Scorp83 Posted May 12, 2018 Author Share Posted May 12, 2018 4 hours ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said: Well then he was DEAD wrong because at least TWO, if not more teams had him in the top ten of the first round, if not more Yea because he's a QB... just because he has a 3rd rd grade in him doesn't mean a team can't overdraft him in the 1st rd. That's what all the experts were projecting... that a team will take him in the 1st. But that doesn't mean him going in the 1st rd is justifiable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: Why because they are not praising our top 10 pick??? Your being bias... "Your being bias" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WPBillsFan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 4 hours ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said: Well then he was DEAD wrong because at least TWO, if not more teams had him in the top ten of the first round, if not more This is confusing on so many levels... smh 18 minutes ago, Scorp83 said: Yea because he's a QB... just because he has a 3rd rd grade in him doesn't mean a team can't overdraft him in the 1st rd. That's what all the experts were projecting... that a team will take him in the 1st. But that doesn't mean him going in the 1st rd is justifiable This 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 2 hours ago, The_Dude said: My argument isn’t that Ledyard’s opinion is better; it’s that his job is to give HIS opinion. It’s noy to say what fans want to hear. That’s all. And many others' argument is that his opinion has not been anywhere close to accurate about QBs in the past, so there isn't much reason to care about his thoughts on Allen over someone else's with a better track record. That's all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 20 hours ago, WPBillsFan said: 2 things that sticks out... He had Allen as a 3rd rd grade... wow Then us not getting weapons around Allen. I want to see Allen succeed but I was thinking the same thing... how can he without any legitimate weapons. I love Benjamin but I've lost faith in Zay cause he had alot of drops last year. After today, & I could be reading too much in it, but I think they are gearing up for Allen to start day 1... especially with the 1-on-1 treatment he was getting today. It is rookie mini camp. Who was suppose to get the attention? 18 hours ago, Elite Poster said: I mean, Edmunds was pick 16 so he was a late first.... Late first??? There are 32 picks in the first round. Math man....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 18 hours ago, The_Dude said: Ledyard is a SOLID analyst. His job isn’t to reassure you on your teams draft pick; it’s to give his honest opinion. It was all professional criticism. I actually have no problem with a negative opinion but as fans we also have a right to look at his incorrect past opinions and there have been ready MOST analysts do not share his round 3 grade opinion regardless of garbage that gets put on the board by certain posters and if ledlard is gonna talk about lack of weapons out around him he should also talk about the huge dead cap we are carrying this year making it difficult the bills decided to complete their defense instead with their draft picks because they felt they were of higher quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 4 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said: I think Orlovsky watched one game of Allen, which was possibly his worst game: vs. Oregon. He uses an example of one single play of Allen missing a RB checkdown on a blitz as his narrative that Allen doesn't have it upstairs. Pretty silly. This play Before the play you see the RB's head turn and look at Allen, as though they're exchanging a word. Then, if you frame through it, Allen appears to be looking in the RB's direction as though he's waiting for him. About 1:22-1:23, as Orlovsky is talking about where Allen should go with the ball, the LT and DE appear to be directly on a line between Allen and the RB, blocking the throw. I think the RB didn't run the route Allen expected him to run - RB should be further behind the LOS not where the LT and DE are screening him off - and Allen is now desperately looking for somewhere to go with the ball in the face of a charging LB. (Alternatively, the RB may be where he should be, but the LT got shoved back, I think the former) I'm not saying Orlovsky's right about Allen's "game mind." I'm not saying he's wrong, either. But to use this play as definitive evidence that Allen is "surprised" by a basic blitz and therefore has no head for the game is, IMO, a bit tenuous. I think this play may be one of those discussed in "The Wake Up Call" with Kirk Cousins where Allen says he and the RB weren't on the same page about what route to run with zone v. man coverage, but not sure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 20 hours ago, Scorp83 said: This dude John is a beast! Even my boy Sal tried to set him up with some good questions & Mr. Ledyard had answer after answer... on the state of the Bills Check it out... 05-11 Jon Ledyard on Schopp and the Bulldog - http://www.wgr550.com/media/podcast/schopp-and-bulldog The more ore you look into the guy - the bigger joke he is. Go back to 2016 and look at his big board and read about the player. He has Shaq Lawson as a guaranteed top 10 pick because he can rush the passer from either DE or OLB. What a joke. He has the top QB taken number 1 as the 42nd best player and the first tackle as his 31st. He has Paxton Lynch and Cardale Jones as better prospects than Carson Wentz. 3 of his top 10 players ranked on his big board were not even drafted in the first round and 7 of the top 10 were drafted 12 or later. The guy is not good at evaluating talent and ranking talent. 2017 and 2018 are not much better with his rankings and where these guys go and how they played. I think he watches limited film and then puts together his thoughts, but it is not any better than a guy like Gunner Bill and I would submit he is worse. He has no additional access and no interviews - so everything is based on limited film - not even game film. This guy guy is a joke. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 2 hours ago, The_Dude said: My argument isn’t that Ledyard’s opinion is better; it’s that his job is to give HIS opinion. It’s noy to say what fans want to hear. That’s all. That's cool; I interpreted that "Ledyard's opinion is better" is what you meant by saying (emphasis yours) "Ledyard is a SOLID analyst" Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, I'm uncertain. I'm with you that it's his job to give his opinion, the question is what is his background and track record such that we (as fans) should weight his opinion higher than, say, Buffalo716, Or Metzelaarslives, or for that matter, yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 20 hours ago, Fadingpain said: Ledyard on Allen: He had 3rd round grade on him. Talent/athleticism is awesome, but at end of day decision making/accuracy are issues. Is it possible to develop the talent? Yes, but difficult. He he had a similar grade on Wentz and seems to have real issues with QB grades. I don’t think he understands the QB position very well and what to look for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 15 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Ledyard didn't suddenly formulate his opinion on Allen after the Bills drafted him. His critiques are legitimate and backed up by Orlovsky and others even if those who want ensconce Allen in a safe place don't want to admit he needs work in the very areas that Ledyard speaks of. That is not what people are saying at all people are saying that despite his obvious issues he needs to work through his ceiling is so high you can’t grade him as a 3 rd round project 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 19 hours ago, ColoradoBills said: He had Tremaine Edmunds going as a Tier 3 guy end of 1st round beginning of 2nd. I guess the Bill's are doomed! LOL Yes, but he had Shaq Lawson as his 6th best player in 2016 and a guaranteed top 10 pick. So we are saved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 Just now, John from Riverside said: That is not what people are saying at all people are saying that despite his obvious issues he needs to work through his ceiling is so high you can’t grade him as a 3 rd round project Some people were intimating that his analysis of Allen was anti-Bills and I was just pointing out that it can't be that with the timing and consistency of his opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This play Before the play you see the RB's head turn and look at Allen, as though they're exchanging a word. Then, if you frame through it, Allen appears to be looking in the RB's direction as though he's waiting for him. About 1:22-1:23, as Orlovsky is talking about where Allen should go with the ball, the LT and DE appear to be directly on a line between Allen and the RB, blocking the throw. I think the RB didn't run the route Allen expected him to run - RB should be further behind the LOS not where the LT and DE are screening him off - and Allen is now desperately looking for somewhere to go with the ball in the face of a charging LB. (Alternatively, the RB may be where he should be, but the LT got shoved back, I think the former) I'm not saying Orlovsky's right about Allen's "game mind." I'm not saying he's wrong, either. But to use this play as definitive evidence that Allen is "surprised" by a basic blitz and therefore has no head for the game is, IMO, a bit tenuous. I think this play may be one of those discussed in "The Wake Up Call" with Kirk Cousins where Allen says he and the RB weren't on the same page about what route to run with zone v. man coverage, but not sure. Orlovsky harps on this one play as the basis for crapping on Allen. Patented group-think mentality. Proof that former NFL players are not at all immune to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Some people were intimating that his analysis of Allen was anti-Bills and I was just pointing out that it can't be that with the timing and consistency of his opinion. Yeah, his bias is against presenting credible evaluations apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 15 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: Ledyard is very good...His Locked On NFL Draft Podcast is my favorite of all the Draft Podcasts...I try to listen to every one during Draft season... He's really sharp...I've heard him talk a lot about the Buffalo market...He's been on WGR a ton this off season, and he found out quick Bills fans will come at him if he's less than prepared ( I think it had to do with Groy)... He's crazy prepared though usually...He was born to do what he's doing for sure... I wouldn’t say he is born to do what he is doing - his talent evaluation in 2016 was literally awful. 2017 and 2018 is not a lot better. He talks well well and is not afraid to speak his mind, but honestly I question if he really understands what GMs and scouts look for. From everything I can read - he is an absurdly poor judge of talent and ranking of players and that gets compounded because he doesn’t interview players, talk with staffs, or watch the coaches film or maybe he would not list 3 of his top 10 players in 2016 that all fell into the second round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: Yeah, his bias is against presenting credible evaluations apparently. Let us all hope. No draft analyst is 100% accurate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Some people were intimating that his analysis of Allen was anti-Bills and I was just pointing out that it can't be that with the timing and consistency of his opinion. I wouldn’t say it is anti-Bills - I would contend that he has no idea what he is looking at for QB play and rankings. 2016 - Geof was in the 40s, Wentz was late 50s and Paxton Lynch and Cardale Jones ahead of him. He he has an opinion, but it does not appear to be shared by many others that actually make these picks and his logic and understanding is flawed. 14 hours ago, KOKBILLS said: He's a tough grader, especially on QB's...He had Darnold at #35 overall...So it's not just Allen...And he's not grading by where he thinks they will go...He knew both Darnold and Allen would go top 10...He's purposely not adding positional value either... Nobody get them all right...He's the 1st to admit he's missed on some QB's in the past...Who hasn't? And no offense but I'm quite sure he's MUCH better than you think he is...Like...100% sure... Then in what is the point of his big board - he ranks these guys, but his top 10 consist of a bunch of late round 1 and round 2 guys - guys that have not proven anything in 2 years - while guys he ranked in the 40s and 50s that were drafted top 10 have shown themselves to be on their way. Therefore the 2 conclusions are he is not really very good or he is purposely missing to get people to talk about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 19 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Umn no that is absolutely not true....why are you posting this crap? Don't confuse where he was rated with where he was predicted to go in the draft. Ledyard himself, who had Allen "rated" as a 3rd round prospect, said in the same GR-55 segment that he predicted he would go in the top 10 for sure, or something like that. His point being that NFL teams just can't hold off on a guy like Allen b/c they foolishly overvalue traits/talents and don't look at the whole picture of whether or not a QB prospect is likely to succeed in the NFL. He is basically saying if you view Allen objectively, he is a 3rd round lottery ticket. If you want to predict how NFL teams will view him in the draft, he'll be picked in the top 10. Most analysts had similar things to say about him. Lots of Bills fans focus on the "tremendous upside" of Allen, but fail to remember that you must multiple that by the likelihood of success in hitting that upside, which is very low. On aggregate, Allen is a traditional, lower round, high risk, likely to fail, gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 12, 2018 Share Posted May 12, 2018 5 hours ago, Nervous Guy said: He wasn't exactly glowing in his reviews of Carson Wentz either...." He still struggles with location and accuracy, operating from a wide base at times instead of standing more upright in the pocket. Wentz has a big arm that will occasionally force the ball into coverage, often because he processes his reads and opposing defenses too slowly in the pocket. By the time he’s made a decision, defenders have often maneuvered into position to make a play on the ball." Does this sound familiar? I wouldn't mind if Allen turned out like Wentz. https://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/01/31/carson-wentz-is-who-we-thought-he-was-and-there-is-nothing-wrong-with-that/ His take on the entire 2016 class was woefully wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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