Why Do the Bills Need a New Stadium ??

[stony]

3 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Different than what the Bills are already doing or open to doing?  No, it is not.  My point is many people from Buffalo and Erie County do not like the outside influx even though it has kept the team in Buffalo for the last 25 years in reality.  This attitude was extremely apparent on the old BBMB.  

Well, Bills fans were never thought of as the smartest bunch ?

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

The Ralph is 2:25 minutes from my house, downtown is going to push it 3 or so. Also Corning Inc is one of the fortune 500 companies that supports the Bills

  And this is going to be the rub for the Buffalo natives and out-of-towners.  The assumption by the locals is that everybody is going to want to drink for many hours before and after and what is no better than a walk through bar/ club district.  The out-of-towners may very well have a different idea of what their visit to a game will be like including easy access to I-90.  They may very well want to make a three day weekend that includes destinations such as Letchworth, Niagara Falls, Strong Museum, Finger Lakes and Chautaugua grape countries to name a few.  Me thinks the big money of the out-of-town luxury box holder gets the nod in terms of location and design.

7 minutes ago, jimmy10 said:

 

Great point about Corning. And yeah, further evidence that a downtown location doesn’t shorten anyone’s drive except our friends in Canuckistan. 

 

But the drive isn’t a big deal to me anyway. My wife and I enjoy it, it’s time to ourselves while the little ones are with grandparents. 

 

Like many, I don’t feel the Bills NEED a new stadium, but I’ve pretty much accepted the inevitability that it will happen. My only hope is that the Pegulas appreciate their market enough to not jack up the prices TOO much. 

 

Yeah, it’s come up on here before too. There are even some who don’t feel Rochester is part of WNY, which is hilarious to me. We used to be the same area code for cryin out loud. 

  I think one of the newer definitions of WNY by the gov't has WNY extending all the way down to Cayuga Lake in the Finger Lakes.  716'rs please bond with your 585, 315, and 607 brothers.

[Mike in Horseheads]

16 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  And this is going to be the rub for the Buffalo natives and out-of-towners.  The assumption by the locals is that everybody is going to want to drink for many hours before and after and what is no better than a walk through bar/ club district.  The out-of-towners may very well have a different idea of what their visit to a game will be like including easy access to I-90.  They may very well want to make a three day weekend that includes destinations such as Letchworth, Niagara Falls, Strong Museum, Finger Lakes and Chautaugua grape countries to name a few.  Me thinks the big money of the out-of-town luxury box holder gets the nod in terms of location and design.

  I think one of the newer definitions of WNY by the gov't has WNY extending all the way down to Cayuga Lake in the Finger Lakes.  716'rs please bond with your 585, 315, and 607 brothers.

The state agency that oversees the ID/DD agency I work for considers Western Region 1 as far as Chemung, Schuyler and Seneca counties.

[RochesterRob]

26 minutes ago, jimmy10 said:

 

Thing is, a downtown location doesn’t mean any quicker of a drive from ROC and points east along the thruway. Google Maps tells me an hour and 15 to Key Bank Center from my house, and an hour and 19 to OBD. 

 

It’d mean a shorter trip from southern Ontario and that’s about it. 

  I am not a big fan of driving apps but unless you know the area and the traffic then you may not have much choice unless you have time to spare.  A lot of times  I get off I-90 at Pembroke and then pick up 20 going west.  Seems to be less of a bottle neck versus getting off at Lockport or going all the way to exit 56.  Now my wife hates side roads and would sit an hour plus off of exit 56 waiting to go the last several miles to New Era.

[Mike in Horseheads]

6 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I am not a big fan of driving apps but unless you know the area and the traffic then you may not have much choice unless you have time to spare.  A lot of times  I get off I-90 at Pembroke and then pick up 20 going west.  Seems to be less of a bottle neck versus getting off at Lockport or going all the way to exit 56.  Now my wife hates side roads and would sit an hour plus off of exit 56 waiting to go the last several miles to New Era.

when in Pembrooke be sure to stop at the Pilot, my nephew is manager

[Chandler#81]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

That is a myth... the boat builders Harland and Wolff never advertised the ship as unsinkable 

 

those were propaganda pieces by newspapers of the day

As is your ‘Never leaving.Never’ bs. 

Goodell made it clear to the Pegula’s -per the other owners behest- at the time of the sale. 

 

So, to the REAL ISSUE at hand, Downtown Dome or Open Air?

[jimmy10]

19 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I am not a big fan of driving apps but unless you know the area and the traffic then you may not have much choice unless you have time to spare.  A lot of times  I get off I-90 at Pembroke and then pick up 20 going west.  Seems to be less of a bottle neck versus getting off at Lockport or going all the way to exit 56.  Now my wife hates side roads and would sit an hour plus off of exit 56 waiting to go the last several miles to New Era.

 

Oh, yeah, I love taking back roads home,

especially early in the season when we still have daylight. We park on Big Tree, so we’ll just take 20A through Orchard Park, East Aurora and continue on as far as we like and enjoy that pretty drive, especially when the leaves are changing. 

 

[Boatdrinks]

54 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...a damn good point......and I'd bet folks from those areas make the trek to camp in Rochester.....as well as east east of Rochester.......so for starters, cancel the Rochester camp and alienate what, 25-30% of your fan base?.....now build a new stadium with increased PSL's and ticket prices.......so what happens?.....that same fan base has to economize...maybe the family budget reduces from two games to one.....maybe the camp cancellation reduces game attendance to NONE......a new stadium with increased PSL's and ticket prices is a major consideration so I don;t see where alienating a significant percentage of your fan base is nothing short of economic suicide.....just my ramble....

It’s not so much about the current base of ticket buyers. That market is tapped out, and yes some current fans will be priced out. However, there will be a currently untapped market to take their place. At a higher price. A new stadium and its climate controlled environs will provide pricing power. 

1 minute ago, Chandler#81 said:

As is your ‘Never leaving.Never’ bs. 

Goodell made it clear to the Pegula’s -per the other owners behest- at the time of the sale. 

 

So, to the REAL ISSUE at hand, Downtown Dome or Open Air?

Much greater pricing power in a covered stadium, imo. 

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, jimmy10 said:

 

Oh, yeah, I love taking back roads home,

especially early in the season when we still have daylight. We park on Big Tree, so we’ll just take 20A through Orchard Park, East Aurora and continue on as far as we like and enjoy that pretty drive, especially when the leaves are changing. 

 

  Been thinking about 77 and 20A but I should do a test run when I have business over that way to see how it works.  The wife has been going less lately so I meet up with the nephew in Rochester or BIL in Batavia and then they drive.  Their vehicle their rules.  Makes a big difference if going to a private lot versus the stadium lot.

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

As is your ‘Never leaving.Never’ bs. 

Goodell made it clear to the Pegula’s -per the other owners behest- at the time of the sale. 

 

So, to the REAL ISSUE at hand, Downtown Dome or Open Air?

 

Goodell can say anything he wants. It means squat...

 

everybody knows the Bills will get a new stadium eventually... eventually...

 

its not happening in 2-3 years... more likely closer to 10 years

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

It’s not so much about the current base of ticket buyers. That market is tapped out, and yes some current fans will be priced out. However, there will be a currently untapped market to take their place. At a higher price. A new stadium and its climate controlled environs will provide pricing power. 

 

...so my next question is where and whom is in that "untapped market" from your perspective?......I'm going to give you some actual corporate support numbers to consider....out corporate 20 person suite is $75,000 per year......eight trips from Roch-Cha-Cha via limo bus costs $8,800.....on board refreshments and tailgaiting is $4,000.....we pay $500 for parking annually....in suite food and beverage runs $1,500 per game or 12 grand annually  (case of beer or an order of wings are $125 each)....if my math is correct, that is $99,800 annually....so if the suite price goes up 1/3 or 25 grand, and food/beverage goes up 20%, I'm up to $127,200 a year.....we're out and many we know would be out...so now what??.....

Edited August 4, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Hammered a Lot]

On 8/3/2018 at 1:16 PM, mississaubills said:

 

Actually, an amphitheater for summer concerts is not a bad investment, especially in comparison to a football stadium.  Keybank can host arena shows, but Toronto has had success with its Budweiser Stage and Scotiabank Arena (all the name changes in Buffalo has warped me so I have no problem calling them by their current names) hosting most of the concerts in the area.  I think it's a wonderful idea!

 

Ultimately, OP may be the cheapest in terms of land and development to build a new stadium.  You can always build one next to the current site, a la Great American Ballpark vs the old Red/Bengals stadium.  

Artpsrk

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so my next question is where and whom is in that "untapped market" from your perspective?......I'm going to give you some actual corporate support numbers to consider....out corporate 20 person suite is $75,000 per year......eight trips from Roch-Cha-Cha via limo bus costs $8,800.....on board refreshments and tailgaiting is $4,000.....we pay $500 for parking annually....in suite food and beverage runs $1,500 per game or 12 grand annually  (case of beer or an order of wings are $125 each)....if my math is correct, that is $99,800 annually....so if the suite price goes up 1/3 or 25 grand, and food/beverage goes up 20%, I'm up to $127,200 a year.....we're out and many we know would be out...so now what??.....

I'll answer that question.  A bunch of 40-60 year old guys and families that don't go to games anymore but used to..who make a good salary in the area.  I'm not saying multi-millionaires, but I know a handful of people (including a couple relataives) that make over $100k that used to go to games but haven't gone in years. Give them a new stadium..a Dome...some trendy bar/restaurants to hang around in....and LESS of a perception (whether real or not) of out-of-control drunken-ness...and I guarantee you those will the people who will be willing to pay double, triple or more for tickets, replacing some of the current base of buyers.  Personally, I will not buy season tickets again, but I would pay $200 or more for tickets a couple times a year to give me a new and different experience than what the current stadium gives.

[RochesterRob]

44 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so my next question is where and whom is in that "untapped market" from your perspective?......I'm going to give you some actual corporate support numbers to consider....out corporate 20 person suite is $75,000 per year......eight trips from Roch-Cha-Cha via limo bus costs $8,800.....on board refreshments and tailgaiting is $4,000.....we pay $500 for parking annually....in suite food and beverage runs $1,500 per game or 12 grand annually  (case of beer or an order of wings are $125 each)....if my math is correct, that is $99,800 annually....so if the suite price goes up 1/3 or 25 grand, and food/beverage goes up 20%, I'm up to $127,200 a year.....we're out and many we know would be out...so now what??.....

  I can't speak for anybody else but there would be a variety of accommodations designed to meet various price points in a new facility.  The Pegula's have to be doing a bunch of research to see what is out there versus taking blind shots or build it and they will come approach.  Guys like me struggle to buy basic seats so I don't doubt I will be priced out but at least there will be a team with a regional identity I can bond with.  I can only hope with the black out rule fading away that it will get worked out to build the facility on the large side to maybe 68 or 70 thousand seats so I could have a chance at a game.

31 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'll answer that question.  A bunch of 40-60 year old guys and families that don't go to games anymore but used to..who make a good salary in the area.  I'm not saying multi-millionaires, but I know a handful of people (including a couple relataives) that make over $100k that used to go to games but haven't gone in years. Give them a new stadium..a Dome...some trendy bar/restaurants to hang around in....and LESS of a perception (whether real or not) of out-of-control drunken-ness...and I guarantee you those will the people who will be willing to pay double, triple or more for tickets, replacing some of the current base of buyers.  Personally, I will not buy season tickets again, but I would pay $200 or more for tickets a couple times a year to give me a new and different experience than what the current stadium gives.

  As alluded to in my last post I typically don't have a lot to spend on a game so I hope some cheap seats remain in a new stadium.  I gave public drunkenness up  decades ago at the conclusion of college so all I care about is good food and talking with my in-laws.  All right, in warm weather I don't turn my eye away from an attractive scantily clad female.

Edited August 4, 2018 by RochesterRob

[RochesterRob]

16 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'll answer that question.  A bunch of 40-60 year old guys and families that don't go to games anymore but used to..who make a good salary in the area.  I'm not saying multi-millionaires, but I know a handful of people (including a couple relataives) that make over $100k that used to go to games but haven't gone in years. Give them a new stadium..a Dome...some trendy bar/restaurants to hang around in....and LESS of a perception (whether real or not) of out-of-control drunken-ness...and I guarantee you those will the people who will be willing to pay double, triple or more for tickets, replacing some of the current base of buyers.  Personally, I will not buy season tickets again, but I would pay $200 or more for tickets a couple times a year to give me a new and different experience than what the current stadium gives.

  I was not going to say anything but it is my feeling that higher priced bars bring in wealthier jackasses who are still looking for trouble.  Further, the well-to-do 40-60 year olds I know bring kids and grandkids so a drinking venue is not on their places to go list.  So a bar district is not the end-all many make it out to be.  

[KingRex]

I think there are a couple of things folks might benefit from adding to their thinking in order to better answer some basic questions.

 

1. The actual decision here is not based on NEED it is based on WANT.  The Pegulas and the NFL are so far beyond needing to satisfy their needs, the key is what do the Pegulas and folks who are important to them WANT.

 

Who knows for sure among us mere fans, but my GUESS is that a primary want on their part is likely to want to further develop their own little Pegulastan near their hockey complex near Canalside.

 

Even better for them,  though $ is not a killer issue for them and their fracking wealth, they would be fools to turn down other people's $.

 

Among the folks important to them are their peers in the NFL hierarchy who appear to WANT new stuff and growing their entity so bad they are willing to at least absorb a lot of the substantial upfront costs in building a stadium through favorable loans or eve subsidize their fellow owners to build new stadia.

 

Even better local politicians may be willing to use tools like WNY Sports Authority to use public money in the form of a sports authority to build a shiny new stadium which in essence would be managed by and owned by the Bills.

 

Studies indicate there are far better investments in terms of ROI than a new stadium, but elected officials will find it hard not to simply give public $ to the Pegula's for this shiny thing.

 

Logical arguments about ROI or the current experiences like tailgating fun are way secondary to the owners WANTs

 

2.  $ are the ultimate driver for the NFL, but the actual fan attendance experience is the source of a nice $ but is way, lots , and tons smaller than the real source of $ in the modern NFL which is the TV networks.  Fans are important, but really only as part of the TV production which attracts eyeballs which brings the NFL billions of $ rather than the "mere" millions that ticket sales, beer sales and hot dogs fans produce on game day.

 

Given the choice between an Orchard Park stadium that seats 75,000 and a new canalside complex that seats 50,000 the NFL easily makes more money from the concentrated ravenous fan base and waiting list of the created scarcity of a downtown stadium the Pegulas and the NFL hierarchy..

 

It simply ain't Ralph Wilson's NFL anymore it is Pete Rozelle's Paul Tagliabue's and a bunch of NY lawyers (and to some extent Gene Upshaw's N FL.

 

The change is in part why Ralph was one of two owners who voted against the Tagliabue deal.

 

 

 

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

53 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...so my next question is where and whom is in that "untapped market" from your perspective?......I'm going to give you some actual corporate support numbers to consider....out corporate 20 person suite is $75,000 per year......eight trips from Roch-Cha-Cha via limo bus costs $8,800.....on board refreshments and tailgaiting is $4,000.....we pay $500 for parking annually....in suite food and beverage runs $1,500 per game or 12 grand annually  (case of beer or an order of wings are $125 each)....if my math is correct, that is $99,800 annually....so if the suite price goes up 1/3 or 25 grand, and food/beverage goes up 20%, I'm up to $127,200 a year.....we're out and many we know would be out...so now what??.....

As I’ve specified in earlier post within this thread, the corporate dollars are the real limiting factor here. Just not the Fortune 500 base that exists in other cities. There is room to increase corporate suite costs in an improved stadium with better amenities, but only within a certain range. However, the other types of seating ( including non corporate premium seating) is vastly underpriced at the moment. A new stadium changes that. The untapped market is the affluent fan who sits home on Sundays , save maybe a game or two early in the season when the weather is reliable. They don’t like the rowdy behavior or many fans or the spartan stadium lacking in creature comforts. They’d be willing to pay a good buck for a more upscale experience ( more akin to the hockey games they attend) but the current facility and clientele keeps them away. They are out there in droves, and the Bills organization knows this. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

As I’ve specified in earlier post within this thread, the corporate dollars are the real limiting factor here. Just not the Fortune 500 base that exists in other cities. There is room to increase corporate suite costs in an improved stadium with better amenities, but only within a certain range. However, the other types of seating ( including non corporate premium seating) is vastly underpriced at the moment. A new stadium changes that. The untapped market is the affluent fan who sits home on Sundays , save maybe a game or two early in the season when the weather is reliable. They don’t like the rowdy behavior or many fans or the spartan stadium lacking in creature comforts. They’d be willing to pay a good buck for a more upscale experience ( more akin to the hockey games they attend) but the current facility and clientele keeps them away. They are out there in droves, and the Bills organization knows this. 

 

..we have suites for both...start raising prices significantly and we are probably out of one if not both.....not sure what else I can say from a real world experience bud....

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

..we have suites for both...start raising prices significantly and we are probably out of one if not both.....not sure what else I can say from a real world experience bud....

Check the resale prices on Bills tickets via the secondary market ticket sites. People are paying higher prices already, an dthe Bills are getting none of that money. A new stadium with reduced capacity ( 60,000 or so) greater amenities and climate control will bring the best seats up to a real world current market NFL level. Your experience is your own, it means nothing toward the market as a whole. A new pricing structure with reduced capacity will increase revenues. People will buy the tickets if the gameday experience justifies it. Simple as that. 

[RochesterRob]

9 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

..we have suites for both...start raising prices significantly and we are probably out of one if not both.....not sure what else I can say from a real world experience bud....

  I don't know what Boatdrinks has in mind but I doubt suites will be done in a one size fits all manner.  Kraft and Jones can dictate to the market but Pegula will need to solicit ideas based on who is out there and what they may be willing to pay.  I would not be surprised if there are upwards of 6 choices for boxes in a new facility.