HOT TAKE: Some of the greatest quarterbacks are dependent on their personnel

[Bing Bong]

I'll just summarize by saying with our skill position players as they are, we need a certain playing style from our quarterback. Some quarterbacks simply need the help, others get by without it.

 

Regarding the quarterbacks in the draft, we need to reach for a Baker, Jackson, Darnold because these are playing styles that won't be super dependent on the lack of skill position talent we currently have. I think some quarterbacks get by with middling receiver talents. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers always turn water into wine every year.

 

Josh Allen, Rosen, Rudolph are types that seem to need WR talent to succeed (mind you this is information I gather from TBD, I don't know anything about these draftees. And I think there have been great quarterbacks that clearly needed this to succeed. Think Rich Gannon when he got him one Jerry Rice, Culpepper to Moss, Eli with ODB or Plax, or a freak Tyree catch. Even Peyton Manning was better (mind you he was always good, but I'm saying better) when he was working with Reggie Wayne, Harrison, Edgerrin. And his great Denver years had Demaryius (??) Thomas, Eric Decker, Julius Thomas and Wes Welker. 

 

I'm fascinated by Kurt Warner's career because he played with so many HOFs that without him still performed at a HOF level. When they were aging, or he was on a team with middling talent, he wasn't so hot. I don't think he has the success without Torry, Bruce, Faulk, Fitz, Boldin. TLDR a Kurt Warner at his prime would struggle on this team.

 

Kurt Warner						#1	Age	#2		#3
Year	Age	Tm	G	GS	Rate
1998	27	STL	1	0	47.2
1999*+	28	STL	16	16	109.2	Isaac Bruce	27	Marshall Faulk	26	Torry Holt	23
2000*	29	STL	11	11	98.3	Torry Holt	24	Isaac Bruce	28	Marshall Faulk	27
2001*+	30	STL	16	16	101.4	Torry Holt	25	Isaac Bruce	29	Marshall Faulk	28
2002	31	STL	7	6	67.4	Torry Holt	26	Isaac Bruce	30	Marshall Faulk	29
2003	32	STL	2	1	72.9	Torry Holt	27	Isaac Bruce	31	Dane Looker	27
2004	33	NYG	10	9	86.5	Amani Toomer	30	Jeremy Shockey	24	Tiki Barber	29
2005	34	ARI	10	10	85.8	Larry Fitzgerald	22	Anquan Boldin	25	Bryant Johnson	24
2006	35	ARI	6	5	89.3	Anquan Boldin	26	Larry Fitzgerald	23	Bryant Johnson	25
2007	36	ARI	14	11	89.8	Larry Fitzgerald	24	Anquan Boldin	27	Bryant Johnson	26
2008*	37	ARI	16	16	96.9	Larry Fitzgerald	25	Anquan Boldin	28	Steve Breaston	25
2009	38	ARI	15	15	93.2	Larry Fitzgerald	26	Anquan Boldin	29	Steve Breaston	26

[Augie]

You lost me at Jackson.

 

 

I could be wrong, but I’m just not feeling that. Baker or Darnold? Sure, I’m all in. 

[NewEra]

Just regarding Kurt Warner.....he was awesome. Loved watching him deal it out.  I don’t know if he would’ve been a HoF if he was in the Bills all those years, but he played his part at a high level for several seasons

[Bing Bong]

4 minutes ago, Augie said:

You lost me at Jackson.

 

 

I could be wrong, but I’m just not feeling that. Baker or Darnold? Sure, I’m all in. 

I really don't know tbh. Just what I gather from the board, people who follow college more closely. Thought Jackson was the type to scramble for broken plays at which point any WR will be open eventually.

 

Point really is I hope our FO has this in mind.

Edited April 8, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Just regarding Kurt Warner.....he was awesome. Loved watching him deal it out.  I don’t know if he would’ve been a HoF if he was in the Bills all those years, but he played his part at a high level for several seasons

 

With the Bills he’d be striving for the Grocery Shelf Stocking HOF, I’m afraid. 

 

Brady ruins this argument in so many ways. Go away, Tommy Boy. 

8 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I really don't know tbh. Just what I gather from the board, people who follow college more closely. Thought Jackson was the type to scramble for broken plays at which point any WR will be open eventually.

 

You know that sounds like a guy we just sent to the Browns, right? It seems we are trying to get away from that. Maybe he can find the second read, or the middle of the field....I don’t know.... 

 

Back to the Masters! 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Augie

[Hapless Bills Fan]

There aren't many QB (arguably any) who can perform without talent at WR and OL.

Brady is probably the closest, but that's because he's been playing in a stable system and they plug guys in and say "do your job". 

If you look closely, you see that when Rodgers Rivers and Brees have been deprived of key targets, their play has fallen off.

 

I think it's air-dreaming to think that any QB in this draft wont need a strong line and talented targets to perform adequately.

 

With regard to Kurt Warner, it's noteworthy that he became expendable because they had another QB performing at a high level, which is why Warner's targets continued to do well without him.

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

With regard to Kurt Warner, it's noteworthy that he became expendable because they had another QB performing at a high level, which is why Warner's targets continued to do well without him.

Were great before him too

[K-9]

EVERY QB that ever played has been dependent on his surrounding personnel. Every. One. It is just that elemental.

[MAJBobby]

Rosen did what he did with what at WR?  When you put him in the group that needs help but Jackson in a group that can do it with limited skill players makes me wonder 

[Bing Bong]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Rosen did what he did with what at WR?  When you put him in the group that needs help but Jackson in a group that can do it with limited skill players makes me wonder 

I don't know jack about the quarterbacks haha, swap rosen for Jackson, I just want the FO to get that guy that can do more with less.

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I don't know jack about the quarterbacks haha, swap rosen for Jackson, I just want the FO to get that guy that can do more with less.

ALL teams want the guy that can do more with less. Those QBs are not common.Maybe 4 or 5 in the league right now.  Truly great QBs can win with average talent. Good QBs need good or even great talent around them to succeed. Mediocre ones can't do much regardless. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Boatdrinks

[Bing Bong]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

ALL teams want the guy that can do more with less. Those QBs are not common. Truly great QBs can win with average talent. Good QBs need good or even great talent around them to succeed. Mediocre ones can't do much regardless. 

if I had a Dallas OLine or Ram's skill positions I'd be comfortable taking a Mason Rudolph or Josh Allen. Josh Allen would be a particular bad fit with no deep ball going for him, whereas he's be great with a Josh Gordon or name your favorite star speedster. Would still be a good team. Dak would have mediocre on the Bills rookie season, but the Cowboys had the luxury of taking him on a whim and starting him with huge success.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

ALL teams want the guy that can do more with less. Those QBs are not common.Maybe 4 or 5 in the league right now.  Truly great QBs can win with average talent. Good QBs need good or even great talent around them to succeed. Mediocre ones can't do much regardless. 

 

It’s not just that those QB are not common, it’s that even the QB who can “do more with less” now, were not that guy when they first came into the league.

Brees took about 3 years to start to play well.  Rodgers sat, who knows how he would have done had he been thrown into the fire right away.  Brady was not expected to do as much his first years playing, nor did he

[Chicken Boo]

Donovan McNabb was another that did a lot with little around him.

(Todd Pinkston/James Thrash)

 

The hell was Andy Reid thinking?!  You got a taste what could have been when he had TO for a season.

 

Carolina is currently selling their franchise short by not putting much around Cam.

 

Look for Trubisky to make strides this season because of the exact theme of this thread.  The Bears get it!

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It’s not just that those QB are not common, it’s that even the QB who can “do more with less” now, were not that guy when they first came into the league.

Brees took about 3 years to start to play well.  Rodgers sat, who knows how he would have done had he been thrown into the fire right away.  Brady was not expected to do as much his first years playing, nor did he

I think Tyrod is that type of quarterback.. I view it as a playing style, do you lock into your first read, say an AJ, AB, Moss, and toss it up to him? Tyrod couldn't do that with Deonte, and was poor at making the next reads, and generally just dumped it to Clay or Shady, his best players. He had a somewhat correct ability to adapt to personnel, just not nearly in the tier that other quarterbacks do.

 

We get a playing style that adapts to lack of skill position players, we can get an upgrade to Tyrod. If I look at quarterbacks on bad offenses that do well, I'd argue guys like Mariota, Cousins, Smith have this style, making more with less. It's just to a lesser degree to when we talk about Rodgers, Brady. The flip side is QBs that thrive with stud weapons and may do better than Smith in the same situation. Andy Dalton (AJ McCarron thus far) and Matt Ryan have the premier WRs in the league, and maximize that talent, while Russell Wilson fails to use Graham to maximize his play because he's not the type to toss up jump balls. He's essentially a more cerebral, accurate, etc., better than every way than Tyrod, but ultimately has a similar style of play.

 

Either way works, we need to recognize what QBs in this draft are the Russ, Mariota, Cousins, Smith mold, because that's the situation we have.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Regarding the quarterbacks in the draft, we need to reach for a Baker, Jackson, Darnold because these are playing styles that won't be super dependent on the lack of skill position talent we currently have. I think some quarterbacks get by with middling receiver talents. Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers always turn water into wine every year.

 

The thing is though, drafting a Franchise QB is a long-term plan. Choosing a QB for what best fits your team right now is too short-sighted. Choose the best QB you can find, then get him players as you go. For, what is hopefully, a decade+ career with your team.

 

[Bing Bong]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The thing is though, drafting a Franchise QB is a long-term plan. Choosing a QB for what best fits your team right now is too short-sighted. Choose the best QB you can find, then get him players as you go. For, what is hopefully, a decade+ career with your team.

 

That's fine. But we need to tailor the franchise man's roster quick. The Rams clearly recognized Goff needed help in the WR position for year 2. He's that kind of quarterback and that's not a problem at all.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

That's fine. But we need to tailor the franchise man's roster quick. The Rams clearly recognized Goff needed help in the WR position for year 2. He's that kind of quarterback and that's not a problem at all.

 

Rams and (looks like) Bears did it the 2nd year for their guys. We have time, and cap room next year. 2-3 years to build around him. Plus WRs are constantly churning anyways, on every roster.

[Bing Bong]

 

Seems like the Panthers want that QB. Cam did fine with few weapons, I think that philosophy is carrying over here.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

It helps.