Charting Allen's throws vs. Jets

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

 

Great, so we can pretty much pretend Allen will never have a bad or inaccurate throw ever since we can just assume he threw it exactly where he wanted. What a legend. ?

You are being deliberately obtuse now.  Of course he missed some throws.  I outlined the ones I thought he missed earlier.  

 

You don't understand the difference between ooor throws and poor decisions.  It's a simple concept.

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

Why do you continue to ignore that every QB in the NFL has receivers who drop the ball?

Why do you ignore that it may happen more frequently with a poorer receiver corps?

[DuckyBoys]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

No No No

Agreed, 49ers have a dynamic  stud TE, better rbs and sadly Goodwin and Garcon are better than what we have

Cardinals is debatable but I'd still rather have the younger David Johnson and old man Fitz over what we have

Raiders pretty close too but I like Jared Cook

[oldmanfan]

52 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I looked it up, and as usual there's nothing remotely factual about your claim.

 

The Bills pass catchers as a team officially have 15 drops the entire season. 

Sunday the drops would put him at 60%.  I already showed you the math earlier this week , but you prefer to think your supposed understanding of QB play trumps the actual numbers.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Why do you ignore that it may happen more frequently with a poorer receiver corps?

 

It doesn't happen more frequently.

 

The Bills pass catchers have dropped 15 passes all season, and the NFL average is like 13. 

 

You make it sound like our guys are dropping 4-5 passes a game. That's obviously not even remotely true. 

[dave mcbride]

All of the rookie QBs have bad accuracy stats except for Mayfield, who so far is leagues better than all of them. Mayfield is at 64.4, Lamar Jackson is 58.4, Darnold is at 55. 9, Rosen is at 55.4, and Allen is at 52.4. Allen's are the worst, partly because he's only hit 60 percent accuracy once this season (v. Minnesota). He can be pin-point accurate, but he misses badly way too much. He has two issues. The first is the most important: consistency. Lack of consistency is what brings many quarterbacks down. It's been an issue in college and this season. He is young, but it's something to worry about. The second, which many aren't raising, is velocity. That throw to Zay Jones in the second half against the Jets was simply thrown too hard. It may have looked like an easy catch because it hit him in the chest, but that ball was as hard as I've seen a ball throw in some time, and it arrived right after Jones turned around. It wasn't an easy catch at all. He needs to get a LOT better on touch, which is something Darnold clearly has. 

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

Agreed, 49ers have a dynamic  stud TE, better rbs and sadly Goodwin and Garcon are better than what we have

Cardinals is debatable but I'd still rather have the younger David Johnson and old man Fitz over what we have

Raiders pretty close too but I like Jared Cook

 

The question had nothing to do with tight ends. 

 

If it had, I'd agree. 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

The question had nothing to do with tight ends. 

 

If it had, I'd agree. 

?

 

Tight ends are not pass catcher's?  

[Bangarang]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

 

It's right there!!

 

Of course!

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Sunday the drops would put him at 60%.  I already showed you the math earlier this week , but you prefer to think your supposed understanding of QB play trumps the actual numbers.

Some of those drops happen because of a lack of touch on his part. I'm not saying our receivers are a good group, but the rocket velocity is an issue that will produce some drops. Of course,  it also prevents INTs, which is the positive side and not to be discounted. Either way, though, there are going to be more velocity-related incompletions for the Bills than any other team going forward unless he gets better on touch. 

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Sunday the drops would put him at 60%.  I already showed you the math earlier this week , but you prefer to think your supposed understanding of QB play trumps the actual numbers.

 

Do you have a link to how many official drops there actually were?

 

I highly doubt there were 4 in one game and only 15 for the entire season. 

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

?

 

Tight ends are not pass catcher's?  

 

The question said "receivers". 

 

If you're talking about all pass catchers, I agree that the Bills are the worst. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by jrober38

[John from Riverside]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Some of those drops happen because of a lack of touch on his part. I'm not saying our receivers are a good group, but the rocket velocity is an issue that will produce some drops. Of course,  it also prevents INTs, which is the positive side and not to be discounted. Either way, though, there are going to be more velocity-related incompletions for the Bills than any other team going forward unless he gets better on touch. 

God this is such horse *****

 

If a ball hits a pass catcher in both hands THEY SHOULD CATCH IT

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Do you have a link to how many official drops there actually were?

 

I highly doubt there were 4 in one game and only 15 for the entire season. 

 

The question said "receivers". 

Jesus you are straw manning this arguement.....it is so obvious

[dave mcbride]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

God this is such horse *****

 

If a ball hits a pass catcher in both hands THEY SHOULD CATCH IT

Dude. Think. Seriously. Don't be such a homer. It's frustrating reading these posts. When Elway came into the league, he had a ton of velocity-related incompletions simply because he threw it too hard. He had to learn. Allen throws harder than Elway. 

[Mat68]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

All of the rookie QBs have bad accuracy stats except for Mayfield, who so far is leagues better than all of them. Mayfield is at 64.4, Lamar Jackson is 58.4, Darnold is at 55. 9, Rosen is at 55.4, and Allen is at 52.4. Allen's are the worst, partly because he's only hit 60 percent accuracy once this season (v. Minnesota). He can be pin-point accurate, but he misses badly way too much. He has two issues. The first is the most important: consistency. Lack of consistency is what brings many quarterbacks down. It's been an issue in college and this season. He is young, but it's something to worry about. The second, which many aren't raising, is velocity. That throw to Zay Jones in the second half against the Jets was simply thrown too hard. It may have looked like an easy catch because it hit him in the chest, but that ball was as hard as I've seen a ball throw in some time, and it arrived right after Jones turned around. It wasn't an easy catch at all. He needs to get a LOT better on touch, which is something Darnold clearly has. 

I disagree get the ball outside the numbers as quick as possible.  Seperation is there, the ball gets to him with time to gather and make a move to break a tackle.  If he we are debating If he is throwing the ball too hard on a curl Buffalo needs better Wrs outside.  

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Dude. Think. Seriously. Don't be such a homer. It's frustrating reading these posts. When Elway came into the league, he had a ton of velocity-related incompletions simply because he threw it too hard. He had to learn. Allen throws harder than Elway. 

Im not letting a WR off the hook that does not catch a ball that hits them in both hands

 

This is what they get paid to do

[Bangarang]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are being deliberately obtuse now.  Of course he missed some throws.  I outlined the ones I thought he missed earlier.  

 

You don't understand the difference between ooor throws and poor decisions.  It's a simple concept.

 

Right, Allen made a great and precise throw. It was to the wrong team but man what a display of accuracy. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

It doesn't happen more frequently.

 

The Bills pass catchers have dropped 15 passes all season, and the NFL average is like 13. 

 

You make it sound like our guys are dropping 4-5 passes a game. That's obviously not even remotely true. 

Watch last game.  Three at least.  Was even worse when Benjamin was short arming everything.

 

The difference between you and I is one of objectivity.  I freely acknowledge Allen has a ways to go.  He needs to continue working on his shorter passes as an example.  But I also see the positives, and I understand the variables that account for this completion percentage stuff.  

 

You on the other hand made up your mind the day he was drafted he would not be good, and you either twist data to reach a preconceived conclusion or even worse deliberately misuse things to do the same.  Your take on the throw to Clay over the middle Sunday was the most classic of many examples.  Hit a guy in the hands in stride but yet you cling to the bizarre notion that somehow Allen was at fault.

 

I mention this a lot but you wanted to trade an entire draft for Jamie's Winston.  I think that calls into serious question your opinion on NFL quarterbacking in general.  And with Allen it is exacerbated by your desire to be right vs. the desire to have a long term answer for QB.

 

Allen is a rookie with8 games under his belt.  He is nowhere near a finished product.  Quit treating him like he is.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Im not letting a WR off the hook that does not catch a ball that hits them in both hands

 

This is what they get paid to do

You're asking WRs to turn around and catch what was likely a 65+ mph throw. It is not the same as catching, say, a Brady throw. Will the WR catch it sometimes? Yes. But simple logic will tell you that it's going to result in some incompletions, regardless of the quality of the wideout. 

 

Allen literally has the strongest arm in the history of the league. His high velocity throws aren't normal. It can certainly be a good thing, but it's also going to result in drops.

Edited December 11, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Magox]

I got to see that throw again to Clay and initially I thought it was a knee to thigh high pass.  I was wrong, it was a waist level throw right in stride.

 

Another huge drop by Clay and by the looks of it there was no one in sight that could have been at a bare minimum a 30 yard gainer potentially taking it to the house for a TD.

 

Allen is going to have some serious stats once he gets an O line and some other receivers who can actually make some plays.

 

In regards to the several errrrr... Bills fans who have nothing better to do than critique Allen at every turn and not have the wherewithal to recognize that he is showing franchise QB level talent, well I suppose they will come around sometime next year.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

You're asking WRs to turn around and catch what was likely a 65+ mph throw. It is not the same as catching, say, a Brady throw. Will the WR catch it sometimes? Yes. But simple logic will tell you that it's going to result in some incompletions, regardless of the quality of the wideout. 

Lets upgrade them and find out

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Some of those drops happen because of a lack of touch on his part. I'm not saying our receivers are a good group, but the rocket velocity is an issue that will produce some drops. Of course,  it also prevents INTs, which is the positive side and not to be discounted. Either way, though, there are going to be more velocity-related incompletions for the Bills than any other team going forward unless he gets better on touch. 

I think we all agree he needs to develop more touch for some throws.