Does CFB Championship game end the “they can beat a pro team” stuff finally?

[Kirby Jackson]

46 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yet Alabama just got blown out by another College team.  Case closed.  They won’t win nor cover against a pro team.  It’s not even a question.  

Win and cover 28.5 points can’t be used interchangeably as you are trying to do. No one talked about winning. Vegas talked about 28.5. That’s where Las Vegas would have set the line at that point. It never was an asinine discussion. At that point in the year the Bills were on pace for one of the worst offenses of all-time and Bama was rolling.

 

The Bills then inserted a backup rookie WR from Alabama and their 2nd corner into the starting lineup and improved greatly. Do you not see the irony of this? The Bills leading receiver was a backup at Alabama and realistically would have been their 4th or 5th option if he were still there. Wallace was a walk-on. We aren’t talking about former Alabama stars (although Wallace finished his career strong). We are talking about the “worker bees” of their program making a massive difference on our team as rookies. 

 

I’m going to bow out of this now because otherwise it will keep going round and round. The point was that it is possible that 1/3 of the 1st round (Miller is projecting 1/4 but not including Lawrence or a few others that can go in the 1st) is made up of guys from those 2 schools. People keep referring to “a college team” and the point was these 2 teams are different. Clemson best ND by 30, Wake Forest by 60 and Louisville by 61. Those are all good to great college programs. Their talent and program is in a different league than Clemson. The conversation was never about “a college team.” It was about 1 (now 2) very specific examples that have won the last 4 titles. These programs are young pro teams not good college teams. If you are playing there now, you will be playing on Sunday. That’s where recruiting is. The question was, and is, “would a team full of NFL players that are 19-22 cover 28.5 against a low end NFL team?” That was the question that Vegas raised. 

[mannc]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

And again, there really is a talent gap.

 

Even most first rounders don't play nearly as well as rookies as they do two or three years down the road. And while a lack of mental preparation is a large part of that, there's simply a lot more to it.

 

At age 21 and 22 these kids aren't nearly as strong as they will be in a couple of years, as men rather than young men.

 

Talent, as far as it would affect a college team playing an NFL team, isn't about eventual potential talent. It's about ability to play well RIGHT NOW, today!!!! Without a training camp. Without a first season and without two or three more. If you're talking about talent as far as having the kind of body frame that can be built into an NFL player, yeah, Alabama and maybe Clemson are beyond the other college teams. But if you're talking about talent in terms of whether a starter from the Crimson Tide can step right out of Tuscaloosa and one week later show the kind of talent to look good in the NFL ... nah. There would absolutely be a "talent at this moment gap," to make up an awkward phrase. Put 'im up against a fourth-rounder who's put on 25 pounds, spent three or four or five or however many years getting stronger in the pros, grooving his skills and learning what it takes to play in the pros and there might be one or two guys who could manage it. Maybe.

 

Even with the 28.5 points, I'd bet the pros in a second. And I don't bet.

 

It wouldn't be surprising to see the college guys lose by sixty. Especially as probably half of those eventual first rounders are still learning the college game as 19 or 20 year-old red-shirt freshmen or whatever.

You apparently haven’t been following college football, or at least Clemson and Alabama.  These guys are grown-ass men.  Alabama’s offensive and defensive lines are as big (or bigger than) the Bills’ lines.  Guys coming to the nfl out of these 2 programs are not magically putting on 25 pounds when they join the league.  25 year olds are not generally bigger and stronger than 21 and 22 year olds.

 

At least 14 guys from last year’s Alabama team (mostly day one and day two picks) played in the NFL this year, including guys who didn’t even start.  And this year the numbers will probably be similar.  This year’s Alabama team probably fielded 7-9 guys who will be first round picks this year or next.  No NFL team has that many first round picks on its roster. And while most of those guys will improve somewhat after being drafted, they are all going to be starters or rotational guys right away, not four or five years from now.  That is a massive amount of elite athletic talent.

 

Hell, there is not even a massive talent gap between guys in the NFL and a lot of guys who aren’t. Every week we see guys who are street free agents come in and make difference in actual NFL games.  

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Win and cover 28.5 points can’t be used interchangeably as you are trying to do. No one talked about winning. Vegas talked about 28.5. That’s where Las Vegas would have set the line at that point. It never was an asinine discussion. At that point in the year the Bills were on pace for one of the worst offenses of all-time and Bama was rolling.

 

The Bills then inserted a backup rookie WR from Alabama and their 2nd corner into the starting lineup and improved greatly. Do you not see the irony of this? The Bills leading receiver was a backup at Alabama and realistically would have been their 4th or 5th option if he were still there. Wallace was a walk-on. We aren’t talking about former Alabama stars (although Wallace finished his career strong). We are talking about the “worker bees” of their program making a massive difference on our team as rookies. 

 

I’m going to bow out of this now because otherwise it will keep going round and round. The point was that it is possible that 1/3 of the 1st round (Miller is projecting 1/4 but not including Lawrence or a few others that can go in the 1st) is made up of guys from those 2 schools. People keep referring to “a college team” and the point was these 2 teams are different. Clemson best ND by 30, Wake Forest by 60 and Louisville by 61. Those are all good to great college programs. Their talent and program is in a different league than Clemson. The conversation was never about “a college team.” It was about 1 (now 2) very specific examples that have won the last 4 titles. These programs are young pro teams not good college teams. If you are playing there now, you will be playing on Sunday. That’s where recruiting is. The question was, and is, “would a team full of NFL players that are 19-22 cover 28.5 against a low end NFL team?” That was the question that Vegas raised. 

 

Alabama just lost by more than 28.5 to a college team. Case closed.  They wouldn’t win or cover.

 

And no, the question was NOT that, now you’re changing narratives.  It was would ALABAMA beat or cover the spread.  Not a group of “NFL players between 19-22”.  Stop making your own story and rules up lol.

 

PS:  Many people here, in the media, and social media literally said Alabama would also outright win the game.  So you keep saying no one said that, but that’s completely wrong.  

Edited January 17, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Alabama just lost by more than 28.5 to a college team. Case closed.  They wouldn’t win or cover.

 

PS:  Many people here, in the media, and social media literally said Alabama would also outright win the game.  So you keep saying no one said that, but that’s completely wrong.  

 

 

as a college football addict, i keep reminding myself every year to not pay ANY serious attention to

 

game results

stats

momentum

polls

 

until the rivalry games in November or the games (thank goodness) where two top25 teams squares off in pre-conference play

 

stomping on 10 cupcakes is totally meaningless as a reference point to the games that only matter at the end of November...

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Alabama just lost by more than 28.5 to a college team. Case closed.  They wouldn’t win or cover.

 

And no, the question was NOT that, now you’re changing narratives.  It was would ALABAMA beat or cover the spread.  Not a group of “NFL players between 19-22”.  Stop making your own story and rules up lol.

 

PS:  Many people here, in the media, and social media literally said Alabama would also outright win the game.  So you keep saying no one said that, but that’s completely wrong.  

Again, stop using “win or cover” interchangeably. Cover is the question. Alabama IS A team of 19-22 year old pros. We are starting their backups!! Every single guy that starts there will be in the NFL. You need to pay attention to recruiting to understand that. The recruiting world has changed drastically in the last 5 years. This conversation has changed drastically because of it. These aren’t regional teams anymore. They are all-star teams assembled with the best players around the country. They are young pros not yet in the league. They are at these schools because they prepare guys for the next level. Alabama pays their strength coach more than Akron pays their head coach. 

 

No reasonable person talked about an outright win. I started the thread when I saw the post from Westgate Las Vegas. It was ALWAYS about 28.5. Some people elected to change the narrative to strengthen their case. I did, and still believe, that Clemson and Alabama could be within 4 TDs of a bad NFL team. They certainly have more 1st rounders playing than any NFL team does. There isn’t a talent gap, size gap or speed gap. There is an experience gap that is massive. We literally plugged in a backup WR that would have been their 4th or 5th option (Jeudy, DeVonta Smith, Ruggs, Waddle and Irv Smith) this year and he was our number 1. 

 

This conversation can’t be had with someone that doesn’t follow the specific personnel. You cant look at this situation and say “no college team could cover.” You need to analyze the matchups to see where the issues would lie. The interior DL of Alabama and Clemson would give FITS to Bodine, Miller and Teller. The guys at Clemson will both be off the board by 20. They are better now than any of our interior OL. Ferrell will be a top 10 pick as a pass rusher. Are we supposed to believe that Jordan Mills will shut him down? Trevor Lawrence is thought of as the best QB prospect since Peyton. Ettiene is going in round 1 next year. The receivers are young but loaded, etc... I don’t know how anyone paying attention can look at the specific players and not see this?  Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “LA LA LA LA LA LA” doesn’t move the conversation forward. This isn’t a conversation that can be had at 10,000 feet. It needs to be held at the player level. 

[row_33]

36 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, stop using “win or cover” interchangeably. Cover is the question. Alabama IS A team of 19-22 year old pros. We are starting their backups!! Every single guy that starts there will be in the NFL. You need to pay attention to recruiting to understand that. The recruiting world has changed drastically in the last 5 years. This conversation has changed drastically because of it. These aren’t regional teams anymore. They are all-star teams assembled with the best players around the country. They are young pros not yet in the league. They are at these schools because they prepare guys for the next level. Alabama pays their strength coach more than Akron pays their head coach. 

 

No reasonable person talked about an outright win. I started the thread when I saw the post from Westgate Las Vegas. It was ALWAYS about 28.5. Some people elected to change the narrative to strengthen their case. I did, and still believe, that Clemson and Alabama could be within 4 TDs of a bad NFL team. They certainly have more 1st rounders playing than any NFL team does. There isn’t a talent gap, size gap or speed gap. There is an experience gap that is massive. We literally plugged in a backup WR that would have been their 4th or 5th option (Jeudy, DeVonta Smith, Ruggs, Waddle and Irv Smith) this year and he was our number 1. 

 

This conversation can’t be had with someone that doesn’t follow the specific personnel. You cant look at this situation and say “no college team could cover.” You need to analyze the matchups to see where the issues would lie. The interior DL of Alabama and Clemson would give FITS to Bodine, Miller and Teller. The guys at Clemson will both be off the board by 20. They are better now than any of our interior OL. Ferrell will be a top 10 pick as a pass rusher. Are we supposed to believe that Jordan Mills will shut him down? Trevor Lawrence is thought of as the best QB prospect since Peyton. Ettiene is going in round 1 next year. The receivers are young but loaded, etc... I don’t know how anyone paying attention can look at the specific players and not see this?  Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “LA LA LA LA LA LA” doesn’t move the conversation forward. This isn’t a conversation that can be had at 10,000 feet. It needs to be held at the player level. 

 

attend a pro training camp for the rookies, they have to teach them everything and i mean everything about how to play pro football

 

children can't play against the men, many of the children will turn out to be starters in the pros some day

 

[mannc]

17 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

attend a pro training camp for the rookies, they have to teach them everything and i mean everything about how to play pro football

 

children can't play against the men, many of the children will turn out to be starters in the pros some day

 

Another post in this thread utterly devoid of facts, failing to respond to the well-supported argument that Bama and Clemson could absolutely compete with bottom tier NFL teams.

[Alphadawg7]

Alright, I didn't want to have to do this again, but you have forced my hand here.  And I mean no disrespect to you, nothing personal here, but its just you are saying so many incorrect statements that now I have to address them in order to fairly participate in the dialogue with you.  I am going to use capital words to highlight very important words, not to simulate "yelling".

 

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, stop using “win or cover” interchangeably. Cover is the question. Alabama IS A team of 19-22 year old pros. We are starting their backups!! Every single guy that starts there will be in the NFL. You need to pay attention to recruiting to understand that. The recruiting world has changed drastically in the last 5 years. This conversation has changed drastically because of it. These aren’t regional teams anymore. They are all-star teams assembled with the best players around the country. They are young pros not yet in the league. They are at these schools because they prepare guys for the next level. Alabama pays their strength coach more than Akron pays their head coach. 

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong.  Alabama does not have a single NFL player on its roster.  They are STILL in COLLEGE.  You are absolutely categorically wrong on this.  Not one kid on Alabama has gone through an OTA, practice, training camp, preseason, etc let alone taken a single NFL snap.  They are NOT NFL ready as they sit in their locker room right now.  NFL game is massively different than the College game. You and others are falsifying these statements (unintentionally) and using the kids FUTURE selves to project them into a SINGLE game RIGHT NOW as is.  Rookies week 1 of the NFL have the benefit of an entire NFL offseason to get ready for that game, and VERY VERY VERY FEW come in week 1 and dominate as high quality starters in their very first NFL game. 

 

Further more, its 100% factually wrong that all 11 starters on either side of the ball are NFL Draft picks right now this very second.  There are SOME kids going to the NFL in this draft, others are NOT ready and will NOT be in the draft THIS year, some not for 2 or 3 more years..  You dont get to take the kids FUTURE peaks and project them into a game TODAY.  There are no time machines.  So you are 1 million percent categorically wrong in this statement, its not even defensible.  

 

Secondly, this is FOOTBALL...more people play through a game than just the starters.  To just focus on the starters is to just prove the flaws in any case you can make.  The bench plays a LOT across any football team.  This isn't Baseball or Basketball where you can ride the starters if you need to.  Football is fast, violent, and exhausting, players rotate a lot. 

 

And MOST importantly...who cares if players make the NFL, that does NOT make them ALL good starters in the NFL.  All 22 of Alabamas starters across the offense and defense THIS year will NOT all be GOOD NFL starters for their whole careers, and in fact, it won't even be HALF them and thats me being generous.  In fact, all 22 won't even make the NFL as there are not currently 11 players on the Alabama offense that will go to the NFL.

 

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

No reasonable person talked about an outright win. I started the thread when I saw the post from Westgate Las Vegas. It was ALWAYS about 28.5. Some people elected to change the narrative to strengthen their case. I did, and still believe, that Clemson and Alabama could be within 4 TDs of a bad NFL team. They certainly have more 1st rounders playing than any NFL team does. There isn’t a talent gap, size gap or speed gap. There is an experience gap that is massive. We literally plugged in a backup WR that would have been their 4th or 5th option (Jeudy, DeVonta Smith, Ruggs, Waddle and Irv Smith) this year and he was our number 1. 

 

First, MANY MANY MANY people discussed Alabama actually winning the game. Just because you didn't, doesn't mean others were not saying that.  So you can stop saying no one said that.  

 

Secondly, all year this was about Alabama, not Clemson.  So lets stick with your "it was about covering the spread" argument only as thats the only opinion in this discussion as you claim to have never said anything about them winning the game and I will take your word on that.  The case for Alabama was that it could cover that spread all year (and win, but again, we will leave that part behind here) as they sit right now this second.  Not guys who go through NFL training camps, this Alabama team today.  One argument is that it was the best defense ever for Alabama.  Yet funny, everyone says this isnt even close to their best defense and it has flaws.  That defense just let a 19 year old freshman eat them alive in COLLEGE and blow them out.  The Alabama offense couldn't score and got blown out against a COLLEGE defense.  

 

Alabama was not able to cover the proposed 28.5 point spread in a COLLEGE game.  Lawerence is an EXCITING prospect.  But here is a REALITY check.  If you took Lawerence right this second, with no NFL training of any kind, no camp, no preseason, no practice, no OTA's etc...and put him on an NFL offense and made him start against an NFL defense today, he would get eaten alive.  He is going to probably be the first pick in the draft (barring injury or some sort of Leinart, Brohm, Locker type dip in performance) one day, but TODAY he is NOT ready to START an NFL game as he stands right now.  Yet that same kid just obliterated that famed Alabama defense. 

 

The Alabama Defense is NOT going to be able to stop an NFL offense nor is that Alabama offense going to be able to score on an NFL defense.  They would lose by 50+ points, and its not even really debatable.  Thats like all the foolish comments that said Mayweather was going to lose that bout a couple weeks ago against the utterly dominant young kickboxing champion. It was laughable, and I hate Floyd but even I knew that was going to be a joke as Floyd actually knocked him out in what was an exhibition. 

 

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

This conversation can’t be had with someone that doesn’t follow the specific personnel. You cant look at this situation and say “no college team could cover.” You need to analyze the matchups to see where the issues would lie. The interior DL of Alabama and Clemson would give FITS to Bodine, Miller and Teller. The guys at Clemson will both be off the board by 20. They are better now than any of our interior OL. Ferrell will be a top 10 pick as a pass rusher. Are we supposed to believe that Jordan Mills will shut him down? Trevor Lawrence is thought of as the best QB prospect since Peyton. Ettiene is going in round 1 next year. The receivers are young but loaded, etc... I don’t know how anyone paying attention can look at the specific players and not see this?  Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “LA LA LA LA LA LA” doesn’t move the conversation forward. This isn’t a conversation that can be had at 10,000 feet. It needs to be held at the player level. 

 

Please dont tell me I dont follow, just because I didn't feel like having to rewrite what I have already written in this thread and others because you didn't take the time to scroll back and read my posts.  Every single point you have made on this subject is not rooted in the reality of this situation.  You cant take the "future" versions of these kids, its these kids TODAY and there are not 22 kids ready to start AND BE GOOD AT IT at the NFL level on either roster.  And you DONT get to combine their rosters, its one or the other.  I find it MOST hilarious that people NOW want to change the narrative to Clemson since Alabama already proved they cant even beat a College team nor covered the proposed 28.5 spread.  But this whole entire discussion was ALL about Alabama, not Clemson.  Doesn't matter though, Clemson wouldn't do it either.  

 

And Lawerence may end up being the best QB prospect since Manning, but he is NOT that yet.  Manning had 3 more years of school, learning the game, and growth BEFORE he Entered the NFL, and then guess what...HE WAS NOT GOOD AS A ROOKIE!!!!  Now you want me to believe that a FRESHMAN QB, with 3 years less school, physical growth, coaching, and development who also has NOT gone through an NFL OTA, practice, training camp, or preseason is going to step on to a field against an NFL defense today and light them up????  COME ON MAN, the absurdity of that is so off the charts I cant believe someone is authentically even suggesting it.  

 

PS:  Peyton Manning:  Threw 3 INTS in his FIRST NFL game.  He also threw 11 INT' in his FIRST 4 games.  Stop stop stop with this Lawerence can beat an NFL defense today stuff.  Lawerence has 2 more years min to play BEFORE he can be the next Manning Prospect, and even then he likely won't be ready to light up an NFL defense in his first start BEFORE he has even taken a single snap of NFL practice just like Manning wasn't.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, mannc said:

Another post in this thread utterly devoid of facts, failing to respond to the well-supported argument that Bama and Clemson could absolutely compete with bottom tier NFL teams.

I think Alpha is right and that a bad NFL team would utterly slaughter Bama or Clemson. What do so many top prospects in the league say in the midst of training camp? "Man, everyone here is good." Both Clemson and Alabama have weak spots on both sides of the ball that an NFL coaching staff  -- which is far more prepared than any college staff going into a game -- will ruthlessly and repeatedly expose. 

59 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, stop using “win or cover” interchangeably. Cover is the question. Alabama IS A team of 19-22 year old pros. We are starting their backups!! Every single guy that starts there will be in the NFL. You need to pay attention to recruiting to understand that. The recruiting world has changed drastically in the last 5 years. This conversation has changed drastically because of it. These aren’t regional teams anymore. They are all-star teams assembled with the best players around the country. They are young pros not yet in the league. They are at these schools because they prepare guys for the next level. Alabama pays their strength coach more than Akron pays their head coach. 

 

No reasonable person talked about an outright win. I started the thread when I saw the post from Westgate Las Vegas. It was ALWAYS about 28.5. Some people elected to change the narrative to strengthen their case. I did, and still believe, that Clemson and Alabama could be within 4 TDs of a bad NFL team. They certainly have more 1st rounders playing than any NFL team does. There isn’t a talent gap, size gap or speed gap. There is an experience gap that is massive. We literally plugged in a backup WR that would have been their 4th or 5th option (Jeudy, DeVonta Smith, Ruggs, Waddle and Irv Smith) this year and he was our number 1. 

 

This conversation can’t be had with someone that doesn’t follow the specific personnel. You cant look at this situation and say “no college team could cover.” You need to analyze the matchups to see where the issues would lie. The interior DL of Alabama and Clemson would give FITS to Bodine, Miller and Teller. The guys at Clemson will both be off the board by 20. They are better now than any of our interior OL. Ferrell will be a top 10 pick as a pass rusher. Are we supposed to believe that Jordan Mills will shut him down? Trevor Lawrence is thought of as the best QB prospect since Peyton. Ettiene is going in round 1 next year. The receivers are young but loaded, etc... I don’t know how anyone paying attention can look at the specific players and not see this?  Sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “LA LA LA LA LA LA” doesn’t move the conversation forward. This isn’t a conversation that can be had at 10,000 feet. It needs to be held at the player level. 

Wallace was a starter all season in his senior year. He got better every year--which is kinda Alpha's point! He's a FAR better player now than he was at Bama. The coaching in the NFL is also far, far, far, far more rigorous than in college.

Edited January 17, 2019 by dave mcbride

[mannc]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And Lawerence may end up being the best QB prospect since Manning, but he is NOT that yet.  Manning had 3 more years of school, learning the game, and growth BEFORE he Entered the NFL, and then guess what...HE WAS NOT GOOD AS A ROOKIE!!!!  Now you want me to believe that a FRESHMAN QB, with 3 years less school, physical growth, coaching, and development who also has NOT gone through an NFL OTA, practice, training camp, or preseason is going to step on to a field against an NFL defense today and light them up????  COME ON MAN, the absurdity of that is so off the charts I cant believe someone is authentically even suggesting it.  

 

PS:  Peyton Manning:  Threw 3 INTS in his FIRST NFL game.  He also threw 11 INT' in his FIRST 4 games.  Stop stop stop with this Lawerence can beat an NFL defense today stuff.  Lawerence has 2 more years min to play BEFORE he can be the next Manning Prospect, and even then he likely won't be ready to light up an NFL defense in his first start BEFORE he has even taken a single snap of NFL practice just like Manning wasn't.

 

 

Stop with your “it’s not debatable” nonsense.  You haven’t refuted a single statement that Kirby made, so stop pretending you have.

 

No one is saying Lawrence or Tua would light up the NFL right now (although Desaun Watson did as a rookie), but it’s ridiculous to argue that they aren’t better right now than some of the stiffs who won games in the NFL this year, like CJ Betheard and the immortal Brock Osweiler.

 

[row_33]

there hasn't been a college WR that could do anything useful matched up against even the worst man in the NFL secondary

 

 

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

there hasn't been a college WR that could do anything useful matched up against even the worst man in the NFL secondary

 

 

You’re joking, right?

[Alphadawg7]

41 minutes ago, mannc said:

Stop with your “it’s not debatable” nonsense.  You haven’t refuted a single statement that Kirby made, so stop pretending you have.

 

No one is saying Lawrence or Tua would light up the NFL right now (although Desaun Watson did as a rookie), but it’s ridiculous to argue that they aren’t better right now than some of the stiffs who won games in the NFL this year, like CJ Betheard and the immortal Brock Osweiler.

 

 

Watson passed for 105 yards in his first NFL start after 2 more years of college experience, and NFL offseason consisting of OTAs, practice, and preseason and whole throwing to Elite NFL received in Hopkins. 

 

#Refuted.

[mannc]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Watson passed for 105 yards in his first NFL start after 2 more years of college experience, and NFL offseason consisting of OTAs, practice, and preseason and whole throwing to Elite NFL received in Hopkins. 

 

#Refuted.

And he beat the Bengals on the road in that game.

 

#Owned

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, mannc said:

And he beat the Bengals on the road in that game.

 

#Owned

 

Hahahaha OMG.  So you think Tua passing for 105 yards is gonna cover a 28.5 point spread against NFL team!?!?

 

#ObliteratedAndStillRefuted.

[Kirby Jackson]

56 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think Alpha is right and that a bad NFL team would utterly slaughter Bama or Clemson. What do so many top prospects in the league say in the midst of training camp? "Man, everyone here is good." Both Clemson and Alabama have weak spots on both sides of the ball that an NFL coaching staff  -- which is far more prepared than any college staff going into a game -- will ruthlessly and repeatedly expose. 

Wallace was a starter all season in his senior year. He got better every year--which is kinda Alpha's point! He's a FAR better player now than he was at Bama. The coaching in the NFL is also far, far, far, far more rigorous than in college.

Foster was the backup. I have a good friend that played for Saban in college and Belichick in the NFL. There is virtually no difference between the 2 according to him (except Saban is much more vulgar). 

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Hahahaha OMG.  So you think Tua passing for 105 yards is gonna cover a 28.5 point spread against NFL team!?!?

 

#ObliteratedAndStillRefuted.

Well, since NFL teams who pass for 105 yards or less routinely lose by less than 28.5 points, your point is utterly meaningless.

 

#Exposed

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

Well, since NFL teams who pass for 105 yards or less routinely lose by less than 28.5 points, your point is utterly meaningless.

 

#Exposed

 

Huh?  How does this even make sense to this topic?  This isn’t 2 NFL teams facing off, it’s a pro team versus an amateur team lol.  I mean you haven’t really provided any points in trying to make this case that Alabam, who couldn’t cover 28.5 points against a college team would somehow cover 28.5 against a pro team.

 

Let’s just agree to disagree  

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Foster was the backup. I have a good friend that played for Saban in college and Belichick in the NFL. There is virtually no difference between the 2 according to him (except Saban is much more vulgar). 

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this story being accurate as no reason to doubt your authenticity.  

 

However, if you polled 100 players I would bet your friend is the only one who would say that.  I have several friends who played in both college and NFL and none of them would share that opinion.  They talk about how big of a transition it is for rookies and what a shock it is all the time when curbing people’s expectations of rookies first entering the NFL.  Even the pain the 2nd day after a game is a lot worse from the physicality of the NFL game.  The language, playbooks, schemes are all way more immense and complicated.  The biggest thing they always say is how much faster the game is. 

 

And its not even about them, this is a well known part of the game and transition for rookies and why most don’t come flying out of the gate in their first NFL game.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Kirby Jackson]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this story being accurate as no reason to doubt your authenticity.  

 

Howecer, if you polled 100 players I would bet your friend is the only one who would say that.  I have several friends who played in both college and NFL and none of them would share that opinion.  They talk about how big of a transition it is for rookies and what a shock it is all the time when curbing people’s expectations of rookies first entering the NFL.  Even the pain the 2nd day after a game is a lot worse from the physicality of the NFL game.  The language, playbooks, schemes are all way more immense and complicated.  The biggest thing they always say is how much faster the game is. 

 

And its not even about them, this is a well known part of the game and transition for rookies and why most don’t come flying out of the gate in their first NFL game.

Again, I’m not talking about “insert coach here.” We are talking about Alabama and in turn Saban. They are at a different level. We aren’t talking Miami and Mark Richt (or formerly Mark Richt). The move from Saban to the NFL is minimal (which is why his guys flourish so early). 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

And he beat the Bengals on the road in that game.

 

#Owned

He didn't beat them; the defense did. Watson was actually terrible in that game. I watched it.

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Foster was the backup. I have a good friend that played for Saban in college and Belichick in the NFL. There is virtually no difference between the 2 according to him (except Saban is much more vulgar). 

Well, his NFL.com draft profile says he was the starter, and he played all the time. Christ, he led the team in pass breakups.  https://www.nfl.com/prospects/levi-wallace?id=32462018-0002-5599-37dc-f8dc32c7ecf3

[Alphadawg7]

55 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, I’m not talking about “insert coach here.” We are talking about Alabama and in turn Saban. They are at a different level. We aren’t talking Miami and Mark Richt (or formerly Mark Richt). The move from Saban to the NFL is minimal (which is why his guys flourish so early). 

 

Its not though.  I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s just not fully accurate as a whole part of the picture.  That’s one small aspect of the transition.  The speed, the violence, the language, the schemes, the complexity of reading defenses in game and identifying offensive plays is far and beyond anything they have done.

 

There is no denying that playing in college for a guy like Saban has its advantages for players transitioning to the NFL, so you are absolutely right about that.  However, it’s not a magic pill that suddenly makes a college kid a seasoned NFL vet. And this is easily proven because you can go and look at week 1 of the rookie year of every Alabama player under Saban and see how they did.  Many didn’t even play, let alone start.  And the ones who did see the field week 1 of their rookie year, most didn’t have a big game.

 

If what you are saying is true, most Alabama rookies would start week 1 and have significant amount of success in that first start.  And that’s just not true for rookies, even rookies from Alabama.  Doesn’t mean none have some success week 1, but we are talking 22 college starters here, very few will both start and have a big game week 1 of their NFL rookie year.  And again, not all 22 staring Alabam players are even going to make the NFL, let alone be starters.

 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, mannc said:

Stop with your “it’s not debatable” nonsense.  You haven’t refuted a single statement that Kirby made, so stop pretending you have.

 

No one is saying Lawrence or Tua would light up the NFL right now (although Desaun Watson did as a rookie), but it’s ridiculous to argue that they aren’t better right now than some of the stiffs who won games in the NFL this year, like CJ Betheard and the immortal Brock Osweiler.

 

 

Trevor Lawrence now would be the #1 pick in this draft if he was eligible despite being a true freshman. And he would start, week 1. Might the experience gap limit his performance - yes, it definitely might, but as you rightly say Blaine Gabbert and Brock Osweiler won NFL games this year. Lawrence is better than both of them today. Not in 3 years not in 5 years. Now. 

[Bing Bong]

4 hours ago, mannc said:

Stop with your “it’s not debatable” nonsense.  You haven’t refuted a single statement that Kirby made, so stop pretending you have.

 

No one is saying Lawrence or Tua would light up the NFL right now (although Desaun Watson did as a rookie), but it’s ridiculous to argue that they aren’t better right now than some of the stiffs who won games in the NFL this year, like CJ Betheard and the immortal Brock Osweiler.

 

I actually agree with Alpha here. But anybody writing an essay ending every point with condescension like "So you are 1 million percent categorically wrong in this statement, its not even defensible." Makes me want to disagree with him, let alone punch him in the face  

 

Give em your opinion Alpha (they might disagree and have differing opinions!)

 

Facts don't hold much water in a friggin intrasport betting line.

Edited January 17, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[mannc]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this story being accurate as no reason to doubt your authenticity.  

 

However, if you polled 100 players I would bet your friend is the only one who would say that.  I have several friends who played in both college and NFL and none of them would share that opinion.  They talk about how big of a transition it is for rookies and what a shock it is all the time when curbing people’s expectations of rookies first entering the NFL.  Even the pain the 2nd day after a game is a lot worse from the physicality of the NFL game.  The language, playbooks, schemes are all way more immense and complicated.  The biggest thing they always say is how much faster the game is. 

 

And its not even about them, this is a well known part of the game and transition for rookies and why most don’t come flying out of the gate in their first NFL game.

Did your friend play in the SEC recently?  Because that’s what we’re talking about, not UB or Pitt or even Penn State.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

He didn't beat them; the defense did. Watson was actually terrible in that game. I watched it.

Well, his NFL.com draft profile says he was the starter, and he played all the time. Christ, he led the team in pass breakups.  https://www.nfl.com/prospects/levi-wallace?id=32462018-0002-5599-37dc-f8dc32c7ecf3

Foster, not Wallace

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Its not though.  I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s just not fully accurate as a whole part of the picture.  That’s one small aspect of the transition.  The speed, the violence, the language, the schemes, the complexity of reading defenses in game and identifying offensive plays is far and beyond anything they have done.

 

There is no denying that playing in college for a guy like Saban has its advantages for players transitioning to the NFL, so you are absolutely right about that.  However, it’s not a magic pill that suddenly makes a college kid a seasoned NFL vet. And this is easily proven because you can go and look at week 1 of the rookie year of every Alabama player under Saban and see how they did.  Many didn’t even play, let alone start.  And the ones who did see the field week 1 of their rookie year, most didn’t have a big game.

 

If what you are saying is true, most Alabama rookies would start week 1 and have significant amount of success in that first start.  And that’s just not true for rookies, even rookies from Alabama.  Doesn’t mean none have some success week 1, but we are talking 22 college starters here, very few will both start and have a big game week 1 of their NFL rookie year.  And again, not all 22 staring Alabam players are even going to make the NFL, let alone be starters.

 

That speaks to my earlier point that the biggest gap is a mental gap not a physical one. The physical gap is minimal. The gap is a mental one (even from a Saban coaches team). The gap is smaller than coming from Richt (for example) but it exists. They just don’t do the same amount of studying. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

I actually agree with Alpha here. But anybody writing an essay ending every point with condescension like "So you are 1 million percent categorically wrong in this statement, its not even defensible." Makes me want to disagree with him, let alone punch him in the face  

 

Give em your opinion Alpha (they might disagree and have differing opinions!)

 

Facts don't hold much water in a friggin intrasport betting line.

 

Fair enough, but those points were valid in the way I stated them, and my response was prompted by being dragged back into points I have already made numerous times in this thread before.  

 

I get tired of people calling college Kids NFL players when they are not in the NFL yet.  There is 6 months of intense coaching, practice and training that goes into an NFL rookie before they step on a field.  And its not like rookies step into the NFL week 1 in their very first game and dominate the league.  So I also get tired of people time traveling and calling freshman and sophomores “NFL players” who are a min of 1 to 2 years away from the Pros still.  People act like these kids aren’t learning and improving over those years before they enter the NFL.  

 

A game being played today does not have the benefit of what the kids will at some point in the future become.  

 

So this is why I used such strong words to beat down false claims that are repeatedly being tossed into this argument.  It’s just not true.  

Edited January 18, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[dave mcbride]

37 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Foster, not Wallace

That speaks to my earlier point that the biggest gap is a mental gap not a physical one. The physical gap is minimal. The gap is a mental one (even from a Saban coaches team). The gap is smaller than coming from Richt (for example) but it exists. They just don’t do the same amount of studying. 

Kirby: you said alabama players (plural) were rookie starters for the Bills who were backups at alabama. That’s what I was responding to.

Edited January 18, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Kirby: you said alabama players (plural) were rookie starters for the Bills who were backups at alabama. That’s what I was responding to.

Sorry for the confusion. Foster was a back up. Wallace was a walk-on that really came on as his career went along. I didn’t mean players plural. I meant that the rookies that we had were “worker bees” at Alabama not stars. The talent level is just insane at Alabama, Clemson, UGA, OSU and to a lesser extent Oklahoma.

[SinceThe70s]

Has anyone mentioned that Nathan Peterman beat eventual national champion Clemson when he was at Pitt?

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

Has anyone mentioned that Nathan Peterman beat eventual national champion Clemson when he was at Pitt?

 

 

He also beat a bad NFL team. 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Fair enough, but those points were valid in the way I stated them, and my response was prompted by being dragged back into points I have already made numerous times in this thread before.  

 

I get tired of people calling college Kids NFL players when they are not in the NFL yet.  There is 6 months of intense coaching, practice and training that goes into an NFL rookie before they step on a field.  And its not like rookies step into the NFL week 1 in their very first game and dominate the league.  So I also get tired of people time traveling and calling freshman and sophomores “NFL players” who are a min of 1 to 2 years away from the Pros still.  People act like these kids aren’t learning and improving over those years before they enter the NFL.  

 

A game being played today does not have the benefit of what the kids will at some point in the future become.  

 

So this is why I used such strong words to beat down false claims that are repeatedly being tossed into this argument.  It’s just not true.  

Yeah no college team gets close to a 30 point spread against a pro team. First it was Alabama is the all-star team of college talent going to pros. Now Clemson and Alabama are the NFL HOF factories together.. sigh. I guess they're the only 2 (I was told it was just Bama!)

 

I wonder how many other college teams have just as good if not better NFL talent at any given position. Oklahoma, Ohio State.. lol. Bet these guys eventually become All-Pros 4 years later (they won't all be great rookies day 1) as they've grown and been weeded out too! Let me know when every All-Pro in a few years is entirely Clemson and Bama alumns.

Edited January 18, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Yeah no college team gets close to a 30 point spread against a pro team. First it was Alabama is the all-star team of college talent going to pros. Now Clemson and Alabama are the NFL HOF factories together.. sigh. I guess they're the only 2 (I was told it was just Bama!)

 

I wonder how many other college teams have just as good if not better NFL talent at any given position. Oklahoma, Ohio State.. lol

Again, we started a backup and a walk-on (both undrafted) from Alabama. I don’t know how some can be so blind to the “talent gap” when we are starting their “guys.” We aren’t talking about stars, we are talking about “guys.” We plugged them in as rookies and the team improved drastically. These guys aren’t different players than 6 months earlier. They just wore a different jersey. 

[NoSaint]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He also beat a bad NFL team. 

 

That’s kinda the thing, right?

 

even this years bills could knock off a super bowl contender given enough shots. Bama in theory should be able to hang with a bad nfl team occasionally 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

Did your friend play in the SEC recently?  Because that’s what we’re talking about, not UB or Pitt or even Penn State.

Ok, since you want to continue to over exaggerate the SEC and Alabama as if they magically are fielding 22 starters that will magically all be impact players in their first NFL start...I will indulge you:

1. In 2018, Alabama had 12 players drafted, 4 in the first round.  Not exactly 22 players who were all NFL ready.  
2. 7 of them were round 4 or lower.  
3. Almost NONE of them made a week 1 impact, and only a couple even saw the field.  
   1. Payne 1st round pick.  3 tackles.
   2. Fitzpatrick 1st round pick.  Biggest impact, 6 tackles.
   3. Ridley 1st round pick.  O receptions.
   4. Evans 1st round pick.  1 tackle.
   5. NONE of the 4 first round picks registered a single other stat than is listed here.

Where is the NFL production?  These are 4 Alabama first rounders who went through OTA's, off season practices, training camp, preseason, and had more college experience than a lot of the guys on the current Alabama teams.  Yet in their first game against NFL competition they were all mostly irrelevant with only Minkah even making a noticeable appearance.  

 

Most of the remaining drafted Alabama players had very irrelevant first seasons, some not even registering any real stats and some even being cut.  How is this possible you might ask, I mean "NICK SABAN"..."ALABAMA"..."SEC"...what about all this jazz?  One of the better NFL players this season out of Alabama was our own Foster who didn't register a catch for several games before being cut.  It wasnt until he worked his way back did he make an impact.

 

We are talking about ONE GAME that is WITHOUT any development time in the NFL with these kids as exactly as they sit right now.  And here we are, all this hoopla about how great Alabama rookies are, yet they are NOT producing in their FIRST appearance on an NFL field.  And thats with other NFL talent around them, not other young college kids man of which will either not make the NFL or not last long in the NFL.  

 

How many ways do I need to close this case?  Some of these kids drafted will go on to be great players in the NFL, some had great moments as rookies.  But this hypothetical scenario is about these kids IN COLLEGE right now before any of that future NFL development playing one game.  And this Alabama roster does not currently have 22 starters on it who will all make the NFL.  And many of the guys who will, are going to be 4th round picks or lower and go on to have forgettable careers.  And yet this team is facing a roster of 52 NFL professional football players.  

 

And as if we needed more evidence...this Alabama team got blown out by MORE than 28.5 points by their peers in COLLEGE.  

 

I honestly cant fathom how this is still an ongoing discussion.  Its all good, no ill will to anyone, I have enjoyed the convo even in disagreement.  Apologies if any phrasing I used felt rude, wasnt the intention.  But I honestly dont know what else is left to discuss on the matter.

So agree to disagree is a totally fine outcome and everyone is entitled to differing opinions. GO BILLS!

Edited January 18, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

That’s kinda the thing, right?

 

even this years bills could knock off a super bowl contender given enough shots. Bama in theory should be able to hang with a bad nfl team occasionally 

It’s not even “hang” as stay within 4 TDs. People are acting like it’s asinine to think that’s possible. If you look at the personnel though it isn’t that crazy at all.

 

The same goes for Clemson. Some people say, “we’d run all over them.” I look at it and think that they have 2 DTs, and a DE that will be off the board by 20. Am I supposed to believe that Bodine, Miller, Teller, Mills and Dawkins will physically dominate those guys? I certainly don’t believe that. Lawrence, Wilkins and Ferrell are better football players TODAY than any guy on our OL.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Kirby Jackson

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, we started a backup and a walk-on (both undrafted) from Alabama. I don’t know how some can be so blind to the “talent gap” when we are starting their “guys.” We aren’t talking about stars, we are talking about “guys.” We plugged them in as rookies and the team improved drastically. These guys aren’t different players than 6 months earlier. They just wore a different jersey. 

 

Foster registered no catches and got cut BEFORE he became a starter.  You are arguing players after they develop...this is ONE game before ever getting one second of NFL coaching or experience.  So the Foster that would have showed up for this make believe game had it occurred last year is the same Foster who couldn't catch a cold in preseason and got cut after going catchless for several games.

 

You keep using a time machine in all your responses that doesn't exist. Thats the issue.  No one is arguing that Alabama and Clemson have better recruiting and send more players to the draft.  You are just cherry picking players at their future peaks, not their current readiness to face the challenge of the NFL while still attending their college programs.

[SinceThe70s]

28 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He also beat a bad NFL team. 

 

You lost me.

 

Did beating a bad NFL team somehow diminish his win over Clemson with an inferior Pitt team? Are you suggesting that Pitt team was on a par with a bad NFL team? 

 

 

[NoSaint]

37 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Foster registered no catches and got cut BEFORE he became a starter.  You are arguing players after they develop...this is ONE game before ever getting one second of NFL coaching or experience.  So the Foster that would have showed up for this make believe game had it occurred last year is the same Foster who couldn't catch a cold in preseason and got cut after going catchless for several games.

 

You keep using a time machine in all your responses that doesn't exist. Thats the issue.  No one is arguing that Alabama and Clemson have better recruiting and send more players to the draft.  You are just cherry picking players at their future peaks, not their current readiness to face the challenge of the NFL while still attending their college programs.

 

When many examples are 9 months after their last college game is it that crazy?

 

how much better is an nfl rookie team an elite cfb player in the national championship before entering the draft? What’s the differential in ability in that guy?

[ButchCT]

That Clemson QB and o-line might be able to beat the Cardinals.  Only because the QB is that good, IMO.  Let the Trevor Lawrence sweepstakes commence.