Should season ticket holders protest?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

cool No desire to Advance. Thanks. 

AND no desire to advance

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, Braedenstearns said:

My questions is would have it worked the other way?

 

say he does his fist bump thing (or whatever he did to say “fair catch”) and tricked everyone and then took of running for a TD. Would it be called a TD because he never took a knee? Or would it have been called back because of him making no attempt to run...? I honestly think it wouldn’t have been called back if he took off running after pausing a moment

He would be assessed an unsportsmanlike penalty. You can’t fake a fair catch. 

[MAJBobby]

No desire to advance. Did he have a desire to advance?  
 

wait you don’t want common sense rules? 
 

 

[Billl]

The reality is that this same play has happened scores of times this year, and this is the first time the ref didn’t use common sense and call it a touchback immediately.  Not a single mention of it would ever have been made by anyone had the ref not been an idiot in the first place.  The time to start changing the way a rule is being enforced is not during the playoffs.  That would be like saying the refs in the NBA should decide to call a carry on an unguarded point guard in the backcourt halfway through game 3 of the Finals because he rolled his hand over it a little...like every player in the game does every single time.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Billl

[Real McClappy]

45 minutes ago, K-9 said:

And yet it’s been accepted in practice, if not specifically defined in the rule book,  by refs league wide. Indeed, I’ve seen numerous instances where the ref blew the whistle the moment the ball landed after the returner gave the safe signal in the endzone. 

I was taught to play to the whistle in F'ing Pee-wee football.

 

Was a whistle blown by the Head official?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Real McNasty

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

He would be assessed an unsportsmanlike penalty. You can’t fake a fair catch. 

He didn't signal fair catch. This is the point. Fair catch is a legally defined motion, arm waving above head. He would have absolutely been within his right to take a few steps and then start running, as evidenced by Greg Olsen who saw Devin Hester do the exact thing:

 

 

[Meatloaf63]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

I know it sucks being but hurt. Tell me again please cause it still won’t change a thing. RIGHT COMMON SENSE CALL

Refs don’t have the choice of making common sense calls, it’s black and white and you are so dug in you won’t admit that you are wrong, you’re like a 2 year old . The point isn’t people are hurt, the point isn’t interpreting what he meant to do, the point is the overriding by the off field officials was wrong and their is no arguing that. Common sense says if there is a written rule you follow it or this exact argument ensues. Be a man and admit you are wrong.....

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

He didn't signal fair catch. This is the point. Fair catch is a legally defined motion, arm waving above head. He would have absolutely been within his right to take a few steps and then start running, as evidenced by Greg Olsen who saw Devin Hester do the exact thing:

 

 

I don’t care what Devin Hester did BEFORE the KO rules are changed 

[apuszczalowski]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

cool No desire to Advance. Thanks. 

Well reading that rule, there is an AND in there after falling to the ground OR taking a knee and making no effort to advance.

 

In my line of work, dealing with a document that is written in legal jargon, the word AND would mean that it it needs to be used in conjunction with whatever comes before it. So in this case, they would need to kneel or fall down while also making no effort to advance.

[Billl]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

AND no desire to advance

So a runner who steps out of bounds isn’t down as long as he still has a desire to advance?  ***** is about to get interesting on the sidelines.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Meatloaf63 said:

Refs don’t have the choice of making common sense calls, it’s black and white and you are so dug in you won’t admit that you are wrong, you’re like a 2 year old . The point isn’t people are hurt, the point isn’t interpreting what he meant to do, the point is the overriding by the off field officials was wrong and their is no arguing that. Common sense says if there is a written rule you follow it or this exact argument ensues. Be a man and admit you are wrong.....

really it is black and white. How many times has PI been called right?  Is there HOLDING called on Every play?  According to black and white rules their should be. 
 

guess what right call. And now I am done 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

I don’t care what Devin Hester did BEFORE the KO rules are changed 

Here are the new kickoff rules. They're not relevant to this discussion.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/kickoff-rules/

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, apuszczalowski said:

Well reading that rule, there is an AND in there after falling to the ground OR taking a knee and making no effort to advance.

 

In my line of work, dealing with a document that is written in legal jargon, the word AND would mean that it it needs to be used in conjunction with whatever comes before it. So in this case, they would need to kneel or fall down while also making no effort to advance.

mans not in your line of work. In NFL where officials can apply common sense 

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Here are the new kickoff rules. They're not relevant to this discussion.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/kickoff-rules/

they 100% are when then safe signal has been used ALL YEAR as I am not intending to return the Ball. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

So a runner who steps out of bounds isn’t down as long as he still has a desire to advance?  ***** is about to get interesting on the sidelines.

I think technically it should be written like this:

 

(e) (i)when a runner is out of bounds, or (ii)declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

I was taught to play to the whistle in F'ing Pee-wee football.

 

Was a whistle blown by the Head official?

Obviously not. He signaled TD Bills, after all. 

[apuszczalowski]

6 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

No desire to advance. Did he have a desire to advance?  
 

wait you don’t want common sense rules? 
 

 

So what you want is for officials to start making calls based on what they feel someone intends to do? Well the QB was being tackled behind the LOS and the ball came loose, but common sense says he was trying to throw it away so it's an incomplete catch even though he never threw the ball....

[Billl]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

mans not in your line of work. In NFL where officials can apply common sense 

Not to mention the fact that judges absolutely take clear intent as well as precedent into account when making their ruling.  No judge is going to overturn hundreds of cases of precedent over an Oxford comma.

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He didn't signal fair catch. This is the point. Fair catch is a legally defined motion, arm waving above head. He would have absolutely been within his right to take a few steps and then start running, as evidenced by Greg Olsen who saw Devin Hester do the exact thing:

 

 

I know that and I don’t maintain that he did. I was answering a hypothetical regarding an attempted return after a fair catch. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, K-9 said:

I know that and I don’t maintain that he did. I was answering a hypothetical regarding an attempted return after a fair catch. 

Sorry I keep jumping around lmao

[Billl]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I think technically it should be written like this:

 

(e) (i)when a runner is out of bounds, or (ii)declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance

I don’t think you need the bold.  If you remove the last comma, it works.  As written (poorly), the “no effort to advance” portion applies to the entire section.  Rules simply can’t be written perfectly enough to cover every eventuality.  This is why common sense must be applied.  If it’s going to be enforced differently, it needs to first be made a public point of emphasis.

[GoBills808]

If someone can find me just ONE example of a kickoff returner making the safe signal, catching the ball, and then handing it to the ref WITHOUT kneeling first I will never speak of this again. 

[KD in CA]

Of all the cluster*****s in the last 30 minutes of that game (there were 387 by my count), this is the play people are clinging to?   Come on....

[May Day 10]

How many seconds, and what degree of intent does a returner need to show before a play is determined to be unreturnable and the returner can just throw the ball on the ground?

 

Isnt it just easier to go by the written rules of fair catch, bounce in the end zone, or kneel?

Edited January 7, 2020 by May Day 10

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

I don’t think you need the bold.  If you remove the last comma, it works.  As written (poorly), the “no effort to advance” portion applies to the entire section.  Rules simply can’t be written perfectly enough to cover every eventuality.  This is why common sense must be applied.  If it’s going to be enforced differently, it needs to first be made a public point of emphasis.

I think what transpired on Saturday just may serve as the catalyst for it to be made a public point of emphasis. Witness this debate in this thread. Glad you’re also a fan of common sense. That makes three in this thread, I think.

[Real McClappy]

9 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Obviously not. He signaled TD Bills, after all. 

so, it's text book 101?

 

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If someone can find me just ONE example of a kickoff returner making the safe signal, catching the ball, and then handing it to the ref WITHOUT kneeling first I will never speak of this again. 

Not even kneeling, tossing the ball away like a fool before the whistle is at least blown. You might find a video out there of a similar scenario but would almost guarantee you will hear a whistle blow before the player chucks it to the Ref. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Real McNasty

[K-9]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

I don’t care what Devin Hester did BEFORE the KO rules are changed 

This is not an insignificant point here. Devin Hester never returned a kick from nine yards deep AFTER signaling his blockers that the return is off. If memory serves, he had pretty good blocking on his way to the endzone after he played possum and the coverage team let up.

[apuszczalowski]

5 minutes ago, Billl said:

Not to mention the fact that judges absolutely take clear intent as well as precedent into account when making their ruling.  No judge is going to overturn hundreds of cases of precedent over an Oxford comma.

You are right, judges all the time make common sense rulings on cases all the time. Rules and laws are only written by lawyers and legal teams cause they are cheaper then anyone else. Attempted murder? Why is that even a possibility, common sense says that the person was trying to kill someone else so why don't they just convict them of what they were intending to do?

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

so, it's text book 101?

 

Not even kneeling, tossing the ball away like a fool before the whistle is at least blown. You might find a video out there of a similar scenario but would almost guarantee you will hear a whistle blow before the player chucks it to the Ref. 

Sure. At least until common sense has an opportunity to prevail, as in this instance.

6 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

Of all the cluster*****s in the last 30 minutes of that game (there were 387 by my count), this is the play people are clinging to?   Come on....

I know, right? What a pitiful display of whining to behold. 

[Billl]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I think what transpired on Saturday just may serve as the catalyst for it to be made a public point of emphasis. Witness this debate in this thread. Glad you’re also a fan of common sense. That makes three in this thread, I think.

There literally isn’t a rule written to address this situation.  If anything, it’s an illegal forward pass.  That would create a dead ball (touchback) and a 5 yard penalty.  In this case, that would place the ball at the 15.  No matter how you look at it, it’s neither a touchdown nor a safety.

[Braedenstearns]

21 minutes ago, K-9 said:

He would be assessed an unsportsmanlike penalty. You can’t fake a fair catch. 

But that’s not considered a fair catch! That’s what I mean. It wouldn’t have been considered a fair catch, and I can almost guarantee it would have went back to “he didn’t take a knee”

[Jauronimo]

28 minutes ago, Cotton Fitzsimmons said:

Jauronimo, my good friend, you make sn excellent point here. The issue is, when we’ve seen this gesture (both arms out) the returner is signaling to his blockers and he lets the ball land. The problem is, he then fielded the ball and didn’t down it. There was no whistle and the ball was live. You can see the official was also confused and looked at him as if to say “are you downing it or bringing it out?” 
 

The issue comes in, if the shoe were on the other foot. Had the return team trotted off the field and this joker takes off and returns it for a TD, does anyone think that would’ve been taken off the board?
 

I thought the panel with John Fox/Trey Wingo was particularly insightful on this. They all made the point, if you’re in victory formation, everyone may know your intent, but you still have to execute the snap and take a knee. 
 

And there’s a lot of precedent for weird kick returner/live ball fiascos. YE OLE can never remember one of these blunders being reversed due to “intent”

 

 

 

For the record, I agree with Ye Ole 500%.  Had the return man been ruled down initially, its doubtful I would have noticed.  But I think its a travesty that the official made the call on the field of a live ball and abandoned the ruling under the pressure of the situation and then deemed it as "gave himself up". 

 

I respect K-9 and Alphadawg and their contributions to this fine board which dwarf my own, but I respectfully disagree with their opinions on this matter which may have been lost in my last post.

[Meatloaf63]

12 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

mans not in your line of work. In NFL where officials can apply common sense 

they 100% are when then safe signal has been used ALL YEAR as I am not intending to return the Ball. 

If they apply common sense, why was Fords block flagged for a blind side hit when it wasn’t even close? Why weren’t the Texans flagged for delay of game when the clock reached zero, common sense says when a clock reaches zero, your time is up. That’s why it’s important to follow the rule book. The player merely had to drop to his knee or not catch it at all, he screwed up and you want to give him a pass. He was lazy and you want to reward him. You have also dug yourself in on something you just won’t admit you are wrong about. Be a man an admit it...

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

There literally isn’t a rule written to address this situation.  If anything, it’s an illegal forward pass.  That would create a dead ball (touchback) and a 5 yard penalty.  In this case, that would place the ball at the 15.  No matter how you look at it, it’s neither a touchdown nor a safety.

Damn! Now that’s something to consider! My head is gonna explode going though the permutations here.

1 minute ago, Braedenstearns said:

But that’s not considered a fair catch! That’s what I mean. It wouldn’t have been considered a fair catch, and I can almost guarantee it would have went back to “he didn’t take a knee”

Of course. I was referring to an actual fair catch. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Damn! Now that’s something to consider! My head is gonna explode going though the permutations here.

Foul on offense in the endzone is a safety 

[Rocbillsfan1]

28 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Spoken like a tough guy? 
 

How tough do you have to be to accept the fact that you can’t change a ref’s call and that 65 other plays on both sides of the ball during the course of a contest have a bearing on the outcome as well? How tough do you have to be to face disappointment head on? How tough do you have to be to realize that incessant whining about officials is nothing more than a loser’s lament? 

Find another thread this isn’t about that. 

[Real McClappy]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Foul on offense in the endzone is a safety 

And that's the exact outcome that should have came on a proper review. 

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

Find another thread this isn’t about that. 

Too late. You made it about that when you introduced the “tough guy” trope to the thread. 

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Foul on offense in the endzone is a safety 

Yep. Just realized that. 

[Meatloaf63]

6 minutes ago, Billl said:

There literally isn’t a rule written to address this situation.  If anything, it’s an illegal forward pass.  That would create a dead ball (touchback) and a 5 yard penalty.  In this case, that would place the ball at the 15.  No matter how you look at it, it’s neither a touchdown nor a safety.

Actually there is, and it’s a safety....

“If a player of the team which intercepts, catches, or recovers the ball commits a live-ball foul in the end zone, it is a safety. If a player who intercepts, catches, or recovers the ball throws a completed illegal forward pass from the end zone, the ball remains alive.“

 

[Rocbillsfan1]

23 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

really it is black and white. How many times has PI been called right?  Is there HOLDING called on Every play?  According to black and white rules their should be. 
 

guess what right call. And now I am done 

PI is purely subjective and everyone knows this, so is holding. You know what’s not, what happened on the kickoff. It’s like arguing a charge or blocking in basketball when talking about PI and holding .

 

 your anger sounds more like a defense mechanism about being salty that the bills lost. I’m sad they lost but I’m more upset about what the nfl has become and that’s pure nonsense entertainment. 

[GoBills808]

Bump

21 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If someone can find me just ONE example of a kickoff returner making the safe signal, catching the ball, and then handing it to the ref WITHOUT kneeling first I will never speak of this again.