Tommy Callahan Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: It seems odd. Once Ukraine joins NATO then it would seem unnecessary…no? you think they will actually do it? Everything I have read states that even if they do, it won't be till after the war. And talk of Democratic conditions needing to be met. Ukraine’s future is in NATO, U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan says - POLITICO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nato-summit-results-in-brief-mixed-news-for-ukraine-hope-for-sweden-and-a-response-to-russia/ar-AA1dM4qT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 Just now, Chris farley said: you think they will actually do it? Everything I have read states that even if they do, it won't be till after the war. And talk of Democratic conditions needing to be met. Ukraine’s future is in NATO, U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan says - POLITICO https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nato-summit-results-in-brief-mixed-news-for-ukraine-hope-for-sweden-and-a-response-to-russia/ar-AA1dM4qT From what I understand it HAS TO BE after the war. Per NATO’s charter: No nation can be admitted while they’re involved in an active conflict…or so I heard one of the talking heads say. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: From what I understand it HAS TO BE after the war. Per NATO’s charter: No nation can be admitted while they’re involved in an active conflict…or so I heard one of the talking heads say. That makes total sense as if they did, it would trigger the Collective defense and a huge escalation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, Chris farley said: That makes total sense as if they did, it would trigger the Collective defense and a huge escalation. Of course Ukraine won't be admitted to NATO while a war is ongoing. We might as well simply declare war on Russia. Not gonna happen. But Ukraine In NATO (whether/when/under what terms) remains a huge bargaining chip to what will, someday, be a negotiated end to the fighting. May that day come sooner rather than later ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 30 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Of course Ukraine won't be admitted to NATO while a war is ongoing. We might as well simply declare war on Russia. Not gonna happen. But Ukraine In NATO (whether/when/under what terms) remains a huge bargaining chip to what will, someday, be a negotiated end to the fighting. May that day come sooner rather than later ... From the limited reporting on the details out of the G7/NATO summit. it sounds like they would have to get back to a reasonable economic position coupled with reestablishing elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chris farley said: The military industrial complex supports that. same with the ones invested in them. This war is going to end with negotiations. IF this goes through, it's the EU telling Russia they can't just wait everyone out until everyone gets bored and Russia gets what it wants. Meaning a long war strategy is less viable. Meaning peace happens sooner. But it's Europe and Military commitments. So I'll believe it when I see it, for any European country west of the Oder or the Danube to commit to it that is. Edited July 19, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Is the small incursion over yet? Is this as long as it takes? Have we run out of other people’s money yet? winning the cold war takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: This war is going to end with negotiations. IF this goes through, it's the EU telling Russia they can't just wait everyone out until everyone gets bored and Russia gets what it wants. Meaning a long war strategy is less viable. Meaning peace happens sooner. But it's Europe and Military commitments. So I'll believe it when I see it, for any European country west of the Oder or the Danube commits to it that is. I hope it does end that way and sooner, than later. outside of all the outside influence in that country, eventually Ukraine/Russia will have to establish a border, and both seem to differ on where that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 Just now, Chris farley said: I hope it does end that way and sooner, than later. outside of all the outside influence in that country, eventually Ukraine/Russia will have to establish a border, and both seem to differ on where that is. Yes they certainly do. I want those disputes resolved firmly in Ukraine's favor. For instance, Russia's annexation of Ukrainian land corresponds almost exactly to the Novorossiya breakaway state outlined by the Donbas Separatists back in the 2010s. Which incorporates all of Ukraine's coastline and its most economically viable areas. Keeping it is a non-starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Yes they certainly do. I want those disputes resolved firmly in Ukraine's favor. For instance, Russia's annexation of Ukrainian land corresponds almost exactly to the Novorossiya breakaway state outlined by the Donbas Separatists back in the 2010s. Which incorporates all of Ukraine's coastline and its most economically viable areas. Keeping it is a non-starter. I think you just explained the reason for the war and why its continuing. those disputed regions are even more important now, for geopolitical and energy reasons. since the Nord pipeline was blown. You know Crimea is like 70% Russians, very small percentage Ukrainian? Demographics of Crimea - Wikipedia https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2020-04-03/russia-love The Tatar population has been growing fast since the ban was lifted. they are not fans of Ukraine or Russia. As neither country has been warm to Muslims. eff, the Russians tried to get rid of them in the 1940's. Kinda how traditional Ukrainians HATE Russia due to the Holodomor and forcing them to the front lines (cannon fodder) against the nazis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars So many things at play outside the basic narrative we read in the news. Edited July 19, 2023 by Chris farley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chris farley said: So many things at play outside the basic narrative we read in the news. Correct. Which is probably why nobody who participates in this thread on a regular basis utilizes the basic narrative from the news. Europe though, oddly enough, has gone from a bunch of profit obsessed hedonists who would sell their grandparents for a 15% annual return in their index fund...to openly debating funding the whole Ukrainian army indefinitely. This is the brave new world Russia created by deciding to invade. And since Russia just threatened to attack any ship of any country docking in any Ukrainian port... I don't think they're in the mood for peace unless they're convinced war will not get them what they want, at a reasonable price. Edited July 19, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Correct. Which is probably why nobody who participates in this thread on a regular basis utilizes the basic narrative from the news. Europe though, oddly enough, has gone from a bunch of profit obsessed hedonists who would sell their grandparents for a 15% annual return in their index fund...to openly debating funding the whole Ukrainian army indefinitely. This is the brave new world Russia created by deciding to invade. And since Russia just threatened to attack any ship of any country docking in any Ukrainian port... I don't think they're in the mood for peace unless they're convinced war will not get them what they want, at a reasonable price. Bullies tend to only learn one way. But I think it's a tough sell for Ukraine to get crimea back at this point. Not so much outside or in the news. But for the fact Ukrainians are only 7 % of the Crimean population. Edited July 19, 2023 by Chris farley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 7 hours ago, Chris farley said: But I think it's a tough sell for Ukraine to get crimea back at this point. Not so much outside or in the news. But for the fact Ukrainians are only 7 % of the Crimean population. They'd need a real army and a creditable air force that can take airspace from the Russians when the Russians want to keep it. Right now they have a real army and an air force that that gets its hits in when it can and lives to fight another day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 36 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: They'd need a real army and a creditable air force that can take airspace from the Russians when the Russians want to keep it. Right now they have a real army and an air force that that gets its hits in when it can and lives to fight another day. Ukraine has had 2 armies wiped out so far and right now is halfway to wiping out the 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said: Ukraine has had 2 armies wiped out so far and right now is halfway to wiping out the 3rd. ...Sure? You're the first person to bring this claim up in this thread, so where does it come from? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 FD1023 from trusted FBI informant, then in turn hidden by FBI from congress. Crickets from useful idiots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 18 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: They'd need a real army and a creditable air force that can take airspace from the Russians when the Russians want to keep it. Right now they have a real army and an air force that that gets its hits in when it can and lives to fight another day. Even then. how does one own an Island/Peninsula that has 90% population of the other country? maintain it? mass deportations? seems like it would be on par with us peacekeeping in areas we are not liked. I just don't see how the Jeanie gets back in the bottle with so few Ukrainians in Crimea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Chris farley said: Even then. how does one own an Island/Peninsula that has 90% population of the other country? maintain it? mass deportations? seems like it would be on par with us peacekeeping in areas we are not liked. I just don't see how the Jeanie gets back in the bottle with so few Ukrainians in Crimea. Ask Quebec. Somehow, they make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 21 hours ago, B-Man said: Yes, it sucks that the pro-Putin side isn't better represented, is that right? Maybe if Hitler had better media support in the US during WW2 things would not have been as bad. How stupid! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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