Anyone ever consider bringing in Doug Whaley JUST to scout pro personnel?

[jethro_tull]

9 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...maybe we could wake Buddy up and bring 'em outta retirement/hibernation?..................

coma

[vorpma]

59 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You find a GM, and you can take the entire league, that got the bang for the buck on the pro side that he did. I promise that you don’t want to go down that road because he was masterful in that area. I didn’t even mention Kiko for Shady. He is, and has been, a wizard on the pro personnel side.

What are you seeing that no else is, including the remainder of the NFL franchises - HE DID NOT WIN!!!!

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, vorpma said:

What are you seeing that no else is, including the remainder of the NFL franchises - HE DID NOT WIN!!!!

Part of that is coaching though, right?  Even though I blame Whaley for Rex, Rex was really really bad.

 

Beane would look worse if McD couldn't coach. There's an alternate universe where the 2017 and 2018 Bills have 1 win in two years because a lot of the team is bad.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The book hasn’t been written on Beane but the first few chapters aren’t very good.

 

Utter. Ridiculousness.

 

Tremaine Edmunds

Tre White

Matt Milano

Taron Johnson

Harrison Phillips

Dion Dawkins

 

And on the pro side:

 

Trent Murphy (who's gotten MUCH better since week 1)

Micah Hyde

Jordan Poyer

Jordan Phillips

 

If that's not very good, sign me up for not very good.

 

[Bill_with_it]

3 minutes ago, Rad Likes The Bills said:

Lol are you seriously saying Percy Harvin at 1 year 4 mill wasn’t worth the investment at the time? Not like we had him on a huge contract and he flipped Cassell for a 7th when it was clear he wasn’t the starter.. idk why those would be held against him 

It was six million then we gave him another mil for  the next year. That felton deal too 7.5 mil one year. He wasnt a good gm. He found a few decent players. Thats it. Shady fell in his lap. Noone wanted to touch incognito after the bullying. Tyrod and alexander were the only guys that he worked at getting, and rex ryan stated he pounded the table for him. Lets not rewrite history. Their is a reason why he isnt a gm and it isnt because he doesnt want to be one its because he isnt capable of being a good gm.

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, joesixpack said:

 

Utter. Ridiculousness.

 

Tremaine Edmunds

Tre White

Matt Milano

Taron Johnson

Harrison Phillips

Dion Dawkins

 

And on the pro side:

 

Trent Murphy (who's gotten MUCH better since week 1)

Micah Hyde

Jordan Poyer

Jordan Phillips

 

If that's not very good, sign me up for not very good.

 

Beane wasn't here for the bolded.  But you've never let being wrong stop you from posting before.

[vorpma]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Part of that is coaching though, right?  Even though I blame Whaley for Rex, Rex was really really bad.

 

Beane would look worse if McD couldn't coach. There's an alternate universe where the 2017 and 2018 Bills have 1 win in two years because a lot of the team is bad.

Not a clue regarding the point you are trying to make! Here is the real universe, the Bill did not win and were not close to fielding a playoff contender - if DW won he would still be here - one more time HE DID NOT WIN!

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, vorpma said:

What are you seeing that no else is, including the remainder of the NFL franchises - HE DID NOT WIN!!!!

It’s a simple question. Did he succeed when it comes to pro personnel? That’s ALL that we are talking about. The answer is unequivocally a yes. He did not succeed in cap management, finding a QB and was just okay in the draft. We can be so dumb that we can’t separate those things. The question was “would he be a good pro personnel director?” Based on his resume the answer is absolutely. The reality though is that it will never happen here and that’s fine.

[vorpma]

Only on this board do we have wack jobs that want conflict and drama after a win!

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, vorpma said:

Not a clue regarding the point you are trying to make! Here is the real universe, the Bill did not win and were not close to fielding a playoff contender - if DW won he would still be here - one more time HE DID NOT WIN!

Articulate the point I was making back to me. I think you missed it.

[vorpma]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s a simple question. Did he succeed when it comes to pro personnel? That’s ALL that we are talking about. The answer is unequivocally a yes. He did not succeed in cap management, finding a QB and was just okay in the draft. We can be so dumb that we can’t separate those things. The question was “would he be a good pro personnel director?” Based on his resume the answer is absolutely. The reality though is that it will never happen here and that’s fine.

Who cares. lame argument, he did not win and he has not and won't be hired by an NFL team again; WHY? This ridiculous!

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I think we can all admit dumpster diving was a bright spot in the Whaley era.  The issue is for me, is that those good couple of FA pickups are what saves Whaley from being a terrible GM and instead just mediocre to bad.

That’s all that I am saying. He excelled with adding pro talent and pro talent that was overlooked. That’s much harder to do than to acquire Khalil Mack. If you add a star and he’s a star I’m not impressed. If you add guy like Zach Brown and Lorenzo Alexander and they flourish I am impressed. FWIW, his staff was really strong on that end as well. It wasn’t just him but there is no denying that they succeeded there.

[vorpma]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Articulate the point I was making back to me. I think you missed it.

No, I don't think so and thing has run its course; get back to me sometime in the future!

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, vorpma said:

Who cares. lame argument, he did not win and he has not and won't be hired by an NFL team again; WHY? This ridiculous!

Why are you posting in a thread about “Whaley as a pro personnel executive” if you don’t want to discuss the merits of Whaley as a pro personnel executive? That’s the topic....

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s all that I am saying. He excelled with adding pro talent and pro talent that was overlooked. That’s much harder to do than to acquire Khalil Mack. If you add a star and he’s a star I’m not impressed. If you add guy like Zach Brown and Lorenzo Alexander and they flourish I am impressed. FWIW, his staff was really strong on that end as well. It wasn’t just him but there is no denying that they succeeded there.

Agree and disagree.  I think you judge each move based on the decision making process behind it.

 

LorAx and Zach Brown.  No doubt HUGE hits.  Whaley and co found diamonds in the rough.

 

Richie.  Another big hit.  But he was a proven Pro Bowl OG sitting on his couch because of a strange controversy that no one would touch.  I would have signed him in a heartbeat as well without the same pedigree. 

 

I think that's my difference when it comes to talent evaluation.  I don't give credit for no-brainers.  I don't think the GM who selects a Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck are good for doing so.  

 

Drafting a player who turns into Khalil Mack from a small football program is more impressive than trading for 2 time 2 position All-Pro Khalil Mack.

3 minutes ago, vorpma said:

No, I don't think so and thing has run its course; get back to me sometime in the future!

 

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Why are you posting in a thread about “Whaley as a pro personnel executive” if you don’t want to discuss the merits of Whaley as a pro personnel executive? That’s the topic....

I'm not sure he's reading the posts he's replying to.  A TBD shooting star in the making.

[Rico]

25 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Man i remember those awesome percy harvin and matt cassell signings those were fantastic, couple that with that marcell extension and all the sweet draftings well then what have you got? A guy that will never be a gm again.

Don't forget he also blessed us with:

Doug Legursky
Bryce Brown
Keith Rivers
Chris Williams
Charles Clay
Jerome Felton
Corey White

and Reggie Bush 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, Rico said:

Don't forget he also blessed us with:

Doug Legursky
Bryce Brown
Keith Rivers
Chris Williams
Charles Clay
Jerome Felton
Corey White

and Reggie Bush 

 

/thread

 

hell,

 

/internet

 

[Rico]

28 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/12/how_did_buffalo_bills_land_micah_hyde_in_free_agency_ask_the_green_bay_packers.html

 

But while McDermott was the defensive coordinator for the Carolina Panthers, he had spent plenty of time "T.V. scouting" Hyde whenever he had a chance. He saw a player who could play all over the field, and the two have a mutual friend, so he knew the type of person and leader Hyde could be. So when his first free agency with the Bills rolled around, McDermott put on the tape to see if it would match up with what he'd seen on television. 

"The weird part about it is when I TV scouted him I couldn't get a real feel for what he was until you turn the tape on and see, 'Could he be a full time safety for us?'" McDermott said. 

McDermott and the Bills signed Hyde to a five-year, $32.5 million contract with $14 million in guarantees on the first day of free agency.

https://buffalonews.com/2017/09/22/inside-bills-jordan-poyer-got-buffalo-came/

As it turns out, those who know Poyer best swear this exact moment was destined to arrive.

“Yes! Absolutely,” Bills assistant defensive backs coach Bobby Babich says when asked whether he thought Poyer would be this good, this fast with a new team. “People don’t understand the amount of work that Jordan Poyer puts in and the time he spends. He’s absolutely relentless.”

Babich is the main reason Poyer is in Buffalo. Having spent two-plus years with him in Cleveland, he saw firsthand a star in the making. Poyer just needed the right opportunity, Babich believed, and he would take the NFL by storm.

That’s why, with the Bills needing help at safety as free agency approached this past March, Babich campaigned hard for Poyer.

“I brought his name up to all the people who are above me and said, ‘hey, this is a guy we need to take a look at,’ ” Babich said. “Everybody that was involved in the decision looked at the tape that he did have, listened to my input, and we ended up with Jordan.”

Even as a 34-year-old assistant DBs coach, Babich said there was “zero hesitation” on his part to push so hard for his bosses to sign Poyer.

“Jordan Poyer is a person and a player that I have no issue sticking my neck out on the line for,” he said. “I believe that he fit exactly what we want as far as looking for players with our DNA.”

Coach Sean McDermott and defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier agreed, wasting little time in securing Poyer’s services. The team signed him to a four-year contract worth up to $13 million. At the time, it looked like big money for a player who had made just 10 career starts and was coming back from a devastating injury. Today, it looks like highway robbery.

“I think he’s a complete player in terms of what he’s done,” McDermott said. “We had some inside knowledge of what Jordan brings to the table, or brought to the table back then, and now what we’re seeing him bring to the table for this football team. …  Two games in, I couldn’t say more about the way he’s played.”

“Boy, it was a great decision,” added Frazier. “He’s really stepped up like we were all hoping that he would.”

[BringBackOrton]

7 minutes ago, Rico said:

Don't forget he also blessed us with:

Doug Legursky
Bryce Brown
Keith Rivers
Chris Williams
Charles Clay
Jerome Felton
Corey White

and Reggie Bush 

Did you forget my man Boobie D?  And Boom Herron?

[Rico]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Did you forget my man Boobie D?  And Boom Herron?

I wanted to give him credit for Colin Brown, but he was already here. Whaley just trusted him to take over for Andy Levitre.

[blacklabel]

On 10/6/2018 at 5:49 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

Are we sure that Beane is a better GM than Whaley? He certainly isn’t as good on the pro side. Beane gets a lot of credit for “fixing the cap” but it’s easy to tear it down. Building it back is the tricky part. We have no idea what that will look like. I have liked the way that Beane has navigated the draft. 

 

Due to the cap situation and the stage they're at in this rebuild, it's easy to say Beane hasn't done much for the pro side. They've signed players to reasonable, manageable deals that seem to be both teams and player friendly. McDermott brought in Hyde and Poster and Beane added Lotulelei, Murphy and Ivory this year. 

 

And as you pointed out, his draft (he's really only responsible for this season so far) was pretty good. Combine his picks with McDermott last year and it looks like this. 

 

2017

Tre' White - shaping up to be a home run of a pick. Kid is already very good and seems to be skyrocketing his way to great. 

 

Zay Jones - Jury is still out. The three year rule applies to receivers especially. The college game has become a detriment to WRs and OL especially. WRs are used to pass-happy offenses with lots of small routes that don't fly in the NFL and OL prospects hardly play with their hand in the dirt. Zay is gonna stick around for a bit despite his numbers. They like his work ethic and invested a high pick on him. They'll give him every chance to succeed. 

 

Dion Dawkins - Unseated a 6-year starter in his rookie year and has looked pretty good. 

 

Matt Milano - Looks more and more like a steal every week. Always around the ball. 

 

Nate Peterman - Yikes on bikes. 

 

Tanner Vallejo - 6th round picks get cut all the time. 

 

2018

Josh Allen - too early to tell but plenty to work with. 

 

Tremaine Edmunds - the more experience he gets the better he'll be. Can run all over the field, makes throwing over the middle tough due to his length and range.

 

Harrison Phillips - probably gets more playing time as the season goes on and has flashed at times. Has a chance to be solid. 

 

Taron Johnson - seems to be the Matt Milano of this season. Sure tackler, great instincts and awareness, good recovery speed, smart. 

 

Siran Neal - work in progress. 

 

Wyatt Teller - see Neal.

 

Ray-Ray McCloud - developing, at best I think he can carve out a role as a returner/gadget player, maybe deep threat.

 

Austin Proehl - was like, less than 5 picks from being Mr. Irrelevant, didn't work out.

 

Overall, they've drafted 14 players.  Seven of them are already starting. Several of them have a chance to be special players. Hitting on 8 of 14 of your draft picks like that? I'd say that's a job well done so far. 

 

Interested to see what they do this off-season now that they have some money to throw around. I also expect them to wheel and deal and acquire more picks and maybe flip some picks for players down the line. Should be fun. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by blacklabel

[cba fan]

20 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Even the head of a team’s scouting department is still not pulling in millions in annual salary; why would this category be any different? Scouting of any kind is not in GM $$ territory. https://nationalfootballpost.com/are-nfl-scouting-departments-underfunded/ https://www.sapling.com/7746693/average-salary-nfl-scout

 

Very true and I was a little off.

 

Total value though over life of a NFL FO contract though would be significantly more money then Whaley makes now doing that Senior Bowl gig.

[ProcessAccepted]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You find a GM, and you can take the entire league, that got the bang for the buck on the pro side that he did. I promise that you don’t want to go down that road because he was masterful in that area. I didn’t even mention Kiko for Shady. He is, and has been, a wizard on the pro personnel side.

 

His roll in the Kiko trade was just to answer the phone. Chip Kelly wanted his Kiko back and wanted to get rid of Shady. 

 

Clearly we have different opinions on the man. I see him as average but there seemed to be internal friction issues around him and Marrone that seemed to hold the team back. 

[Nihilarian]

6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Sure:

Zach Brown (minimal salary - Pro Bowl) 

Mike Gillislee (5.7 YPC tops in the league & 8 TDS)

Poyer

Hyde

Hughes for Kelvin Sheppard

 

Does that work for you?

While it's true Whaley had an eye for some defensive talent. 

 

It was that Idiot Indy GM Grigson who initiated that trade with Buffalo for Hughes as he wanted that last #1 pick of Bill Polian gone from the team. I have friends that are Colts fans and they are still bitching about Grigson who made the phone call to Buffalo. 

 

It was also Chip Kelly who called Buffalo to move LeSean McCoy out of Philly to Buffalo and Whaley obliged. 

 

To his credit Whaley did have a hand in helping build a better Buffalo Bills roster in certain areas.