Covid-19 discussion and humor thread [Was: CDC says don't touch your face to avoid Covid19...Vets to the rescue!

[plenzmd1]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

TBH, I think it's a response to an overwhelmed and overly bureaucratic reporting process that has been legitimately frustrating members of the covid-19 task force such as Dr. Birx.  They are trying to transition to a once-daily update of an online spreadsheet.

 

But, given the background of an administration that has a pattern of misrepresenting the public health situation not to mention politicizing it, it is making a number of people (such as myself) extremely nervous

 

I don't know about worldometer ....

 

From the horse's mouth, positive cases in Sweden are not zero

https://www.covid19insweden.com/en/

 

I mean, if cases in each region have increased between 1% and 8% over the last 7 days, there is no way that "positives are now basically zero", right?

i agree on first point on data..too scattershot across regions and states. But is scary if we think Trump can manipulate it, but man that would be way to risky no?

 

Worldometer has been pretty spot on..maybe the difference is cases are actives and positives are new tests? Although they have 62K active cases...kinda like we both said above LOL

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by plenzmd1

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

i agree on first point on data..too scattershot across regions and states. But is scary if we think Trump can manipulate it, but man that would be way to risky no?

 

Worldometer has been pretty spot on..maybe the difference is cases are actives and positives are new tests? Although they have 62K active cases...kinda like we both said above LOL

 

I think Worldometer is fine, but Sweden's reporting system takes its sweet time.  When their data source lags, Worldometer lags.

 

Here's an article about some of the problems State Departments of Health are having in tracking covid-19 test data.

I'm gonna guess it's not any better on the hospital side.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/upshot/coronavirus-response-fax-machines.html?fbclid=IwAR1NMuiJglyCjfaNbjdUOG3Gqr2C3OqYXDe8vkcUB1k8pJ-votqbMwe075k

[LB3]

You'd like to know the true worth a one size fits all lockdown would have had if the leader who tests negative everyday wore a mask for optics?

 

Do you believe New York and Nebraska should have been treated the same?

 

23 minutes ago, Figster said:

I want to know what the true worth of a unified lockdown across the US would have been with leadership at the top intelligent enough to do something as simple as wearing a mask.

 

 

 

[Figster]

20 minutes ago, LB3 said:

You'd like to know the true worth a one size fits all lockdown would have had if the leader who tests negative everyday wore a mask for optics?

 

Do you believe New York and Nebraska should have been treated the same?

 

 

Its called setting a good example, not sending mixed signals to a country in dire need of clarity.

 

When I can climb in a car and drive from NY to Nebraska in under 24 hours. Contaminating everyone I come in contact with,

 

Absolutely...

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Figster

[Punching Bag]

7 minutes ago, LB3 said:

Do you believe New York and Nebraska should have been treated the same?

 

Yes treated the same - plan for all based on circumstances and measurements not according political will, whether or not allowing this will help or hurt campaign contributors or election chances, etc.

[LB3]

7 minutes ago, Figster said:

When I can climb in a car and drive from NY to Nebraska in under 24 hours. Contaminating everyone I come in contact with,

 

Absolutely...

 

 

So Nebraska should have shut down in March for a virus that hadn't hit there yet? Then when it did finally hit, stay locked down even longer.

 

New York, having been hit hardest earlier,  should have stayed locked down until it made it's way slowly across the rest of country?

9 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Yes treated the same - plan for all based on circumstances and measurements not according political will, whether or not allowing this will help or hurt campaign contributors or election chances, etc.

 

[plenzmd1]

18 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Yes treated the same - plan for all based on circumstances and measurements not according political will, whether or not allowing this will help or hurt campaign contributors or election chances, etc.

Then shut NY, NJ, MA..the whole Northeast..shut it all down now

[Bad Things]

30 minutes ago, LB3 said:

You'd like to know the true worth a one size fits all lockdown would have had if the leader who tests negative everyday wore a mask for optics?

 

Do you believe New York and Nebraska should have been treated the same?

 

 

 

Yes

[Punching Bag]

3 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Then shut NY, NJ, MA..the whole Northeast..shut it all down now

 

They would have had to have a consistent plan first - which they did not - not just states which disagree with president - open it all up.

[plenzmd1]

Just now, Bad Things said:

 

Yes

why? Do you think NY should be in total lockdown mode now?

Just now, Limeaid said:

 

They would have had to have a consistent plan first - which they did not - not just states which disagree with president - open it all up.

what in the world are you trying to say here?

[Figster]

7 minutes ago, LB3 said:

So Nebraska should have shut down in March for a virus that hadn't hit there yet? Then when it did finally hit, stay locked down even longer.

 

New York, having been hit hardest earlier,  should have stayed locked down until it made it's way slowly across the rest of country?

 

My point is without a unified approach the whole country could continue the spread going from one hot spot to another for God only knows how long. As soon as one hot spot gets under control a new hot spot emerges. The virus can travel long distances as fast as a person in a car, bus or plane can carry it. It knows no boundries.

 

Nobody in our country is safe until everyone in our country is safe from Covid 19.

 

With all due respect...

[shoshin]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

 

The way I read it is this: Total deaths are returning to their normal level. One way to interpret that is, "Hey situation normal, stop worrying." 

 

My take as someone who doesn't study any of this is: "We have a lot more people dying from Covid but that's offset by (1) people not getting other transmissible diseases due to masks/distancing, (2) lots of other causes of deaths are down (think: car accidents for example)." Now there may be some other causes of death increasing due to people not getting medical care as well. But in total, the number of deaths is approaching its "normal range." 

 

Happy to hear from anyone more knowledgeable about this chart.

 

24 minutes ago, LB3 said:

So Nebraska should have shut down in March for a virus that hadn't hit there yet? Then when it did finally hit, stay locked down even longer.

 

New York, having been hit hardest earlier,  should have stayed locked down until it made it's way slowly across the rest of country?

 

 

My view on this is not what you propose. A national plan is not one where 330M people do the exact same thing. A national plan is one where every region gets treated with the same standard (the CDC standard that only NYS seems to follow looks about right) and the government manages outbreaks and increases regionally with behavior changes and funneling resources.

 

There was no need for people in Montana to be doing the same things as NYC Metro in April.  

Edited July 15, 2020 by shoshin

[plenzmd1]

7 minutes ago, Figster said:

My point is without a unified approach the whole country could continue the spread going from one hot spot to another for God only knows how long. As soon as one hot spot gets under control a new hot spot emerges. The virus can travel long distances as fast as a person in a car, bus or plane can carry it. It knows no boundries.

 

Nobody in our country is safe until everyone in our country is safe from Covid 19.

 

With all due respect...

Do you think NY and Va say should have the same lockdowns and rules etc now governing in CA? 

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, shoshin said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

 

The way I read it is this: Total deaths are returning to their normal level. One way to interpret that is, "Hey situation normal, stop worrying." 

 

My take as someone who doesn't study any of this is: "We have a lot more people dying from Covid but that's offset by (1) people not getting other transmissible diseases due to masks/distancing, (2) lots of other causes of deaths are down (think: car accidents for example)." Now there may be some other causes of death increasing due to people not getting medical care as well. But in total, the number of deaths is approaching it's "normal range." 

 

Happy to hear from anyone more knowledgeable about this chart.

The problem with this train of thought is the country, its people, can't survive this way indefinitely. By way of example while car accidents might be down people need to drive. While flu deaths might be down people need to work, make a living, put food on the table.

 

So no, I'm not buying into because the overall death rate in our country is where it should be the American people are where we should be because we are not.

[Bad Things]

6 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

why? Do you think NY should be in total lockdown mode now?

what in the world are you trying to say here?

If that's what it takes to stop the spread of the virus, then yes. 

What restrictions are currently in place for NY?  (I honestly have no idea.)

 

I am fully aware that it’s a completely different situation down here in NZ with only 5 million people and easier controlled borders, but… as our Prime Minister said, when the first case of the virus appeared on our shores back in March, we went in hard and early.

Our borders were immediately closed to everyone apart from Kiwi citizens and the entire nation went into a FULL lockdown until the virus was stamped out.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53274085

 

All returning Kiwis must also go into a managed 2-week quarantine upon arrival.

For 70+ days now, we haven’t had a case of community transmission, but have caught numerous incoming cases at the border/quarantine.

 

The problem is that the US should have had a nationwide, united-front in battling this, instead of the scattershot approach that actually happened. (Not to even mention the undermining comments that Trump projects to the nation.)

 

I know you don't like hearing my thoughts on this, but you asked.

[shoshin]

22 minutes ago, Figster said:

The problem with this train of thought is the country, its people, can't survive this way indefinitely. By way of example while car accidents might be down people need to drive. While flu deaths might be down people need to work, make a living, put food on the table.

 

So no, I'm not buying into because the overall death rate in our country is where it should be the American people are where we should be because we are not.

 

Agree 100%. I was just interpreting the chart. 

[Figster]

 

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

Do you think NY and Va say should have the same lockdowns and rules etc now governing in CA? 

 

Good question, 

 

I think without a unified approach across the nation Covid 19 will continue to spread unchecked IMO.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean different precautions couldn't be used depending on the severity of the outbreak.

 

By way of example everyone should be wearing masks and practicing social distancing right now regardless of where you reside. ( IMO)

 

Myself personally, I think all bars and restraunts should be closed in the US with the exception of take out IMO. All large gatherings prohibited. Close all beaches. All places of worship should be closed in the US in my humble opinion..

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Figster

[plenzmd1]

24 minutes ago, Bad Things said:

 

What restrictions are currently in place for NY?  (I honestly have no idea.)

 

 

And therein lies the issue. No offense against you, but this is pretty standard across the board”   And it takes more work than reading headlines. 

[Bad Things]

10 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

And therein lies the issue. No offense against you, but this is pretty standard across the board”   And it takes more work than reading headlines. 

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that.

 

All I know is that when watching the news coming out of the US, it seems like no one knows what's going on.

In some areas people have to wear masks, in other areas don't.  Some are even protesting against having to wear a mask.

In some areas bars and restaurants can be open, but in other areas they are still in lockdown. 

In some areas schools will be open for students, in other areas, not so much.

It all seems like a big cluster-F.

 

I don't have the time or desire to look up what's specifically happening back in upstate NY.  Just thought someone could share their experience.

[LB3]

43 minutes ago, Figster said:

 

 

Good question, 

 

I think without a unified approach across the nation Covid 19 will continue to spread unchecked IMO.

 

It doesn't necessarily mean different precautions couldn't be used depending on the severity of the outbreak.

 

By way of example everyone should be wearing masks and practicing social distancing right now regardless of where you reside. ( IMO)

 

I also think all bars and restraunts should be closed across the US with the exception of take out. All large gatherings prohibited.

In my county in NYS, we've had less than 250 cases and zero deaths. The first week of phase three, no one in bars were adhering to social distancing or mask rules. It was back to normal. A week later, Karen's had reported all the bars and they are now following the rules. There have been no uptick in positives even though evil business owners were trying to make a living.

 

Why should these businesses be forced to lose their livelihoods?

[Augie]

The virus doesn’t recognize state lines. If South Dakota is fine while Manhattan was ablaze, let SD do their thing. No need to shut down their income streams and crash that part of the national economy. 

 

Precautions and restrictions should be based upon the level of cases, not borders. Common sense is not as common as we’d all hope. . 

[Figster]

25 minutes ago, Augie said:

The virus doesn’t recognize state lines. If South Dakota is fine while Manhattan was ablaze, let SD do their thing. No need to shut down their income streams and crash that part of the national economy. 

 

Precautions and restrictions should be based upon the level of cases, not borders. Common sense is not as common as we’d all hope. . 

You said it yourself, "the virus doesn't recognize state lines" or care If it goes back to pay another visit to some of the places its already been. (@ LB3) South Dakota could be fine today and the home of another hot spot 3 weeks from now.

 

Common sense is telling me to take the necessary steps/ precautions now and not wait until people are dropping around me like flies before I decide to do something about it.

 

Its to late...

Edited July 15, 2020 by Figster

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Figster said:

You said it yourself, the virus doesn't recognize state lines or cares If it goes back to pay another visit to some of the places its already been. South Dakota could be fine today and the home of another hot spot 3 weeks from now.

 

Common sense is telling me to take the necessary precautions now and not wait until people are dropping around me like flies before I decide to do something about it.

 

Its to late...

 

Everyone everywhere needs to take reasonable precautions. I never go into a retail store without a mask. I don’t go to crowded places. I wouldn’t consider stopping by a local bar. BUT, I think there are ways to keep many of these businesses open while we figure this out. I eat at restaurants outside with considerable distance. I grocery shop for my 92 year old mother. 

 

I hear both extremes, and, as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

[Figster]

1 hour ago, LB3 said:

In my county in NYS, we've had less than 250 cases and zero deaths. The first week of phase three, no one in bars were adhering to social distancing or mask rules. It was back to normal. A week later, Karen's had reported all the bars and they are now following the rules. There have been no uptick in positives even though evil business owners were trying to make a living.

 

Why should these businesses be forced to lose their livelihoods?

From a bar perpective I just don't see a way to social distance properly and stay safe. So while I understand the need to preserve ones livelihood the value of life itself out weighs the business IMO LB3. The owners life, the bartenders life, the loyal patrons life. 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Everyone everywhere needs to take reasonable precautions. I never go into a retail store without a mask. I don’t go to crowded places. I wouldn’t consider stopping by a local bar. BUT, I think there are ways to keep many of these businesses open while we figure this out. I eat at restaurants outside with considerable distance. I grocery shop for my 92 year old mother. 

 

I hear both extremes, and, as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

If everyone could just meet somewhere in the middle the world would be a safer place my friend.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Figster

[Augie]

50 minutes ago, Figster said:

From a bar perpective I just don't see a way to social distance properly and stay safe. So while I understand the need to preserve ones livelihood the value of life itself out weighs the business IMO LB3. The owners life, the bartenders life, the loyal patrons life. 

 

 

If everyone could just meet somewhere in the middle the world would be a safer place my friend.

 

A place I used to go for lunch every week or two has an active bar scene. I have my Arnold Palmer, having a late lunch (2:30- 3:30pm, post lunch rush, pre-Happy Hour) at the bar reading my book having lunch. Like everyone, they closed when it hit the fan. They partially re-opened when possible, but I avoided the main area indoors around the bar. Too close, too tight, not enough air circulation. I still went and had lunch at one of the two covered patios on occasion. NOW, the sign on the door says two of the staff tested positive, and they are closed until the rest get test results. 

 

You can often spot a bad idea and avoid trouble. Did I have SOME risk by continuing to eat out? Sure, but I minimized the risk. Life is often about finding a balance. Nobody can stay 100% safe thru all this, so try to be smart and good luck. 

[plenzmd1]

2 hours ago, Bad Things said:

Sorry, not sure what you mean by that.

 

All I know is that when watching the news coming out of the US, it seems like no one knows what's going on.

In some areas people have to wear masks, in other areas don't.  Some are even protesting against having to wear a mask.

In some areas bars and restaurants can be open, but in other areas they are still in lockdown. 

In some areas schools will be open for students, in other areas, not so much.

It all seems like a big cluster-F.

 

I don't have the time or desire to look up what's specifically happening back in upstate NY.  Just thought someone could share their experience.

And that’s my point. 
 

“ I don’t have the time or desire to look up what’s specifically happening” but I like to tell everyone whatever is happening is wrong and I am glad I got the hell out of the states as it sucks there. 
 

but again, all I did was read a headline. 
 

if you can’t see the problem in that thought process I don’t know what to tell you

Edited July 16, 2020 by plenzmd1

[Bad Things]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

And that’s my point. 
 

“ I don’t have the time or desire to look up what’s specifically happening” but I like to tell everyone whatever is happening is wrong and I am glad I got the hell out of the states as it sucks there. 
 

but again, all I did was read a headline. 
 

if you can’t see the problem in that thought process I don’t know what to tell 

Good Lord.

 

For you to imply that I only read the headlines shows how ignorant you are.

I think you simply get hurt feelings when someone doesn't agree with you.

 

That said... if you think things are going well up there... good on you!

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bad Things

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Augie said:

The virus doesn’t recognize state lines. If South Dakota is fine while Manhattan was ablaze, let SD do their thing. No need to shut down their income streams and crash that part of the national economy. 

 

Precautions and restrictions should be based upon the level of cases, not borders. Common sense is not as common as we’d all hope. . 

 

I'm not disagreeing that the degree of shutdown necessary should correlate with the severity and likelihood of an outbreak.

But two points:

1) One learning about covid-19 is because of the high number of asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic cases...by the time you see that you have a problem, you're probably blowing up (or on the verge of blowing up).  SW MO would be an example of that.

2) In many areas which were "fine", people moved through and brought virus with them...for example wealthy people renting property in Jackson Hole or in Montana.

 

I could be wrong, but I really think the global economy (and the economy of different states) is so intertwined these days that it's very hard to say "close that meat packing plant in SD that's having an outbreak but leave the ones in Iowa and MO open...the one plant feeds the others....so they all need to be open or they all need to close.

[plenzmd1]

1 hour ago, Bad Things said:

Good Lord.

 

For you to imply that I only read the headlines shows how ignorant you are.

I think you simply get hurt feelings when someone doesn't agree with you.

 

That said... if you think things are going well up there... good on you!

 

 

You are the very one who said “ I don’t have the time or desire to look up specifically what’s happening”. It is common. But you weigh in like you do. That’s called reading a headline.
 

Do you know hospitalization rates , ICU availability ,bed availability, testing anomalies , dwell  time , IFR by state? By age? Age of new positive tests?

 

but yes, but al means I should take your opinion seriously cause ????

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, LB3 said:

In my county in NYS, we've had less than 250 cases and zero deaths. The first week of phase three, no one in bars were adhering to social distancing or mask rules. It was back to normal. A week later, Karen's had reported all the bars and they are now following the rules. There have been no uptick in positives even though evil business owners were trying to make a living.

 

Why should these businesses be forced to lose their livelihoods?

 

I also could be wrong, but I think you're misusing the term "Karen" here.  "Karen" is the one who puts herself above all else and demands to speak to the manager when the fast food hourly wage slave politely asks her to put on a mask, or calls the police when the bird watcher in Central Park asks her to follow the posted rules and leash her dog.   "Karen" is the one who would flip out when asked to follow social distancing rules, not the one who would try to keep an epidemic in check by following them.

 

I hate to say this because one of my fave small businesses in my home town is super struggling and I would love them to be able to survive, but maybe if a business model is in direct conflict with public health regulations, the business needs to figure out another way to survive?  It's totes legit to ask for civic help - for example my hometown bought and erected a number of outdoor tents and placed tables in them in the restaurant district, for the use of restaurant and bar patrons and to help those restaurants survive.  It hired musicians to play one night a week in various tents, to help draw people. 

 

But I don't think it's legit to flout a public health regulation in the name of making money.  Typhoid Mary was only trying to make a living, you know?  Why should she have been forced to lose her livelihood?

 

2 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Do you know hospitalization rates , ICU availability ,bed availability, testing anomalies , dwell  time , IFR by state? By age? Age of new positive tests?

 

Well considering no one knows the true infection fatality rate for covid-19, it would be a real challenge to know them by state now wouldn't it?

 

As for hospitalization rates, ICU availability, bed availability overall much less by age....if you have a good source for these data please provide it.

 

Many states do not.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not disagreeing that the degree of shutdown necessary should correlate with the severity and likelihood of an outbreak.

But two points:

1) One learning about covid-19 is because of the high number of asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic cases...by the time you see that you have a problem, you're probably blowing up (or on the verge of blowing up).  SW MO would be an example of that.

2) In many areas which were "fine", people moved through and brought virus with them...for example wealthy people renting property in Jackson Hole or in Montana.

 

I could be wrong, but I really think the global economy (and the economy of different states) is so intertwined these days that it's very hard to say "close that meat packing plant in SD that's having an outbreak but leave the ones in Iowa and MO open...the one plant feeds the others....so they all need to be open or they all need to close.

I vote for open then, since people need to eat. Until I see a dramatic shift in the demographics of the people having the worst outcomes, I’m of the opinion that the vulnerable should protect themselves and the rest of us should do our part to help them. “Locking down“ em masse again is going to cause more collateral damage than the virus itself. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, billsfanmiami(oh) said:

I vote for open then, since people need to eat. Until I see a dramatic shift in the demographics of the people having the worst outcomes, I’m of the opinion that the vulnerable should protect themselves and the rest of us should do our part to help them. “Locking down“ em masse again is going to cause more collateral damage than the virus itself. 

 

Maybe people should eat something else for a while, so the plant can be disinfected, the workers all tested and contacts traced, and the outbreak contained?

I hear there's a company that sells cans 'o beans and stuff ?

 

A lot of these plants are in rural areas where the hospital capacity is NOT good.  The workers and their families shop at Walmart, go to church, all that stuff.
How exactly do "the vulnerable protect themselves" when they need to buy groceries and Walmart is what they got, and the asymptomatically infected meat plant employees are all shopping there? 

 

 

[LB3]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I also could be wrong, but I think you're misusing the term "Karen" here.

 

But I don't think it's legit to flout a public health regulation in the name of making money.  Typhoid Mary was only trying to make a living, you know?  Why should she have been forced to lose her livelihood?

I have seen Karen used to describe any uppity person who makes solutions to others' problems an issue to them even though she isn't affected. Driving through the parking lot, scoping out the place in her Audi SUV and then calling local police if she thinks she sees too many people.

 

To your second point, you say making money, I say struggling to support multiple families. As far as I'm concerned, any argument that bars and restaurants shouldn't be allowed to operate as normal were made invalid when the protests/riots happened and were deemed ok. Thousands of people masked and unmasked screaming in each other's faces and destroying their own communities. The hypocrisy has not gone unnoticed.

 

On that note, you have yourself a fine day. I'll be leaving work early for Thursday night golf league. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, LB3 said:

I have seen Karen used to describe any uppity person who makes solutions to others' problems an issue to them even though she isn't affected. Driving through the parking lot, scoping out the place in her Audi SUV and then calling local police if she thinks she sees too many people.

 

To your second point, you say making money, I say struggling to support multiple families. As far as I'm concerned, any argument that bars and restaurants shouldn't be allowed to operate as normal were made invalid when the protests/riots happened and were deemed ok. Thousands of people masked and unmasked screaming in each other's faces and destroying their own communities. The hypocrisy has not gone unnoticed.

 

On that note, you have yourself a fine day. I'll be leaving work early for Thursday night golf league. 

So two wrongs make a right to you?

 

I don’t know anyone who has deemed destruction of property OK.  

 

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe people should eat something else for a while, so the plant can be disinfected, the workers all tested and contacts traced, and the outbreak contained?

I hear there's a company that sells cans 'o beans and stuff ?

 

A lot of these plants are in rural areas where the hospital capacity is NOT good.  The workers and their families shop at Walmart, go to church, all that stuff.
How exactly do "the vulnerable protect themselves" when they need to buy groceries and Walmart is what they got, and the asymptomatically infected meat plant employees are all shopping there? 

 

 

The vulnerable protect themselves by not putting themselves in high risk situations. A grocery store where everyone is wearing masks, practicing social distancing and disinfecting the shared surfaces doesn’t scream high risk to me.
 

But yup, let’s go ahead and shut everything down and live in a fake bubble for an undetermined amount of time again. Forget the people who lost jobs, they don’t matter. 

[LB3]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So two wrongs make a right to you?

 

225 cases. 0 deaths in my county.

 

One of them isn't wrong, IMO.

 

Edit: 226 cases.

Edited July 16, 2020 by LB3

[BillsFan4]

Bars (and some restaurants, though not nearly as many as bars) have been proven over and over again to be large spreaders of covid.
 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-makes-bars-and-restaurants-potential-covid-19-hot-spots-11593768600

“What Makes Bars and Restaurants Potential Covid-19 Hot Spots?

Enclosed spaces with clusters of people sharing food, talking loudly and drinking alcohol raise transmission risks“ (common sense...)

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/07/11/184-coronavirus-covid-19-cases-now-linked-to-outbreak-at-east-lansing-bar/

“185 coronavirus (COVID-19) cases now linked to outbreak at East Lansing bar”

 

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/06/27/state-health-officials-say-4-minnesota-bars-linked-to-recent-outbreaks-of-covid-19/

“State Health Officials Say 4 Minnesota Bars Linked To Recent Outbreaks Of COVID-19”

 

https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/29/with-hundreds-tied-to-coronavirus-outbreaks-from-bars-walz-threatens-harsher-actions/
“With hundreds of COVID-19 cases tied to bars, Walz threatens stricter actions“

 

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/covid-19-outbreak-linked-to-another-bar-this-one-in-st-cloud

“COVID-19 outbreak linked to another bar, this one in St. Cloud“

 

https://www.mankatofreepress.com/news/local_news/rounders-507-bars-in-mankato-linked-to-covid-19-outbreaks/article_1de9ce8a-b7e7-11ea-80aa-17d1f1f000c2.html
“Rounders, 507 bars in Mankato linked to COVID-19 outbreaks”

 

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-san-diego-live-updates-covid-19/
“More than 75% of the community outbreaks have been traced to restaurants and bars

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/coronavirus/article_5ccd9f98-c131-11ea-896e-2b83804f0cc6.html

“Where are the biggest coronavirus outbreaks in Louisiana? Food processing plants, bars top the list”

 

 

 

I don’t think anyone ever said that rioting was ok.

 

As far as the protests, obviously they raise the risk of spreading COVID19.

It’s not like health officials were saying “it’s not safe to dine out but it’s perfectly safe to protest!”. Dr. Fauci said that He was worried the protests could spread covid. 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/dr-fauci-voices-concerns-coronavirus-spreading-amid-nationwide/story?id=71171103

“Dr. Fauci voices concerns about coronavirus spreading amid nationwide protests”

 

 

At least they were outdoors and most people were in masks (in every photo + video I saw, anyway). But of course they raise the risk of spreading covid. Large groups packed close together during a pandemic is a risk, even with masks (though the masks help limit the risk). 

[LB3]

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-01/experts-see-little-evidence-that-protests-spread-coronavirus

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/24/883017035/what-contact-tracing-may-tell-about-cluster-spread-of-the-coronavirus

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/protests-in-seattle-and-elsewhere-dont-appear-to-be-driving-virus-surge-researchers-say/

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/black-lives-matter-protests-didnt-contribute-to-covid19-surge

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/black-lives-matter-protests-haven-t-led-covid-19-spikes-n1232045

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

It’s not like health officials were saying “it’s not safe to dine out but it’s perfectly safe to protest!”.

 

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, LB3 said:

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-01/experts-see-little-evidence-that-protests-spread-coronavirus

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/24/883017035/what-contact-tracing-may-tell-about-cluster-spread-of-the-coronavirus

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/protests-in-seattle-and-elsewhere-dont-appear-to-be-driving-virus-surge-researchers-say/

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/black-lives-matter-protests-didnt-contribute-to-covid19-surge

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/black-lives-matter-protests-haven-t-led-covid-19-spikes-n1232045

 

maybe I’m just missing it, but I’ve read 3 of 5 links so far and I don’t see where any of them are really say that experts said it was safe to protest. I see lots of stuff about how the protests didn’t spread covid, but nothing about experts saying it’s safe.

 

- The LA times article says this:

Quote

There is little evidence that the protests that erupted after George Floyd’s death caused a significant increase in U.S. coronavirus infections, according to public health experts.

 

If the protests had driven an explosion in cases, experts say, the jumps would have started to become apparent within two weeks — and perhaps as early as five days. But that didn’t happen in many cities with the largest protests, including New York, Chicago, Minneapolis, and Washington, D.C.

 

In what’s considered the first systematic look at the question, a team of economists determined that only one of 13 cities involved in the earliest wave of protests after Memorial Day had an increase that would fit the pattern.

 

Quote

In many cities, the protests actually seemed to lead to a net increase in social distancing, as more people who did not protest decided to stay off the streets, said that study’s lead author, Dhaval Dave of Bentley University.

 

“The large-scale protests can impact both the behavior of the protesters and the behavior of the nonprotesters,” said Dave. The working paper was released last week by the National Bureau of Economic Research, but has not been published by a peer-reviewed journal.

 

Drawing from data compiled by Johns Hopkins University, the Associated Press reviewed trends in daily reported cases in 22 U.S. cities with protests. It found post-protest increases in several cities — including Houston and Madison, Wisc. — where experts say other factors were more likely the main drivers.

He goes on to say (in the paper) that more people staying home may have offset the increase in cases that may have been caused by the protests.

 

Quote

Houston is among a number of Texas cities that have recently seen steep increases in cases and hospitalizations. Dr. Umair Shah, executive director of the Harris County health department, believes it was likely some cases could be traced to the protests.

 

“We just don’t know how much,” he said.

But it’s hard to measure the protests’ precise impact for a number of reasons, Shah and others said.

- The NPR article reinforces my point - indoor activities (like parties and bars) are spreading covid.

 

“Parties — Not Protests — Are Causing Spikes In Coronavirus“

Quote

As the U.S. begins to open back up, coronavirus clusters — where multiple people contract COVID-19 at the same event or location — are popping up all over the country. And despite drawing massive crowds, protests against police violence and racial injustice in Washington state weren't among those clusters....

 

....But protests just aren't spreading the disease in the same way, Lautenbach says. 
 

“We're finding that the social events and gatherings, these parties where people aren't wearing masks, are our primary source of infection," Lautenbach says. "And then the secondary source of infection is workplace settings. There were 31 related employers just associated with that one party because of the number of people that brought that to their workplace. So for us, for a community our size, that's a pretty massive spread."

 

- The Seattle times article comes the closest I guess, but still doesn’t really say it’s safe to protest. They’re examining the data and saying that outdoor activities seem to be safer.

 

Quote

But some researchers say that the protests do not appear to be significantly driving this surge. This helps bolster the case that the coronavirus generally does not transmit as easily outdoors, where even a gentle breeze can help diffuse the virus, compared to confined indoor spaces.

 

“I would say that outside makes a big difference because of much more air circulation,” said Dr. Jared Baeten, a vice dean at the University of Washington’s School of Public Health, who donned a mask and joined in the June 12 March of Silence through Seattle that drew an estimated 60,000 people.

Quote

In King County, the epicenter of Washington’s protests, health investigators have tracked — during a 19-day span in June — less than 5% of 1,008 total positive cases to people who attended protests. In other cities, including Minneapolis and Portland, researchers have yet to find that protests, where many were masked, have caused major spikes in cases.

 

“The data may be imperfect but … neither here in King County, or elsewhere in the county, where health care authorities are looking, have we been able to document that or find strong evidence of that,” said Dr. Jeffrey Duchin, health officer of Public Health — Seattle & King County in remarks to reporters on Friday.

Others have reached a similar conclusion.

 

A working paper — yet to be peer reviewed — from the National Bureau of Economic Research analyzed data from protests in 315 large cities and found “no evidence that urban protests reignited COVID-19 case growth during the more than three weeks following the protest.” The study also cited evidence that protests prompted more stay-at-home behavior by those who didn’t go to the protests.

Seems like they’re just drawing conclusions from the data vs. saying it’s safe to protest.

 

The article also goes on to say this:

 

Quote

Still, some public health officials offer a more skeptical view.

 

In Los Angeles, where COVID-19 cases are escalating, Barbara Ferrer, the Los Angeles County Public Health Director, said it was “highly likely” that the surge is connected, in part, due to the protests, although there was no tracking of such cases, according to the Los Angeles Times. Also in Los Angeles, police officials report that the rate at which officers are contracting the virus has been on the rise, and are trying to determine whether the protests might be a source of infection.

Quote

Still, Malmgren said the data now available shows no clear link to the protests, and that the other activities, such as the phased reopening of bars, could have contributed to the rising case counts.

edit - reading the healthline article now. That one is saying that due to protests being outdoors with wind circulating and the UV from the sun and people wearing masks (etc) it made it safer than indoor activity like bars, etc. 

So the article seems to be saying the opposite of what you’re saying (that if it’s ok to protest, it’s ok for bars and restaurants to be open). 
 

Quote

It’s an issue brought up by many people who support the reopening of businesses and the return of large gatherings in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic.

 

If there wasn’t an outcry about the spread of the novel coronavirus during the Black Lives Matter protests in late May and early June, why was there one when people returned to restaurants, nail salons, bars, and beaches?

 

Weren’t the protests a potential “super spreader” of COVID-19?

 

It’s a concern public health officials initially raised.

 

“I do think there’s potential for this to be, unfortunately, a seeding event,” Dr. Robert R. RedfieldTrusted Source, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), toldCongress June 4.

So have the Black Lives Matter protests led to a noticeable increase in COVID-19 cases?

 

Quote

And if not, what has made them different from events such as a concert or a large wedding? So have the Black Lives Matter protests led to a noticeable increase in COVID-19 cases?
 

Experts say the short answer to the first question is no.

 

They say the answer to the second question reveals useful tips on what activities may be lower risk and how to participate in them safely as the country continues to balance a desire to return to normal with staying healthy.

 

Quote

The COVID-19 spike in Texas is likely tied to the reopening, not the protests, Rohde said.

 

“One can look at the time frame post-protests regarding case counts, hospitalizations, and mortality to see if there may be a correlation. I have not seen that in my observations,” Rohde told Healthline.

 

“However, if one looks to the research literature regarding ‘opening up too soon’ and gatherings in restaurants, bars, or similar locations… then we do see some published research around surges in cases and hospitalization, including some super spreader events,” he added.

?‍♂️

edit again: 

 

and here’s the last article:

 

“Black Lives Matter protests haven't led to COVID-19 spikes. It may be due to people staying home.”

Quote

There is no evidence yet that the wave of Black Lives Matter protests across the U.S. sparked COVID-19 outbreaks in the more than three weeks since they began, according to a study published Monday by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

 

Rather, as the protests went on, people who were not participating increasingly stayed at home, possibly counteracting any effects the large gatherings may have had on the spread of the virus, the researchers concluded.

 

Quote

In the paper, the authors suggested that this increase in staying at home may have offset the decrease in social distancing observed by those participating in protests.

However, the authors said that while there was little effect on the spread of COVID-19 for counties as a whole, it’s possible that the protests caused an increase in the spread of COVID-19 among those who actually attended the protests.

and this:

 

Quote

In New York City, health officials have not seen a recent spike in emergency room visits or hospitalizations, according to a statement from Dr. Oxiris Barbot, the city’s health commissioner.
 

Still, she added: "Staying inside is the safest way to prevent the spread of COVID-19. If you do go out, our message is to wear face coverings; be diligent about washing hands; and certainly, when at all possible, maintain 6 feet of distance from your fellow New Yorkers.”

 

(btw, sorry for the edits. I accidentally posted this before I had finished typing my response).

Edited July 16, 2020 by BillsFan4