Why Is Our Government Putting People In Cages?

[DC Tom]

6 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

While the law may state that you can separate children form their parents, This “zero tolerance” policy is new and was enacted by the trump administration. 

 

As far as I understand it, they are not absolutely required by law to separate children from their families. That is something they decided to do. It is a deterrent policy, and they have said so themselves. 

 

Oversimplified, and incomplete. 

1) the "zero tolerance" policy is in reality a policy of ceasing to rely on the "honor system" for illegal immigrants to show up for their hearings.  Historically, a large number of border crossers have been release on their own recognizance after apprehension at the border, with them promising to show up for their hearings.  Needless to say, this sort of "pinky swear" due process doesn't historically work too well.

2) As illegal immigrants are now detained until their hearings as a matter of due process, the Flores Agreement from some 20 years ago requires children be released from detention "without unnecessary delay" to the "least restrictive" environment available.  Children effectively can't be detained if there's other options, which include "licensed programs willing to accept custody."  That last quoted part being important, as it illustrates the unworkability of the Flores Agreement: children't can't be detained except, as a last resort, in a program willing to detain them. 

3) It's not some monolithic government program at work here.  Illegal immigrants are detained by CBP, handed over to ICE, who detains the adults on behalf of DOJ, and hands the children over to Health and Human Services (the "licensed program willing to accept custody").  It is, unsurprisingly, a complete cluster-!@#$.

 

And important to note: the Trump Administration is doing this specifically to apply pressure to Congress to amend immigration law, human trafficking law, and the Flores Agreement.  The Administration is implementing the law as literally as possible, with the specific intent of highlighting how byzantine and unworkable it's become, to motivate Congress to reform immigration law as they've been promising for as long as I can remember.

 

And also, there's a very significant anti-trafficking element to this.  Far more children are being rescued from trafficking than separated from parents by this policy.  

 

23 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

You're getting smacked around a little on this by DR.  But it's a good argument.

 

Questions:

1) the separation of families: How are we determining who is a family unit and who is not?  

 

 

Detention and investigation.

 

The bigger question is, how were we doing it before?  Just assuming every adult with a child was a "family unit?"  Pinky-swearing?  

 

That people are arguing that previous policy of not doing complete investigation of such was fair and workable should be cause for concern, particularly for anyone who's been reading Greg's posts.  A few days ago, they started DNA testing to reunite children with parents - if Greg's "global child trafficking conspiracy" theory is true, we'll see a slate of stories decrying that DNA testing as a civil rights' violation by the middle of the month.

[Koko78]

3 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Wouldn't the best, safest way to do this as a parent to enter through a port of entry rather than using coyotes and smugglers to illegally enter? If a family enters through a legal port of entry - which are clearly marked and known - they aren't separated. They aren't arrested. They are put in the system for asylum.

 

C'mon man, you know the left doesn't give two Schiffs about these kids, and they never have. The poor kids only matter when there's something to be outraged about. Of course, I could be wrong and BF4 could actually be advocating for locking children up in adult detention centers with sex traffickers/pedophiles. Because it's all about the children. Several times per day.

 

You'll notice that not one of these liberal asshats gave a crap about these poor kids when Obama, Bush, and Clinton were doing the same exact thing (or being outraged that Obama was putting them in tiny dog kennels.)

Edited July 8, 2018 by Koko78

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

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[BillsFan4]

6 hours ago, DC Tom said:

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Oversimplified, and incomplete. 

1) the "zero tolerance" policy is in reality a policy of ceasing to rely on the "honor system" for illegal immigrants to show up for their hearings.  Historically, a large number of border crossers have been release on their own recognizance after apprehension at the border, with them promising to show up for their hearings.  Needless to say, this sort of "pinky swear" due process doesn't historically work too well.

2) As illegal immigrants are now detained until their hearings as a matter of due process, the Flores Agreement from some 20 years ago requires children be released from detention "without unnecessary delay" to the "least restrictive" environment available.  Children effectively can't be detained if there's other options, which include "licensed programs willing to accept custody."  That last quoted part being important, as it illustrates the unworkability of the Flores Agreement: children't can't be detained except, as a last resort, in a program willing to detain them. 

3) It's not some monolithic government program at work here.  Illegal immigrants are detained by CBP, handed over to ICE, who detains the adults on behalf of DOJ, and hands the children over to Health and Human Services (the "licensed program willing to accept custody").  It is, unsurprisingly, a complete cluster-!@#$.

 

And important to note: the Trump Administration is doing this specifically to apply pressure to Congress to amend immigration law, human trafficking law, and the Flores Agreement.  The Administration is implementing the law as literally as possible, with the specific intent of highlighting how byzantine and unworkable it's become, to motivate Congress to reform immigration law as they've been promising for as long as I can remember.

 

And also, there's a very significant anti-trafficking element to this.  Far more children are being rescued from trafficking than separated from parents by this policy.  

 

Good post. I agree with a lot of it. Just so I am clear, I was never arguing that things were all peachy-keen under previous administrations and that no changes needed to be made. There were obviously a lot of issues with the way immigration is handled, and immigration law, some of which you did a great job of laying out. 

 

 

 

 

just a couple things -

 

 

1) agreed, and I realize that. But I was just talking about how it was the zero tolerance policy as originally issued, and them choosing to prosecute every immigrant they could without exception, that led to all of these children being separated from their parents at the border. 

 

It was that zero tolerance policy that gave the direction to prosecute every immigrant they possibly could with pretty much no exceptions - whether they’re alone or with families, first time offenders with no criminal history etc. No extenuating circumstances would be taken into account like with previous administrations.

The Trump administration choosing to prosecute every family they could, without exception, is what led to them having to detain the parents and seperate them from their kids. 

 

It wasn’t something that the Trump administration was helpless to prevent as they claim. If Trump hated seeing these kids taken from their families so much, he could have done something about it long before all the public outcry forced him to. 

In fact, he could have chose not to handle this situation in such a manner in the first place and he wouldn’t have even had to sign some bogus executive order to bail himself out. 

 

Basically, the way I see it, Trump chose to apply the law as harshly as he possibly could. Obama did not. 

 

2) agreed. My point there was that, again, it was a trump policy, and not the Flores agreement, that made these family separations such a wide spread occurrence.

The way I see it They basically used the Flores agreement to issue a policy that would seperate kids from their parents as a deterrent to entering the US. 

 

And that children were being detained, in part, to try and get rid of the Flores agreement (which republicans proposed) and by extension (depending on what they replaced it with) the law stopping them from detaining these immigrants for more than 20 days. As well as the requirements for what conditions these children must be held in

 

BTW I didn’t agree with it when Obama used the Flores agreement to detain whole families as a deterrent either. 

 

 

3) agreed again. It’s been a cluster **** for a long time, and I’m sure unscrupulous things have been happening for just as long.

But there is a change in the way this administration is directing them to act on the laws. 

 

 

Agree with your note, too. That was part of my point. They are doing this purposely, as a deterrent. They don’t Have To do this. They are doing it to try and put pressure on Congress to implement Trump’s immigration law changes. 

 

I completely disagree with it. IMO Children should not be used in this fashion. It’s wrong, no matter who does it, Democrat, republican or other. 

 

I don’t agree with some of the things that happened under Obama either, as far as immigration goes. There were advocacy groups that came after him too. He tried to toughen immigration stance, and ram cases through with an expedited legal process, and it was a disaster. It made it very hard for some immigrants to get their due process for asylum claims.

 

Just because I said that there were key differences in the way things are being handled doesn’t mean I agree with everything done by previous administrations. 

 

There are are key differences though.

 

Obama absolutely did not go out of his way to seperate as many families crossing the border as he could. Or so strongly try to deter, and in some cases outright refuse, no matter the circumstance, those seeking legal asylum. 

Obama didn’t ban entire nations from entering the US, either.  

 

I mean, When have 2000+ children been separated from their families at the border in a 6 week time span before? 

 

When have we seen these mass trials of immigrants becoming a normal occurrence like we are seeing in places like McAllen, Texas? 

 

 

 

Btw, I’d be interested to read any links you have, or numbers or whatever, on immigrant children being saved from trafficking by this new policy. If thats true, that is definitely nice to hear. 

 

I was under the impression that adults who crossed illegally had to prove their identity and the identity of anyone with them (children, etc) through things like fingerprinting, a checklist of documentation, and/or contact with family members in cases (etc) before being released to await their court date? 

 

And i I thought that under previous administrations, children were already separated from those they suspected of being traffickers? 

Maybe I am remembering incorrectly though... 

 

 

If separating all these children saved more from traffickers, it would be a bit of a silver lining (and a happy coincidence). But I don’t buy for a minute that it had anything to do with the motive behind this (not saying that’s what you implied).  

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by BillsFan4

[DC Tom]

10 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

If separating all these children saved more from traffickers, it would be a bit of a silver lining (and a happy coincidence). But I don’t buy for a minute that it had anything to do with the motive behind this (not saying that’s what you implied).  

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not implying it.  I'm stating it.

[Deranged Rhino]

(have to catch up in this thread... but as I do, putting this here): 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

Land owners in south Texas getting letters on border wall

Maybe it will slow the flow? Then,  children will not have to be separated from their parents when their parents commit the crime of coming to the United States illegally?

[Foxx]

it's too bad the left can't call this #fakenews....

 

some highlights (lowlights) from the article.

 

Judicial Watch: New HHS Documents Reveal that ‘Unaccompanied Alien Children’ Processed During Obama Years Included Violent Criminals, Drug Smugglers, and Human Traffickers

 

Reports Include 1,000 ‘Significant Incident Reports,’ Revealing UAC ‘Refugees’ Admitting to Murder for Drug Cartels, Prostitution, and Sexual Predation

Reports Also Cite Incidents of U.S. Government Contractors/Employees Allegedly Assaulting Unaccompanied Alien Children

(Washington, DC) – Judicial Watch today released 224 pages of documents containing nearly 1,000 summaries of Significant Incident Reports (SIRs) from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)  revealing that “Unaccompanied Alien Children” (UAC) processed during the Obama administration included admitted murderers, rapists, drug smugglers, prostitutes, and human traffickers.

The documents, from the HHS Administration for Children and Families reported to the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), are for the approximate six-month period May to November 2014. They were produced to Judicial Watch after a three-year delay in response to a November 12, 2014, Freedom of Information Act ...

 

... 

The resulting documents show that, in fiscal year 2014, there were 24,680 Significant Incident Reports filed with Office of Refugee Resettlement.

Examples of incident reports below are organized into four general categories:

 

1. UACs admitting to murder, belonging to MS-13, threatening others with rape, admitting to drug smuggling, molesting other UACs and seriously assaulting other UACs or staff;
2. UACs who were raped and/or molested en route to the United States or in the United States;
3. U.S. Government contractors and employees allegedly assaulting or having sexual relationships with UACs; and
4. Other incidents, crimes, abuse and self-harm.

...

 

 

... “The Obama administration presided over a humanitarian and public safety nightmare in its handling of ‘unaccompanied alien children,’” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. “The incident reports also support the Trump administration’s contention that the UAC crisis, which continues, includes murderers, rapists, drug smugglers and human traffickers being routinely allowed into the United States.”

Judicial Watch began investigating this matter in 2014 when a wave of “Unaccompanied Alien Children” swamped the southwest border. At that time, the controversial HHS contract with Baptist Children and Family Services to provide shelter to children at two military facilities came to light. Through that investigation, Judicial Watch learned that BCFS was providing consumer electronics as “essential” items to the children. Since that time, Judicial Watch has been investigating incidents of violence, drug trafficking, human trafficking, and other criminal activities, as well as whether innocent children were being abused while in U.S. shelters.

[B-Man]

Democrats -- the masks are off

 

 

“Here’s our abolish ice bill Mr. Speaker. We demand you to put it on the floor and call a vote.”

 

“Okay let’s call a vote.”

 

“We will not partake in this shameless political stunt of yours. How dare you sir.”............

 

 

Bluff status: CALLED! These Dems’ ‘abolish ICE’ bill just backfired BIG TIME

 

It’s being reported that the House Republicans will put a Democrat bill that would abolish ICE up for a vote:

 

Via The Hill:

House GOP leaders plan to bring a Democratic measure calling for the abolishment of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to the House floor, hoping to force Democrats into a difficult vote.

The Democratic bill, introduced Thursday, would create a commission to examine ICE’s responsibilities and then recommend transferring them to other agencies.

Republicans see the growing “abolish ICE” movement as a political winner that will make at least some Democrats running in swing districts uncomfortable.

The bill was sponsored by three Dems, and guess who reportedly won’t be voting for their own bill:

 

More at the link:

 

 

 

 

 

 

They’re calling a vote on their own bill a stunt? Ha!

 

 

 

[LB3]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5946471/amp/DOJ-adults-separated-kids-border-murderers-child-abusers-kidnappers.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

Quote

Meekins described one adult who said he was a parent 'right up until the time of a DNA swab,' and then retracted his claim.

Authorities determined that one potential child sponsor was alleged to have abused the child he was trying to claim.

Another told the government that if his child were returned to him, he planned to house the youngster with an adult who has been charged with sex abuse of a young girl.

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by LBSeeBallLBGetBall

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5946471/amp/DOJ-adults-separated-kids-border-murderers-child-abusers-kidnappers.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

Yep.  Combating child trafficking is a huge motivation for this program.  

[LB3]

6 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

Yep.  Combating child trafficking is a huge motivation for this program.  

That's the sad part about the hysteria over the border issue. This is one of the most noble things this administration could do and it's being labeled as child abuse by people who don't know better. Which is pretty much anyone who watches the news.

[Deranged Rhino]

25 minutes ago, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said:

That's the sad part about the hysteria over the border issue. This is one of the most noble things this administration could do and it's being labeled as child abuse by people who don't know better. Which is pretty much anyone who watches the news.

 

It's projection. The guiltiest are so quick to project onto others that of what they're guilty of. It's SO easy to spot in today's political landscape because it's been turned upside down. 

 

The dems who led the charge, and the never trumpers, have a vested interest in keeping open borders, and the trafficking lanes, open. Some profit in votes. Others in more nefarious ways. Try to stop it, and their first response will always be to accuse you of what they are doing. 

[DC Tom]

22 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

It's projection. The guiltiest are so quick to project onto others that of what they're guilty of. It's SO easy to spot in today's political landscape because it's been turned upside down. 

 

The dems who led the charge, and the never trumpers, have a vested interest in keeping open borders, and the trafficking lanes, open. Some profit in votes. Others in more nefarious ways. Try to stop it, and their first response will always be to accuse you of what they are doing. 

 

For a hell of a lot of people, it's just straightforward ignorance and misinformation.  I know some people who work in child services who are shocked when I explain to them how bad the issue of human trafficking is at the border.

 

The portrayal of illegal immigration over the past 30 years has trained most people to think of it as simply migration, to the point of being completely blind to the obvious fact that you can't reliably and consistently protect the rights of immigrants who aren't documented.  The authorities, through mismanagement or malice, have created an immigration system designed to traffic people.

[GG]

2 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

The portrayal of illegal immigration over the past 30 years has trained most people to think of it as simply migration, to the point of being completely blind to the obvious fact that you can't reliably and consistently protect the rights of immigrants who aren't documented.  The authorities, through mismanagement or malice, have created an immigration system designed to traffic people.

 

There was a throwaway scene in Weeds where Nancy watched a few lanky blondes escorted through a smuggling tunnel from Mexico into the US.  Clearly, not just fictional artistic license.

[Deranged Rhino]

9 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

For a hell of a lot of people, it's just straightforward ignorance and misinformation.  I know some people who work in child services who are shocked when I explain to them how bad the issue of human trafficking is at the border.

 

The portrayal of illegal immigration over the past 30 years has trained most people to think of it as simply migration, to the point of being completely blind to the obvious fact that you can't reliably and consistently protect the rights of immigrants who aren't documented.  The authorities, through mismanagement or malice, have created an immigration system designed to traffic people.

 

Absolutely - I was speaking more about the politicians who (largely) know better. 

[IDBillzFan]

13 minutes ago, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said:

That's the sad part about the hysteria over the border issue. This is one of the most noble things this administration could do and it's being labeled as child abuse by people who don't know better. Which is pretty much anyone who watches the news.

 

It's important to understand: the American left is no more interested in children at the border than they are about children in the womb.

 

This is exclusively about fighting the enemy...the terrorists....the true evil doers in this world, which is anyone who doesn't think like them.

[Paulus]

It is great how illegal aliens have become such a valuable political bargaining chip. 

 

https://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article215095600.html

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 hours ago, Paulus said:

It is great how illegal aliens have become such a valuable political bargaining chip. 

 

https://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/article215095600.html

 

And so it begins.

[Paulus]

4 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

And so it begins.

And, we still need the fed to tell us all that Illegal Aliens vote. Right, if this isn't encouraging treason...