Bing Bong Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I'll just summarize by saying with our skill position players as they are, we need a certain playing style from our quarterback. Some quarterbacks simply need the help, others get by without it. Regarding the quarterbacks in the draft, we need to reach for a Baker, Jackson, Darnold because these are playing styles that won't be super dependent on the lack of skill position talent we currently have. I think some quarterbacks get by with middling receiver talents. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers always turn water into wine every year. Josh Allen, Rosen, Rudolph are types that seem to need WR talent to succeed (mind you this is information I gather from TBD, I don't know anything about these draftees. And I think there have been great quarterbacks that clearly needed this to succeed. Think Rich Gannon when he got him one Jerry Rice, Culpepper to Moss, Eli with ODB or Plax, or a freak Tyree catch. Even Peyton Manning was better (mind you he was always good, but I'm saying better) when he was working with Reggie Wayne, Harrison, Edgerrin. And his great Denver years had Demaryius (??) Thomas, Eric Decker, Julius Thomas and Wes Welker. I'm fascinated by Kurt Warner's career because he played with so many HOFs that without him still performed at a HOF level. When they were aging, or he was on a team with middling talent, he wasn't so hot. I don't think he has the success without Torry, Bruce, Faulk, Fitz, Boldin. TLDR a Kurt Warner at his prime would struggle on this team. Kurt Warner #1 Age #2 #3 Year Age Tm G GS Rate 1998 27 STL 1 0 47.2 1999*+ 28 STL 16 16 109.2 Isaac Bruce 27 Marshall Faulk 26 Torry Holt 23 2000* 29 STL 11 11 98.3 Torry Holt 24 Isaac Bruce 28 Marshall Faulk 27 2001*+ 30 STL 16 16 101.4 Torry Holt 25 Isaac Bruce 29 Marshall Faulk 28 2002 31 STL 7 6 67.4 Torry Holt 26 Isaac Bruce 30 Marshall Faulk 29 2003 32 STL 2 1 72.9 Torry Holt 27 Isaac Bruce 31 Dane Looker 27 2004 33 NYG 10 9 86.5 Amani Toomer 30 Jeremy Shockey 24 Tiki Barber 29 2005 34 ARI 10 10 85.8 Larry Fitzgerald 22 Anquan Boldin 25 Bryant Johnson 24 2006 35 ARI 6 5 89.3 Anquan Boldin 26 Larry Fitzgerald 23 Bryant Johnson 25 2007 36 ARI 14 11 89.8 Larry Fitzgerald 24 Anquan Boldin 27 Bryant Johnson 26 2008* 37 ARI 16 16 96.9 Larry Fitzgerald 25 Anquan Boldin 28 Steve Breaston 25 2009 38 ARI 15 15 93.2 Larry Fitzgerald 26 Anquan Boldin 29 Steve Breaston 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 You lost me at Jackson. I could be wrong, but I’m just not feeling that. Baker or Darnold? Sure, I’m all in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Just regarding Kurt Warner.....he was awesome. Loved watching him deal it out. I don’t know if he would’ve been a HoF if he was in the Bills all those years, but he played his part at a high level for several seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 8, 2018 Author Share Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Augie said: You lost me at Jackson. I could be wrong, but I’m just not feeling that. Baker or Darnold? Sure, I’m all in. I really don't know tbh. Just what I gather from the board, people who follow college more closely. Thought Jackson was the type to scramble for broken plays at which point any WR will be open eventually. Point really is I hope our FO has this in mind. Edited April 8, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, NewEra said: Just regarding Kurt Warner.....he was awesome. Loved watching him deal it out. I don’t know if he would’ve been a HoF if he was in the Bills all those years, but he played his part at a high level for several seasons With the Bills he’d be striving for the Grocery Shelf Stocking HOF, I’m afraid. Brady ruins this argument in so many ways. Go away, Tommy Boy. 8 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said: I really don't know tbh. Just what I gather from the board, people who follow college more closely. Thought Jackson was the type to scramble for broken plays at which point any WR will be open eventually. You know that sounds like a guy we just sent to the Browns, right? It seems we are trying to get away from that. Maybe he can find the second read, or the middle of the field....I don’t know.... Back to the Masters! Edited April 8, 2018 by Augie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 There aren't many QB (arguably any) who can perform without talent at WR and OL. Brady is probably the closest, but that's because he's been playing in a stable system and they plug guys in and say "do your job". If you look closely, you see that when Rodgers Rivers and Brees have been deprived of key targets, their play has fallen off. I think it's air-dreaming to think that any QB in this draft wont need a strong line and talented targets to perform adequately. With regard to Kurt Warner, it's noteworthy that he became expendable because they had another QB performing at a high level, which is why Warner's targets continued to do well without him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 8, 2018 Author Share Posted April 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: With regard to Kurt Warner, it's noteworthy that he became expendable because they had another QB performing at a high level, which is why Warner's targets continued to do well without him. Were great before him too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 EVERY QB that ever played has been dependent on his surrounding personnel. Every. One. It is just that elemental. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Rosen did what he did with what at WR? When you put him in the group that needs help but Jackson in a group that can do it with limited skill players makes me wonder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 8, 2018 Author Share Posted April 8, 2018 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: Rosen did what he did with what at WR? When you put him in the group that needs help but Jackson in a group that can do it with limited skill players makes me wonder I don't know jack about the quarterbacks haha, swap rosen for Jackson, I just want the FO to get that guy that can do more with less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said: I don't know jack about the quarterbacks haha, swap rosen for Jackson, I just want the FO to get that guy that can do more with less. ALL teams want the guy that can do more with less. Those QBs are not common.Maybe 4 or 5 in the league right now. Truly great QBs can win with average talent. Good QBs need good or even great talent around them to succeed. Mediocre ones can't do much regardless. Edited April 8, 2018 by Boatdrinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 8, 2018 Author Share Posted April 8, 2018 Just now, Boatdrinks said: ALL teams want the guy that can do more with less. Those QBs are not common. Truly great QBs can win with average talent. Good QBs need good or even great talent around them to succeed. Mediocre ones can't do much regardless. if I had a Dallas OLine or Ram's skill positions I'd be comfortable taking a Mason Rudolph or Josh Allen. Josh Allen would be a particular bad fit with no deep ball going for him, whereas he's be great with a Josh Gordon or name your favorite star speedster. Would still be a good team. Dak would have mediocre on the Bills rookie season, but the Cowboys had the luxury of taking him on a whim and starting him with huge success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said: ALL teams want the guy that can do more with less. Those QBs are not common.Maybe 4 or 5 in the league right now. Truly great QBs can win with average talent. Good QBs need good or even great talent around them to succeed. Mediocre ones can't do much regardless. It’s not just that those QB are not common, it’s that even the QB who can “do more with less” now, were not that guy when they first came into the league. Brees took about 3 years to start to play well. Rodgers sat, who knows how he would have done had he been thrown into the fire right away. Brady was not expected to do as much his first years playing, nor did he 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Donovan McNabb was another that did a lot with little around him. (Todd Pinkston/James Thrash) The hell was Andy Reid thinking?! You got a taste what could have been when he had TO for a season. Carolina is currently selling their franchise short by not putting much around Cam. Look for Trubisky to make strides this season because of the exact theme of this thread. The Bears get it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: It’s not just that those QB are not common, it’s that even the QB who can “do more with less” now, were not that guy when they first came into the league. Brees took about 3 years to start to play well. Rodgers sat, who knows how he would have done had he been thrown into the fire right away. Brady was not expected to do as much his first years playing, nor did he I think Tyrod is that type of quarterback.. I view it as a playing style, do you lock into your first read, say an AJ, AB, Moss, and toss it up to him? Tyrod couldn't do that with Deonte, and was poor at making the next reads, and generally just dumped it to Clay or Shady, his best players. He had a somewhat correct ability to adapt to personnel, just not nearly in the tier that other quarterbacks do. We get a playing style that adapts to lack of skill position players, we can get an upgrade to Tyrod. If I look at quarterbacks on bad offenses that do well, I'd argue guys like Mariota, Cousins, Smith have this style, making more with less. It's just to a lesser degree to when we talk about Rodgers, Brady. The flip side is QBs that thrive with stud weapons and may do better than Smith in the same situation. Andy Dalton (AJ McCarron thus far) and Matt Ryan have the premier WRs in the league, and maximize that talent, while Russell Wilson fails to use Graham to maximize his play because he's not the type to toss up jump balls. He's essentially a more cerebral, accurate, etc., better than every way than Tyrod, but ultimately has a similar style of play. Either way works, we need to recognize what QBs in this draft are the Russ, Mariota, Cousins, Smith mold, because that's the situation we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 3 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said: Regarding the quarterbacks in the draft, we need to reach for a Baker, Jackson, Darnold because these are playing styles that won't be super dependent on the lack of skill position talent we currently have. I think some quarterbacks get by with middling receiver talents. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers always turn water into wine every year. The thing is though, drafting a Franchise QB is a long-term plan. Choosing a QB for what best fits your team right now is too short-sighted. Choose the best QB you can find, then get him players as you go. For, what is hopefully, a decade+ career with your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: The thing is though, drafting a Franchise QB is a long-term plan. Choosing a QB for what best fits your team right now is too short-sighted. Choose the best QB you can find, then get him players as you go. For, what is hopefully, a decade+ career with your team. That's fine. But we need to tailor the franchise man's roster quick. The Rams clearly recognized Goff needed help in the WR position for year 2. He's that kind of quarterback and that's not a problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Just now, PetermanThrew5Picks said: That's fine. But we need to tailor the franchise man's roster quick. The Rams clearly recognized Goff needed help in the WR position for year 2. He's that kind of quarterback and that's not a problem at all. Rams and (looks like) Bears did it the 2nd year for their guys. We have time, and cap room next year. 2-3 years to build around him. Plus WRs are constantly churning anyways, on every roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 9, 2018 Author Share Posted April 9, 2018 Seems like the Panthers want that QB. Cam did fine with few weapons, I think that philosophy is carrying over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Allan in MD Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 It helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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