Democratic 2020 Presidential Primary Thread

[snafu]

2 hours ago, KayAdams said:

IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF "SOCIALISM" AND WANT TO STOP IT, YOUR "TEAM" NEEDS TO ARTICULATE WAYS OF ALLEVIATING THE ECONOMIC CONSTERNATIONS OF MILLENIALS AND GENERATION Z. OTHERWISE, YOU COULD SOON LOSE YOUR POLITICAL POWER. PERHAPS THE VERY FIRST STEP TO STOPPING THIS MOVEMENT IS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE IS, IN FACT, AN ECONOMIC PROBLEM FOR THEM THAT HAS BEEN FESTERING SINCE 1980 BUT ESPECIALLY SINCE 2008.

 

If millennials and Gen-Z’s think that Socialism means they will not need to work hard for what they want, then it is the Socialists who aren’t doing the proper messaging.  If it is the millennials and Gen-Z’s who think they’re the only ones that lived through a hard and deep recession, then they’ve got to look around to see that it’s happened before.  The Depression affected an entire generation+  of people. Socialist “safety net” programs helped, but it shouldn’t go any further than that. For example, alleviating student debt isn’t exactly progressive, is it?  What about people who didn’t go to college — do they just get a handout? Why choose student debt and no other debt? I believe that when Bernie has to explain how this all will work, he’s going to run into serious conceptual problems with voters.

 

[3rdnlng]

Yesterday's news concerned real poverty, soup lines and no money for medicines. Today's reality is the poor complain that they can afford only a 40" flat screen while our unfair system allows the wealthy to have a 75" flat screen in 3-4 rooms. Everything is relative. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

I'd add that we reached the only downside of capitalism in advanced societies, which breeds contempt and envy.  In a land of availability and opulence, many people stopped measuring their progress from where they came from, and now rue the place where they didn't end up.   That's why income inequality pops up into the discussion so much. 

 

It doesn't matter that the US poor have so many more options than they ever did, apparently the only thing that matters is that they don't have Jeff Bezos's checkbook.  And the only solution is apparently to empty Bezos's checkbook and redistribute his cash.

 

The biggest problem that socialists have is not understanding the true incentives to invest and innovate.  Bernie & his acolytes think that the economy will chug along just as well under a heavily taxed and regulated environment, and workers will be as productive.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

What do you say to someone in their 40’s who grew up in domestic poverty, was the first person in their family to go to college, paid their own way through school, started multiple businesses employing dozens of people, risking their own capital and financial future, working a hundred or more hours a week well into their late 30’s, helped their child come out of school debt free both through educating them about debt and to a small degree subsidizing them, then later after selling their businesses (over a period of about 12 years) launched a new career which required constant travel and sacrificing time with family, all to build a legacy of prosperity for future generations of their family, all by themselves?

 

One generation.  Going from living, at one point, out of a van at the age of three with mom and dad, at a KOA campground; growing up in a large Irish Catholic family of 7 supported by dad’s 15k/yr salary; wearing clothes that were either homemade by mom or were donated; living through winters without heat; going to school hungry; to a legacy of financial success that will keep that person’s family out of risk of poverty for generations?

 

What do you say to that individual?

 

How do you convince him that he should now fork over that legacy to those who grew up with silver spoons in their mouths compared to his own upbringing, and sacrifice what he already sacrificed to build to those whom are not willing to walk a path a tenth as long and hard as he himself has?

Edited February 11, 2020 by TakeYouToTasker

[3rdnlng]

15 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

I couldn’t agree more.

 

What do you say to someone in their 40’s who grew up in domestic poverty, was the first person in their family to go to college, paid their own way through school, started multiple businesses employing dozens of people, risking their own capital and financial future, working a hundred or more hours a week well into their late 30’s, helped their child come out of school debt free both through educating them about debt and to a small degree subsidizing them, then later after selling their businesses (over a period of about 12 years) launched a new career which required constant travel and sacrificing time with family, all to build a legacy of prosperity for future generations of their family, all by themselves?

 

One generation.  Going from living, at one point, out of a van at the age of three with mom and dad, at a KOA campground; growing up in a large Irish Catholic family of 7 supported by dad’s 15k/yr salary; wearing clothes that were either homemade by mom or were donated; living through winters without heat; going to school hungry; to a legacy of financial success that will keep that person’s family out of risk of poverty for generations?

 

What do you say to that individual?

 

How do you convince him that he should now fork over that legacy to those who grew up with silver spoons in their mouths compared to his own upbringing, and sacrifice what he already sacrificed to build to those whom are not willing to walk a path a tenth as long and hard as he himself has?

Hmmph, sounds not only like "white privilege" but someone else must have made that happen. 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, KayAdams said:

 

Ok, yes I will be happy to get any inside info I can and share it with everyone here. Just realize that I am merely a local volunteer with no actual power or access to campaign bigwigs. Any insight or opinions I share are either my own or secondhand scuttlebutt. Speaking of BUTT....no one in the Bernie campaign seems to have any fear of Pete BUTTigieg. But I guess that's not really earth-shattering insight, since anyone with a brain realizes that you can't win the Democratic nomination if you are polling 0.00% with African-Americans and any person of color really. The one I'm hearing who is most concerning is Amy K, so tonight is very important for her. If she finishes in a strong NH third, she could be a viable centrist for the party to rally around. Otherwise, her campaign will be running on financial fumes and will probably collapse before Super Tuesday. Warren is also still in play. She could still rebound, but she needs to do it tonight. Bernie's campaign strategy has been to stay away from slinging too much mud at the girls because of the PC woke culture within the Dem Party. Let them all murder each other, then show up later to pick up the scraps. It's the Katniss Everdeen strategy in the first Hunger Games movie, really, but again...this is more in the domain of common sense than amazing Deep Throat insight, so full apologies...

 

While I type with bravado and bluster for fun, I am also very much aware that Bernie's chances are still kind of low simply because there are so many variables at play during the primary season and because he is so very much despised among many within the Democrat Party, the mainstream media, and beyond. I mean...just read the responses in this thread to get a sense of what Bernie is facing between now and November! But I get the sense that everyone involved in the campaign knows this. Chris Matthews types aren't abstract holograms; they show up all the time during campaign activities. The playbook against Bernie is fully anticipated: he's too old, he doesn't get along with people, he has low opinions of women, and he's a socialist. These same 4 concerns will be repeated ad nauseam. The election season will be a long referendum on socialism. If Bernie can convince Americans of the need for a reasonable social safety net, then he wins. If not? Then we're headed to the dustbin of history alongside George McGovern.

 

I will say this, though, since I don't know how many Millenials y'all run into in your day-to-day life: people don't have the same aversion to the word "socialism" as the older crowd does. There is a VERY stark contrast between the Boomers and the Millenials on the campaign trial, with Gen X'ers somewhere in between. Many of us don't even have a single memory of a world in which the specter of the Soviet Union hung over the country. The "socialism" scare tactics are clearly not resonating with the Millenials; conversely, the more  accurate "social democracy" message is only getting minimal traction with Boomers. This election is really more about rallying your troops on election day than it is with public policy persuasion. I will say this with great conviction: the Bernie Bros and Bernie Hos are EXTREMELY motivated to get out and vote. Voter apathy is historically a trend for younger people, but this is a new era of political populism and all bets are off.

Well the millennialist better grow an aversion to Socialism or their kids will pay dearly and it will not be enjoyable to watch as parents.

[3rdnlng]

When world history and especially American History is either not taught in schools or perverted, then history can't be learned from. Our culture gets discounted and we don't build from a base, but are susceptible to any idea that sounds good. The lack of patriotism in our country is based on our ignorance of our past. 

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 hour ago, KayAdams said:

 

Ok, yes I will be happy to get any inside info I can and share it with everyone here. Just realize that I am merely a local volunteer with no actual power or access to campaign bigwigs. Any insight or opinions I share are either my own or secondhand scuttlebutt. Speaking of BUTT....no one in the Bernie campaign seems to have any fear of Pete BUTTigieg. But I guess that's not really earth-shattering insight, since anyone with a brain realizes that you can't win the Democratic nomination if you are polling 0.00% with African-Americans and any person of color really. The one I'm hearing who is most concerning is Amy K, so tonight is very important for her. If she finishes in a strong NH third, she could be a viable centrist for the party to rally around. Otherwise, her campaign will be running on financial fumes and will probably collapse before Super Tuesday. Warren is also still in play. She could still rebound, but she needs to do it tonight. Bernie's campaign strategy has been to stay away from slinging too much mud at the girls because of the PC woke culture within the Dem Party. Let them all murder each other, then show up later to pick up the scraps. It's the Katniss Everdeen strategy in the first Hunger Games movie, really, but again...this is more in the domain of common sense than amazing Deep Throat insight, so full apologies...

 

While I type with bravado and bluster for fun, I am also very much aware that Bernie's chances are still kind of low simply because there are so many variables at play during the primary season and because he is so very much despised among many within the Democrat Party, the mainstream media, and beyond. I mean...just read the responses in this thread to get a sense of what Bernie is facing between now and November! But I get the sense that everyone involved in the campaign knows this. Chris Matthews types aren't abstract holograms; they show up all the time during campaign activities. The playbook against Bernie is fully anticipated: he's too old, he doesn't get along with people, he has low opinions of women, and he's a socialist. These same 4 concerns will be repeated ad nauseam. The election season will be a long referendum on socialism. If Bernie can convince Americans of the need for a reasonable social safety net, then he wins. If not? Then we're headed to the dustbin of history alongside George McGovern.

 

I will say this, though, since I don't know how many Millenials y'all run into in your day-to-day life: people don't have the same aversion to the word "socialism" as the older crowd does. There is a VERY stark contrast between the Boomers and the Millenials on the campaign trial, with Gen X'ers somewhere in between. Many of us don't even have a single memory of a world in which the specter of the Soviet Union hung over the country. The "socialism" scare tactics are clearly not resonating with the Millenials; conversely, the more  accurate "social democracy" message is only getting minimal traction with Boomers. This election is really more about rallying your troops on election day than it is with public policy persuasion. I will say this with great conviction: the Bernie Bros and Bernie Hos are EXTREMELY motivated to get out and vote. Voter apathy is historically a trend for younger people, but this is a new era of political populism and all bets are off.

My son is a millennial. He is an over-educated 30-something (several undergraduate degrees, several masters). He owns his own house, and is in finance. Even four years ago he was not a Bernie voter. He is definitely not one now.

 

His girlfriend (who he owns the house with) is an ardent Trump supporter (she voted for him last time) who votes a straight R ticket.

 

We have had many conversations about idiots who do not pay their own way in college and expect other people to bail them out. The “idiots” is their word, not mine. 
 

They have a large group of friends. Only one of the crowd was a Bernie Bro last time. They would give the guy good natured grief for supporting Bernie. I am not certain if that friend is still onboard with Bernie or not.

 

I think you may be making the mistake of attributing too much energy to millennials and Bernie. They are not a homogeneous group.
 

 

[Nanker]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

I was reading on another site that campaign finance laws are such that if mini-Mike suspends his campaign (assuming he can’t buy the nomination) he can “loan” his staff to the nominee.

 

Now, I am not certain how that is much different monetarily than his directly donating to the campaign (he has money to burn), but if he assembles a competent staff (word is he is paying better than anyone else) and has access to a lot of dirt and accurate polling ...

 

Anyhooo... anyone have any thoughts or ideas how that could play out?

Ooooh! What's that smell? Why, I think there's another dossier in the works.

 

[/dev/null]

Audio from Fascist Frodo (aka Mini Mike) gonna play well in Soth Carolina and California

[3rdnlng]

[Deranged Rhino]

[3rdnlng]

4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Joe Biden pounces on reporter and states that Hillary Clinton is not up to the "mouse test". 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[ComradeKayAdams]

3 hours ago, KRC said:

 

I have no trouble with opposing viewpoints if it is backed up with sound logic and not just feelz. For example, how is Bernie going to pay for all of the free stuff he is promising? If you tax the top 1% at a 100% tax rate, you still do not pay for student loan forgiveness. That means you need to tax more people just to pay for that one program. Then you have the College for All program, New Green Deal, Medicare for All, Economic Bill of Rights, Housing for All, Eliminating Medical Debt, Expanding Social Security, as well as everything else he is promising. He wants to double union membership his first term. That is more out of people's pockets in union dues. I would also like to he how he gets around the court rulings that you cannot mandate that people join a union. Economically, I do not see it without massive wealth redistribution. He hints at it by attacking billionaires, but even with that, there is not enough to pay for everything.

 

Hi KRC,

 

This is the central question posed for the Bernie campaign. I gave a very basic reply on page 318, third post down, point #2 of this thread. I would expect the full official details to be revealed at some point in the coming months on Bernie’s webpage, probably as soon as the Dem nomination looks to be secured but no later than July. You will not get them during the Democrat debates or during most TV interviews. I suppose the cynics here are laughing in their laptops right now, thinking that it is either because Bernie secretly intends to soak the productive classes in the country or because he doesn’t have a realistic plan. But for context, realize that it is an extremely common campaign strategy to withhold policy details like this. Many candidates falter because they get caught up defending policy minutiae with opponents and somehow miss the policy forest for the trees. Trump himself understood this campaign concept in 2016 as much as anyone. He never provided the details of his trade policies; he focused on laying the framework philosophy that these NAFTA/TPP deals were unfair and needed to be rewritten. Similarly, Bernie is laying the framework philosophy during the Dem primary season that he differs from the others because of his insistence on the moral imperative to provide every American with health care coverage, regardless of employment status. Over the past few months, we’ve seen many of the other Dem candidates take big hits because of missteps on the singular issue of health care.

[reddogblitz]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

LOL.  I appreciate your candor.  The baby boomers millenial fight is always funny to me because we're the one's that raised them.  The 2008 crash, the diluted value of a four year degree, and the rise of home costs are some of the reasons millenials gravitate towards Bernie.  Basically, economic insecurity.  Also, young people in general are naturally more idealistic.  Calling for a revolution instead of gradual change is an easier sell.

 

BINGO.  In other words, they are like the boomers in the 60s/70s.  Make love not War.   Never trust anyone over 30.  Anything a Man can do a Woman can do better.   etc.

[Buffalo_Gal]

58 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

He’s all in on South Carolina (left NH early to head down there). He bombs in SC... he has got to be done.

[ComradeKayAdams]

3 hours ago, snafu said:

 

If millennials and Gen-Z’s think that Socialism means they will not need to work hard for what they want, then it is the Socialists who aren’t doing the proper messaging.  If it is the millennials and Gen-Z’s who think they’re the only ones that lived through a hard and deep recession, then they’ve got to look around to see that it’s happened before.  The Depression affected an entire generation+  of people. Socialist “safety net” programs helped, but it shouldn’t go any further than that. For example, alleviating student debt isn’t exactly progressive, is it?  What about people who didn’t go to college — do they just get a handout? Why choose student debt and no other debt? I believe that when Bernie has to explain how this all will work, he’s going to run into serious conceptual problems with voters.

 

 

100% in agreement with the bolded. Somewhere between Rothbard anarcho-capitalism and end-game Marxism, our country can hopefully find common ground? We need to provide a social safety net to give everyone a reasonable chance to participate in a capitalist market, regardless of the socioeconomic status of one’s parents or of one’s health circumstances throughout life. However, we also need to be careful about enabling freeloaders and acknowledge the critical role that the wealthy classes play in providing jobs.

 

Hats off to the aptly named Greatest Generation. However, let’s try to implement policies that avoid deep depressions and world wars, right? We can admire from afar the struggles of various humans from the past, but we don’t need to romanticize such human suffering to the point that we justify its existence as necessary character-building experiences.

 

My understanding of Bernie’s education policies are that they do include other post-secondary public education options like trade schools. At one point in our country’s history, free high school education for all was seen as an unnecessarily extravagant public policy. Now the fundamental rationale is that civilization as a whole – and the economy in particular – benefits a lot more when more people receive the proper education to reach their productive potential. Bernie’s plan is an extension of that idea to post-secondary opportunities, one which I will again remind everyone is somehow adopted in many other first-world countries. Education costs have far outpaced costs of living since the 1970’s to the point that many graduates are diverting all of their financial resources – even during the prime years of their career – solely toward food, shelter, and student loan companies and away from all of the other areas of the economy. This is not only a major limiting factor on the economy’s true potential, but a potential ticking time bomb that keeps many economists up at night.

[Koko78]

6 hours ago, KayAdams said:

I would be more than happy to do so this weekend and beyond, but honest question first: what will be the appetite for it here? Two main problems I foresee:

 

The thing people don't get about this place is that if you want to have a rational discussion, you can easily have one (as you are seeing by the replies to your posts.) If you want to post about facts and statistics/numbers or take a facially odd position, be prepared to back them up when challenged - and this applies to people on both the left and right. Do the long division.

 

Far too many people come down here, whine about their 'feelz', then refuse to provide facts to back up their argument or even coherently respond to questions to flesh out what they're saying. They then get offended when they're called idiots, resoundingly mocked, then ultimately dismissed out of hand for their stupidity.

 

This isn't as monolithic an echo chamber for the right as you might suspect (most here tend toward libertarianism.) Back your ***** up, and you'll get respect - even from those who disagree with you.

[ComradeKayAdams]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

My son is a millennial. He is an over-educated 30-something (several undergraduate degrees, several masters). He owns his own house, and is in finance. Even four years ago he was not a Bernie voter. He is definitely not one now.

 

His girlfriend (who he owns the house with) is an ardent Trump supporter (she voted for him last time) who votes a straight R ticket.

 

We have had many conversations about idiots who do not pay their own way in college and expect other people to bail them out. The “idiots” is their word, not mine. 
 

They have a large group of friends. Only one of the crowd was a Bernie Bro last time. They would give the guy good natured grief for supporting Bernie. I am not certain if that friend is still onboard with Bernie or not.

 

I think you may be making the mistake of attributing too much energy to millennials and Bernie. They are not a homogeneous group.
 

 

 

No, they’re certainly not. And I’m glad your son and friends are navigating life successfully. But understand that public policy is molded by sociological data and not anecdotal evidence. I have anecdotal evidence of people whose lives got massively derailed by health issues. Or of people paying a heavy socioeconomic price for parents who made poor decisions. The data and the polls show that Bernie Sanders is very popular with Millenials overall. If you break down the “Millenials” category by gender, race, class, geography, and so forth to glean more info, then maybe you find a different narrative? I honestly don’t know the answer to that one. All I know is the singular poll numbers for Millenials is really good now for Bernie and has been good for him since 2015.

[3rdnlng]

36 minutes ago, KayAdams said:

 

Hi KRC,

 

This is the central question posed for the Bernie campaign. I gave a very basic reply on page 318, third post down, point #2 of this thread. I would expect the full official details to be revealed at some point in the coming months on Bernie’s webpage, probably as soon as the Dem nomination looks to be secured but no later than July. You will not get them during the Democrat debates or during most TV interviews. I suppose the cynics here are laughing in their laptops right now, thinking that it is either because Bernie secretly intends to soak the productive classes in the country or because he doesn’t have a realistic plan. But for context, realize that it is an extremely common campaign strategy to withhold policy details like this. Many candidates falter because they get caught up defending policy minutiae with opponents and somehow miss the policy forest for the trees. Trump himself understood this campaign concept in 2016 as much as anyone. He never provided the details of his trade policies; he focused on laying the framework philosophy that these NAFTA/TPP deals were unfair and needed to be rewritten. Similarly, Bernie is laying the framework philosophy during the Dem primary season that he differs from the others because of his insistence on the moral imperative to provide every American with health care coverage, regardless of employment status. Over the past few months, we’ve seen many of the other Dem candidates take big hits because of missteps on the singular issue of health care.

The fact still remains that Bernie, if he is honest, won't be able to tell people how he is going to get $5 out of $1.