Evaluation of Guards at OBD

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, TFBillsfan said:

While I believe Spencer Brown has potential, let’s slow our roll. Spencer was a huge liability against the Titans and will need to significantly improve if the Bills are going to reach their ultimate goal. Hopefully the OL stays healthy and continues to get better as the season progresses.

 

Teller would have been solid at OG but Spain was a liability at the time. Sometimes players just need a new start.

 

 

I mean his one full season as a Bills starter Spain gave up zero sacks. Then they paid him and whatever happened happened. Whether he lost focus or came back overweight (he has had issues with that in his career) or fell out with coaches.... but it was pretty clear very early last year that something was off even before the Tennessee game where he no showed. When he is focussed and in shape Quinton Spain is a really solid NFL guard. 

 

EDIT: I agree with you on Brown. I thought he played really poorly at Tennessee having been really good against Houston and KC. The potential is obviously there but there is "a lot of meat left on the bone" as McDermott would say. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by GunnerBill

[colin]

we clearly need an upgrade on the interior line, Ford being trash is a big problem.  I think our most correctable issue on OL and DL is schematic.  Our OL just can't handle stunts at all, like zero.  on the DL, i think depending on who is on the pitch the opponents know where they can double and just an quick win and use that to reduce the impact of our pass rush.

 

hope they figure it out during the bye week.

[Stevie Ray]

Well, it can never get any worse than the play of the human turnstile, Joe Panos. 🤢

[BillsShredder83]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Brad Butler was really getting good, and then he retired as a young guy to go into politics. Which didn't work out for him.

 

Urbik was decent for a while, a tough guy but not really athletic. Ross Tucker was solid too. Ostroski was OK.

 

But I'm starting to run dry after that.

 

Two or three have been mentioned before. Levitre was good and big Ruben Brown is still underrated, an absolute road grader.

 

The Super Bowl guys of course, Davis and Ritcher. But since those two not a ton.

Damn forgot about Butler. I remember that one stinging. I dont think he was great, but being good on those teams, felt like great lol do not miss that!

[vincec]

To paraphrase Rick Pitino, Ruben Brown isn't walking out the tunnel. If the Bills OL is going to improve this season and give the team a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, then they are going to need improvement from the players they currently have.

 

Brown will need to avoid the rookie wall and improve over the course of the season, Williams will need to settle in at guard and show that his problems at Carolina were injury related, and Dawkins will need to get back to his pre-COVID form. I think Morse and Feliciano are what they are at this point but if the other three can pick up their games then I think the line will be much stronger as a whole.

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, vincec said:

To paraphrase Rick Pitino, Ruben Brown isn't walking out the tunnel. If the Bills OL is going to improve this season and give the team a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, then they are going to need improvement from the players they currently have.

 

Brown will need to avoid the rookie wall and improve over the course of the season, Williams will need to settle in at guard and show that his problems at Carolina were injury related, and Dawkins will need to get back to his pre-COVID form. I think Morse and Feliciano are what they are at this point but if the other three can pick up their games then I think the line will be much stronger as a whole.

 

The O-line in my opinion isn't a problem especially since Brown has taken over at RT and D.Williams has kicked inside. Dawkins and Brown are a very good tackle combo thus far, Mitch is a high-end pass blocking center who does the little things and brings leadership to the center position, D.Williams has played well at guard thus far and even Mongo is decent at LG.

 

I think the roster is so strong that having a player like Mongo looking OK appears like it is a weak link. Whereas in the past when the team would be rolling out 5-6 subpar starters having a guy being OK was viewed as not being an issue. 

 

Whereas when you are very strong and deep across the board a player being "OK" can look like a weakness and an area in need of an upgrade. IF The Bills had the cap space to bring in Norwell I would be all for it. But the Bills just don't have the cap space nor is there any other good O-line talent that would make sense to be out on the market.

 

Going with the current line isn't an issue in my opinion. The worst player on the line (Mongo) is still a respectable starting caliber player. 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The O-line in my opinion isn't a problem especially since Brown has taken over at RT and D.Williams has kicked inside. Dawkins and Brown are a very good tackle combo thus far, Mitch is a high-end pass blocking center who does the little things and brings leadership to the center position, D.Williams has played well at guard thus far and even Mongo is decent at LG.

 

I think the roster is so strong that having a player like Mongo looking OK appears like it is a weak link. Whereas in the past when the team would be rolling out 5-6 subpar starters having a guy being OK was viewed as not being an issue. 

 

Whereas when you are very strong and deep across the board a player being "OK" can look like a weakness and an area in need of an upgrade. IF The Bills had the cap space to bring in Norwell I would be all for it. But the Bills just don't have the cap space nor is there any other good O-line talent that would make sense to be out on the market.

 

Going with the current line isn't an issue in my opinion. The worst player on the line (Mongo) is still a respectable starting caliber player. 

 

Brown was a problem at Tennessee. The line did not play well. It can be put down to the normal growing pains of a rookie but he has to play better than that for us to start crowning him.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

This guy needs to go ⬇️

 

Props to Freddie's Dead for being first.

[billsfan89]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brown was a problem at Tennessee. The line did not play well. It can be put down to the normal growing pains of a rookie but he has to play better than that for us to start crowning him.

I would have to watch the game again but I thought Brown did OK against a tough matchup in the Titans game. Overall I didn’t think the Oline was the issue in that game, could it have been better? Of course but I think the bad QB sneak is making people blame the Oline more than needed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Imma put this here:  Good analysis of interior OL play by Skarekrow on Buffalo Rumblings. 

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2021/10/27/22747737/all-22-analysis-buffalo-bills-interior-offensive-line

 

Even if you don't agree with him on all points, he puts a bunch of film up there and you can roll your own conclusion.  For example, his play 3 is also a play analyzed by Cover1 who point out that essentially it's a "pick" on Morse - the Titans understand that the Bills blocking scheme calls for Feliciano to pass his man to Morse, and in the process the defender uses the pass to knock Morse off balance and give him a rushing lane.  I don't think it's a "chemistry" issue?

 

He puts his bottom line up front: while the IOL may be a "weak link" at times, it's a weak link in a fairly strong chain:

 

Quote

Let’s start with a disclaimer. This is coming from a place of self-scouting and embracing the idea of “growth mindset” that head coach Sean McDermott preaches. While a lot of the below focuses on “problem areas” with the interior offensive line, let me be very clear on a few things. The Buffalo Bills:

score on 52.9 percent of their drives. That’s number one in the league

average 2.88 points per drive, tied with Dallas for best in the league

have the fourth-best turnover rate per drive

have the third-best sack rate in the NFL

run game averages 4.4 yards per carry (this is pretty much average)

Even assuming the interior offensive line is a “weak link” for the Bills, that’s still an impressive chain so far this year. Let’s peep some film.

 

Good points all, but I suspect that if you looked at OL performance in the two games the Bills lost, you would find that the overall percentages are deceptive - a sort of "on average the duck is dead" where there's a cluster of shots to the L and a cluster of shots to the R.

 

Quote

Based on those two games, I can say that the KC performance seemed a lot stronger overall. A common issue against Tennessee was the lack of push. Remember my use of the phrase “not a mauler” over the summer? Still applies. Also, all three interior lineman had some struggles picking up lateral blocks.

 

My $0.02 is that when these guys are getting beat, it's somewhat by design, meaning it seems as though the pass rush is well-schemed to take advantage of weak points in a zone blocking scheme - for example, the scheme calls for one defender to be passed to the next OLman, but that OLman is already engaged and can't readily pass his guy off to the next OL.   Then instead of two properly balanced OLmen engaged with good technique, they wind up with one OLman with nothing to do and two guys who are off balance and "behind the defender".  What I know about OL protection schemes could be written on a nickle and lost, but that can't be the best way to function with guys who aren't "maulers".

 

Hopefully this is something the Bills looked at in some depth during the bye.

[GunnerBill]

59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

My $0.02 is that when these guys are getting beat, it's somewhat by design, meaning it seems as though the pass rush is well-schemed to take advantage of weak points in a zone blocking scheme - for example, the scheme calls for one defender to be passed to the next OLman, but that OLman is already engaged and can't readily pass his guy off to the next OL.   Then instead of two properly balanced OLmen engaged with good technique, they wind up with one OLman with nothing to do and two guys who are off balance and "behind the defender".  What I know about OL protection schemes could be written on a nickle and lost, but that can't be the best way to function with guys who aren't "maulers".

 

Hopefully this is something the Bills looked at in some depth during the bye.

 

We have definitely struggled with well designed and called stunts. I just think we are pretty average talent wise up front. Dion hasn't been at his best. Morse has played fine but he isn't a star. Brown is a rookie and then the guard positions have been much talked about.