williams on his new team and the Bills

[dave mcbride]

OK, so let's take the 3-13 out. It still leaves a 25-23 record. Nothing to write home about. I'm giving him this year. If this team doesn't produce, someone needs to hold the guy accountable. and no, 8-8 or 9-7 is not production. I'm talking a minimum of 10-6 and a playoff spot.

338182[/snapback]

23-25, actually.

[BuckeyeBill]

I just think that PW was sick and tired of being the second best defensive tackle on the team. He wants to be the core of the line, and he doesn't have that opportunity in Buffalo.

 

There's no reason for me to think that Buffalo is not as good a team as Minnesota. Switch the divisions, and Buffalo makes the playoffs last year and Minnesota sits out.

[Fezmid]

“I want to win some games first,

 

Umm, did PW's agent tell him that Buffalo won more games than the Vikes last year? And that the Bills have won more games than the Vikes for 2 of the last 3 seasons?

 

BTW -- where's the link? Why do people insist on posting an entire article instead of one simple link?

 

CW

[dave mcbride]

This whole thread was about Pat Williams and his ability to play every down. In my opinion, he cannot . He's most effective in a rotation and I still like the guy when used in that situation. At 33, he wanted full time starter $$ and didn't get it here.

 

You decided to take another opportunity to bash TD, something you enjoy on a daily basis. I question many a TD move over the last 4 years but I try to look at the postives and negatives. I think this team is going in the right direction and TD should get another 2 years to prove it out. The D looks good, the ST's look great and moves have been made to improve an inept Offense.

 

It's May, when optimism is the norm for a team with legit talent. Your " I dislike TD " position was understood by the TSW community the first 700 times you posted it. After a while, I have to view is as campaigning and adding little to the discussion. The above response adds nothing to the Pat Williams topic.

338114[/snapback]

 

first, i don't post daily, and secondly, i'm not a "basher" of donohoe, despite the fact that i have leveled a lot of criticism at him. i don't think in either/or terms. he's done a lot of good things, but ultimately there have been a lot of incorrect choices that have held the bills back. look, even factoring in the 3-13 season, they've been a sub-500 team since despite being in fine cap shape. how else can you judge the guy as a bills executive (note i'm leaving the steelers out of this, since i care not at all about that team's success).

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

23-25, actually.

338191[/snapback]

 

Thanks.

 

Signed,

Mathematically Challenged in PA

[dave mcbride]

I just think that PW was sick and tired of being the second best defensive tackle on the team.  He wants to be the core of the line, and he doesn't have that opportunity in Buffalo.

 

There's no reason for me to think that Buffalo is not as good a team as Minnesota.  Switch the divisions, and Buffalo makes the playoffs last year and Minnesota sits out.

338194[/snapback]

he'll still be second best. kevin williams was possibly the best defensive tackle in the nfc last year.

[Bill from NYC]

first, i don't post daily, and secondly, i'm not a "basher" of donohoe, despite the fact that i have leveled a lot of criticism at him. i don't think in either/or terms. he's done a lot of good things, but ultimately there have been a lot of incorrect choices that have held the bills back.  look, even factoring in the 3-13 season, they've been a sub-500 team since despite being in fine cap shape.  how else can you judge the guy as a bills executive (note i'm leaving the steelers out of this, since i care not at all about that team's success).

338196[/snapback]

 

If I may take a middle ground here......

dave, you are right. There has been plenty to complain about with TD at the helm, most notably GW and KG. These men were far less than adequate and it was TD who did hire them.

 

BUT, the 3-13 was worse than it looked. TD took over a team on which some of the highest paid players were the likes of John Fina, a washed up Henry Jones, Jerry Ostroski, Sam Rogers and a crippled John Holocek. It can take YEARS cap wise to clean up a mess like this.

TD has brought respectability back to Buffalo. There is of course a lot of work ahead. Personally, I think that if JP is a bust, TD should be shown the door. If JP can play, the team looks good from where I sit, and well coached to boot.

Jmo.

[Mark VI]

first, i don't post daily, and secondly, i'm not a "basher" of donohoe, despite the fact that i have leveled a lot of criticism at him. i don't think in either/or terms. he's done a lot of good things, but ultimately there have been a lot of incorrect choices that have held the bills back.  look, even factoring in the 3-13 season, they've been a sub-500 team since despite being in fine cap shape.  how else can you judge the guy as a bills executive (note i'm leaving the steelers out of this, since i care not at all about that team's success).

338196[/snapback]

 

Fair enough. But quoting Florio at profootballtalk in past threads has as much credibility as the National Enquirer. Plus TD did take over a complete mess in 2001, as Simon stated. How we won 8 games in 2002 is beyond me.

 

TD made 2 glaring mistakes since his arrival, which was hiring GW as the Coach and sticking with an ineffective,aging DB at QB. Those decisions alone put us behind by 2 years, IMO. He seems to have chosen wisely the 2nd time around in the coaching dept. The recent QB switch won't be known for a year or 2 but aquiring Holcomb as a backup is very reassuring that the depth is there, just in case.

 

I think he gets 2 more years and then he deserves the boiling tar treatment. The drafting of McGahee in 2003 and the followup of Evans and Losman in 2004 shows some effort to upgrade positions he felt were lacking top production. Seems to have done well the past few years with Veteran Free Agent signings. Top ST's play and a good Defense is always a good starting point. If the Offense can improve, then we have something here. Realistic optimism is warranted.

 

I put the focus on Mularkey and the coaches, from this point on. This roster looks to be the best in 5 years. Time will tell.

[EndZoneCrew]

Was it a coincidence that his worst year was when he did not have Teddy W. or Big Sam next to him???? I think not!

[dave mcbride]

Fair enough. But quoting Florio at profootballtalk in past threads has as much credibility as the National Enquirer. Plus TD did take over a complete mess in 2001, as Simon stated. How we won 8 games in 2002 is beyond me.

 

TD made 2 glaring mistakes since his arrival, which was hiring GW as the Coach and sticking with an ineffective,aging DB at QB. Those decisions alone put us behind by 2 years, IMO.  He seems to have chosen wisely the 2nd time around in the coaching dept. The recent QB switch won't be known for a year or 2 but aquiring Holcomb as a backup is very reassuring that the depth is there, just in case.

 

  I think he gets 2 more years and then he deserves the boiling tar treatment. The drafting of McGahee in 2003 and the followup of Evans and Losman in 2004 shows some effort to upgrade positions he felt were lacking top production. Seems to have done well the past few years with Veteran Free Agent signings. Top ST's play and a good Defense is always a good starting point. If the Offense can improve, then we have something here. Realistic optimism is warranted.

 

I put the focus on Mularkey and the coaches, from this point on. This roster looks to be the best in 5 years. Time will tell.

338224[/snapback]

 

there's a difference between quoting florio and endorsing him, and in any event i think i've only done it once. i'd also add that picking johnson over flutie was clearly a bad move, but i do realize that hindsight is 20/20. i also think williams was responsible for that more than donohoe.

 

re 2001, a lot of that was of donohoe's own making, and there's a lot of mythology surrounding the situation. he cut guys that he didn't want (but who i think would have been solid players for the bills that year if not other teams) whose bonus numbers accelerated into the 01 year. if he hadn't cut them, the problem wouldn't have been as big. the strategy, i guess, was to deliberately create a bad cap situation so that 02 would be good, and they were in fact in excellent cap shape by 02. the flipside of that, though, is the need to accept blame for inflicting a 3-13 season instead of blaming it on the cap. 3-13 is 3-13 no matter how you slice it, and the team had been 30-18 in the three previous years (i give the bills an extra victory due to the "just give it to him" game against the pats).

 

as for the future, i think he deserves 2 more years but it may be the case that he only gets one. i'm guessing losman will struggle some, which will certainly impact their record. then again, wilson seems to like him a lot, so maybe he's immune for another year. the coach is good and the team has good surrounding talent, so perhaps they'll end up getting into the playoffs. i sure hope so.

[34-78-83]

Gee, that's funny.  I distinctly remember Ron Edward's replacing PW on passing downs because of his ability to rush the passer instead of merely taking up a defender so the rush could come from somewhere else.  But maybe I'm wrong.

 

Edwards' role was the same as PW. Push and disrupt the pocket. If a sack comes your way due to the QB falling into the opportunistic position, that's just icing on the cake. I also was not arguing that PW was in proper shape to play on all downs.

 

Well, except against quality opponents in our own conference with the game on the line.

338190[/snapback]

This would assume that a DT would play somehow differently with the game on the line than at other times. If you look at all teams statistics on a game by game basis, you will magically find that the best stats come against the worst teams.

[BuffOrange]

I don't think anybody would be saying he's "well past his prime" if he was still here. He's got more left in the tank than Adams.

[todd]

I think Pat is a great player, and I think he's getting the typical "He's not a Bill any more so let's trash him" treatment here.

 

Pat is allowed his opinions. Before he left he stated that he wanted to stay. He only had good things to say about Buffalo. At this point, he is commenting on what he thinks will help his popularity on the Vikings. I think he's wrong, but whatever. Jerry Gray has shown to be a far better defensive coach than Cotrell over the past few years, anyway.

 

Even though Pat is a great player, Sam Adams is better. And Pat is replaceable.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

Williams Brings Size And Savvy

By Tim Yotter

Date: May 14, 2005

 

 

“I’ll teach them all the small stuff – the technique, how to line up right, how to get off the ball and then most of all, win,” Pat Williams said of working with the younger players.

 

 

What does PW know about winning?

[Lori]

I don't think anybody would be saying he's "well past his prime" if he was still here.  He's got more left in the tank than Adams.

338298[/snapback]

Debatable - Adams might have higher milage, but Williams is slightly older....

 

You and todd make a valid point, though. I'll repeat todd's quote:

... I think he's getting the typical "He's not a Bill any more so let's trash him" treatment here.

 

True enough. That works both ways, though - if Pat had re-signed here, he wouldn't be trashing TD, either.

Just like Drew's comment about getting his kids Cowboys jerseys and dumping the stuff from 'the other team' - well hell, what did we expect him to say?

[tornado681]

time will tell....but judging by what FA bills have done after they left Buffalo, I'd say he's doooomed

337807[/snapback]

 

what about winfield??

[Simon]

you need to realize that i don't care what he did with the steelers.

 

This is an oft-implied position around here and it is something I still don't quite get. Why, when assessing somebody's ability to perform a task, would one choose to only examine a small portion of the person's work? Ignoring 75% of what Donahoe has done when considering the question of whether he can be a successful NFLGM strikes me as allowing your thinking to follow a latently pre-determined path. Only by intentionally ignoring the fact that he as put together teams that have won 13, 12, 11, 11, 11, 10, and 10 games can you say that "i fear that donohoe is merely a mediocrity,... not good enough to manage better than 8-8 or 9-7". That could only sound credible to someone who already believed it before they decided it.

 

 

 

i know you're biased toward donohoe,

 

If believing he's a good GM after watching him for a decade is a subdefinition of exhibiting bias, then I am that. I try to keep as objective a perspective as a football fan can; having been able to avoid subjectivity when observing him as a non-Bill has helped me to be more analytical when assessing his tendencies, as well as flick boogers at him when warranted. For example, from day one I've expressed chagrin with the poor results he's had throughout his career w/ QB's and 1strndpicks (naturally as soon as I whined about it he spent some 1strounders on QB's who have done nothing for usthus far ). Another example might be my stated dissatisfaction with his decision to let PhatPat walk.

The past can tell much about the future as any good historian could teach you ( ), and your tendency toward subjectivity in ignoring said past in the prediction of unscene future elicits some circumspection that you may actually be exhibiting more bias than me, doing so by only choosing to even consider what the work of Donahoe/Modrak has done for you "personally" as opposed to a thorough examination of all the available information.

 

Cya

 

 

And AD, you're right that Phat wasn't a sackmaster, but I don't think you're implying that he didn't make a lot of monster plays on big downs in important games. I'm thinking we're gonna miss that badmutha in the Bills next playoff game.

[Alaska Darin]

And AD, you're right that Phat wasn't a sackmaster, but I don't think you're implying that he didn't make a lot of monster plays on big downs in important games. I'm thinking we're gonna miss that badmutha in the Bills next playoff game.

338798[/snapback]

He's not the same guy he was even a season and a half ago. I don't doubt he can do it when he puts his mind to it but it's not nearly as consistant as it was not too long ago. I really like PW - he's one of my favorite BILLS of all time but there's no way he's worth the jack he got for the term.

[Simon]

He's not the same guy he was even a season and a half ago. I don't doubt he can do it when he puts his mind to it but it's not nearly as consistant as it was not too long ago.

Yeah he's older and heavier than he once was, and he's reached the point in his career where he's got to pick his spots to be the most effective. But when it's time to go, the boy can still go.

During the reg season, I'm not too worried about the kind of drop-off we're bound to see. But it's during those elimination games that I'm afraid we're all really going to miss having a guy like that around.

Oh well, here's hoping TimAnderson is an undiagnosed psychotic.....

Cya

[34-78-83]

Yeah he's older and heavier than he once was, and he's reached the point in his career where he's got to pick his spots to be the most effective. But when it's time to go, the boy can still go.

During the reg season, I'm not too worried about the kind of drop-off we're bound to see. But it's during those elimination games that I'm afraid we're all really going to miss having a guy like that around.

Oh well, here's hoping TimAnderson is an undiagnosed psychotic..... 

Cya

338891[/snapback]

 

I feel that Edwards is the one we should be worried about hoping to fill PW's shoes. He's going to get every opportunity it is probably a lot closer to being "ready". How well he does at stopping the run and occupying blockers will be the key.

 

And AD, you're right that Phat wasn't a sackmaster, but I don't think you're implying that he didn't make a lot of monster plays on big downs in important games. I'm thinking we're gonna miss that badmutha in the Bills next playoff game.

I think he WAS implying this but I could be wrong