Josh Allen’s drop vs Mahomes

[RyanC883]

4 hours ago, 298Woody said:

We need another RT free agent, rookies take too long and the OL is critical to success.

 

 

totally agree.  Conklin!!!

[iccrewman112]

4 hours ago, 298Woody said:

We need another RT free agent, rookies take too long and the OL is critical to success.

 

Jack Conklin from Tennessee. They will spend most of their money to retain Henry and Tannehill.

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sorry, but when your team has just won the Superbowl against one of the best DLs in football and you come on another team's board to whinge about how "total garbage" the center of your team's OL is, that's just pathetic.

 

The 49ers gave up the fewest passing yards in the league this year for a reason, and it wasn't because their secondary is truly elite or they blitz a lot - only 20.9%, yet they're 5th in the league in sacks and 2nd in pressures.  Hmmmmm.

 

The Chiefs gave Mahomes the 3rd longest pocket time (time between snap and pocket collapse) in the league.  That's a "legs" independent metric.  It says the center of their line is actually quite good.  You don't do that with "total garbage"

 

Mahomes was struggling to complete accurate throws early in the SB game because the 49ers DL is legit elite, not because the center of KC OL is "total garbage".  He did better in the 2nd half because they made adjustments, including some of those deeper drops implemented because they realized that Hill would completely undress the SF DBs given a bit more time.  And he did.

 

Kudos to him, kudos to the coaches, kudos to the team.  Now take that "total garbage" thing to a Chiefs board where it's prolly equally unwelcome right now.

Respectfully disagree with the bolded. It means they DO suck and a deeper drop with an accurate canon arm can beat it.

3 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Mahomes played a lot of hero ball in that Super Bowl, Tareek Hill bailed him out on that 44 yard pass that turned the game around. Toss in that Jimmy G fell a part at the worst possible time. 

This IS Josh Allen and we should take a page from their playbook. It’s the fastest way to move Allen UP from Average QB status.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Respectfully disagree with the bolded. It means they DO suck and a deeper drop with an accurate canon arm can beat it.

 

I appreciate the respect, but the conclusion doesn't seem to follow for me.

 

The measure of pocket time, is how long there's a pocket from which the QB to stand in and throw from, not the QB's time to throw.  How can the fact that Mahomes' OL gave him the 3rd longest pocket time in the league be proof that the OL sucks?

 

 

[Aussie Joe]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Spain is a FA and while he has said he'd like to be back and would like to get 'er done before FA, he also wants a payday and I'm not sure his run blocking is elite.

We definitely seemed to have a problem with run blocking and I'm not sure where it stood.

So what will be your solution to replacing Spain?

 

 

[Chandler#81]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I appreciate the respect, but the conclusion doesn't seem to follow for me.

 

The measure of pocket time, is how long there's a pocket from which the QB to stand in and throw from, not the QB's time to throw.  How can the fact that Mahomes' OL gave him the 3rd longest pocket time in the league be proof that the OL sucks?

 

 

It’s a tough challenge, but it has a lot to do with their enviable speed at skill positions. These are guys are open when they’re not and a couple extra seconds backpedaling allows Mahomes to see them separate and launch howitzers. It’s unconventional, to be sure, but it is what they’re doing. Josh has the same makeup as Mahomes but nowhere near the talent around him. I think it’s the clearest reason the Chiefs won all 3 playoff games AFTER surrendering double digit leads. That’s never been done and nothing short of phenomenal.

 

[Zerovoltz]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I appreciate the respect, but the conclusion doesn't seem to follow for me.

 

The measure of pocket time, is how long there's a pocket from which the QB to stand in and throw from, not the QB's time to throw.  How can the fact that Mahomes' OL gave him the 3rd longest pocket time in the league be proof that the OL sucks?

 

 

 

Not the whole line.....the tackles are good....so is it possible the metric might be something like this?

 

10 passing play snaps.

 

3 of those, the G-C-G has a fail or more than one fail.  The pocket collapses quickly. 

2 of those the G-C-G has a fail, but Mahomes steps up or into a safer spot in the pocket....maybe counts because he escaped and the pocket integrity was reestablished because of where he moved to.

4 of those, the G-C-G holds up, and so the tackles....as the Chiefs throw deep more than most teams..Mahomes hangs in the pocket for a good while....somewhat inflating the stat and diminishing the bad pocket time by pushing the high end time up on successful pockets.

1 snap where the OT fails and pressure comes from the edge.

 

I'm not saying this is how they came up with that rating.....but if you'd be open to some film review, it's not a case where you have to nit pick at it to see the problem on the interior line...it's obvious to even the most untrained eye.

 

Lastly.....even at that....they overcame the defficiency one way or another...so not complaining....just pointing out...this area was a weak spot on a good team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

So what will be your solution to replacing Spain?

Too many pathways and some info I don’t have.  Has Ford played LG?  How does Mongo compare at LG vs RG?  Do they like Waddle & want to keep him?

 

One path would be to slide Mongo to LG (if he’s good there, I know he’s played it), move Ford inside to RG, and go after a RT in FA (Conklin).

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

I don't think it's just Mahomes.

 

Watching Lamar Jackson when he passes he seems to really drop back a lot.  I don't know if this is for the sake of helping with field vision or what, but Allen certainly has the arm strength where dropping back farther wouldn't really hinder him.

[billsherd]

8 hours ago, mjt328 said:

I've thought the same thing when watching Patrick Mahomes, and wondered if it could work for our offense.

His distance from the line of scrimmage often gives him 10-15 yards of space before the pass rush can get close to him, and gives the receivers more time to get deep.

 

Josh Allen is one of the few players (besides Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, etc.) with enough arm strength to make this work.  

 

To the person that said our O-Line can't hold on a 7-step drop.... watch how Kansas City executes these plays.  Mahomes doesn't do this from under center.  He takes very deep shotgun snaps, then continues moving backwards or laterally as the play happens, instead of stepping up into the pocket.  The O-Line isn't forced to hold blocks longer than on normal pass plays.  

^^^^Bills need to look at how KC uses Mahomes. It gives you the impression that KC's oline is very good.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would like PFF to do a run down on top 10 QB’s and how much more the O-Line gets away with holding.

[transplantbillsfan]

There's a Kubiak article actually discussing this very topic in the Buffalo News... anyone with a subscription like @Hapless Bills Fan who might be willing to post some highlights for those of us without???

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/3/2020 at 10:36 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

Dawkins and Ford can't hold their blocks up in a 7 step drop.   As MJS said, the play defines the drop.  The NFL has evolved to reads that are  mainly pre-snap, and often limited to a single portion of the field.   So many throws that are predetermined based on play design.  Add shotgun and pistol formations and the length of the drop is less and less important that making the correct read pre-snap

Best thing Daboll can do is more play action, fix the screen game, allow Knox to develop and get better at RT (either Ford plays better which I think is what will happen or upgrade and move Ford to LG)

I want to see much more play action. Josh's QB rating is like 110 in play action.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

There's a Kubiak article actually discussing this very topic in the Buffalo News... anyone with a subscription like @Hapless Bills Fan who might be willing to post some highlights for those of us without???

 

Absolutely!  I was intending to put up a thread for it tomorrow, but I'll start in here

https://buffalonews.com/2020/02/05/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-quarterback-dropbacks/

 

First of all, let me say it's a bit of a departure for Jim and for Bills Blitz - it's a much more in depth technical look at pass protection and QB drops.  It may be a "trial balloon" to see how well this stuff plays for them.  It is, in my opinion, WELL worth a read if you're interested in the meat-and-potatoes of football but you're not a professional coach or scout.

I would recommend starting a Bills Blitz trial (you have to register, but you can cancel) just to get at the full text. 

 

I can not possibly do it justice.

 

Fundamentally, Kubiak's conclusion (and he spends a lot of time backing this up with quotes from an OL coach) is that the depth of the drop the QB takes is relatively insignificant, relative to the amount of time the QB holds the ball, the rush scheme, and the protection scheme (with time holding the ball being the principle factor)  If a deeper drop impacts pass protection, it would largely be via increasing the time taken by the drop (thus lengthening the time the QB holds the ball). 

 

I have some questions/caveats about this, but whatever you think, there's a lot of good stuff in that article - especially if you like your x's and o's and technical discussion.