Making the case for Lamar Jackson

[Gugny]

Just now, 502Buffs said:

Your argument this entire time has been if a quarterback scores poorly on the wonderlic, or has a southern slang in interviews, he can't play quarterback. The hypocrisy is mind numbing.

 

My observation has been that since 2000 - every single QB who has scored under 16 has not been a successful NFL starter.  100% of them over the past 18 seasons.  Lamar Jackson scored a 13.  A !@#$ing 13.

 

I've never said anything about a "southern slang," with regard to predicting the level of one's success as an NFL QB.

 

We don't put words in others' mouths around here.

[502Buffs]

15 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Greg Gabriel "Louisville does not have a very complex offense" 

 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2018/02/22/greg-gabriel-the-evaluation-of-lamar-jackson-as-a-qb-prospect-is-ongoing/ac0uv9s/

 

i don't agree that it isn't a complex offense, I do agree, however with his point that Petrino hasn't exactly bred successful NFL QB's in the past.

[racketmaster]

26 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

Because he scored poorly on a 15 minute standardized test? With that logic let's make it a requirement that you have to post your SAT/ACT score with every reply. Doesn't matter that he ran the most complicated offense of all QB prospects (the same Erhardt/Perkins offense Daboll plans to run), ran the read option to perfection and has never had a disciplinary problem.

I think we should be careful about declaring who ran the most complicated offense in college. It's possible that Jackson was tasked with running the most complicated offense but we really don't know unless we were privy to meeting with the coaches of all the top qbs as well as the qbs themselves to determine what was asked of them and how well they knew the offense. For example, two quarterbacks might both be asked to run a WCO but because of their abilities, they may be operating within the offense differently. Were they permitted to audible? Could they and did they set protections? How much verbage is involved with their play calls? Allen ran the same offense that Carson Wentz ran in college but what was asked of them and how they operated in that offense might have been different. 

 

I see this a lot in posts "Jackson ran a complicated offense" and "The Erhardt/Perkins offense is the same that Tom Brady runs in New England".  And while this may be true, we don't actually know what this means. Did Petrino really challenge Jackson or was the offense simplified?  I don't know the answers to that question. I think it is hard for any fan to be able to seriously tell if Jackson's knowledge and responsibilities exceeded the other quarterbacks in this draft class. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by racketmaster

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just a friendly reminder:

 

13

[CommonCents]

4 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

 

i don't agree that it isn't a complex offense, I do agree, however with his point that Petrino hasn't exactly bred successful NFL QB's in the past.

I'm willing to listen why it is a complex offense. What makes you say that? Do you know the reads and concepts they use? Do you know who did the play calling? Was it simplified for Lamar? Did Jackson have checks or any ability to audible out of a play? 

 

Everyone types down Erkardt-Perkins like that means anything. Greg Gabriel is in the know, teach me otherwise. I'm listening.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Commonsense

[502Buffs]

6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

My observation has been that since 2000 - every single QB who has scored under 16 has not been a successful NFL starter.  100% of them over the past 18 seasons.  Lamar Jackson scored a 13.  A !@#$ing 13.

 

I've never said anything about a "southern slang," with regard to predicting the level of one's success as an NFL QB.

 

We don't put words in others' mouths around here.

I've been following the website for years. Just recently decided to start posting. I saw someone, thought it was you, criticize his interviewing skills. Eluding to your multiple "dumber than a box of rocks" accusations. I don't think it's fair to base that off of the wonderlic alone. It's a f'ing standardized test that has nothing to do with football. Out of all the 'unsuccessful' QB's in the past who scored lower than a 16, I guarantee you none of them have the tools or athleticism Lamar has. All I'm saying.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

I've been following the website for years. Just recently decided to start posting. I saw someone, thought it was you, criticize his interviewing skills. Eluding to your multiple "dumber than a box of rocks" accusations. I don't think it's fair to base that off of the wonderlic alone. It's a f'ing standardized test that has nothing to do with football. Out of all the 'unsuccessful' QB's in the past who scored lower than a 16, I guarantee you none of them have the tools or athleticism Lamar has. All I'm saying.

 

he scored a 13. I'd say that's a fair indicator of being dumber than a box of rocks.

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by joesixpack

[502Buffs]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

he scored a 13. I's day that's a fair indicator of being dumber than a box of rocks.

 

You've typed the number 13 at least 13 times in this post. It isn't lost on me I promise, but neither you or Gugny have been able to prove why that means he's a total idiot. When others have cited hall of fame QB's (who don't have the athletic tools of Lamar) who scored poorly on the test, all you say is THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Then you insult THEIR intelligence. Why? Who hurt you?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, 502Buffs said:

You've typed the number 13 at least 13 times in this post. It isn't lost on me I promise, but neither you or Gugny have been able to prove why that means he's a total idiot. When others have cited hall of fame QB's (who don't have the athletic tools of Lamar) who scored poorly on the test, all you say is THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Then you insult THEIR intelligence. Why? Who hurt you?

 

Because, every QB that people have cited played 30+ years ago.

Maybe you haven't noticed or you just don't understand the game is fundamentally different now than then. QBs need to process quickly. 13 ain't gonna cut it, sorry.

 

 

[502Buffs]

10 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

I'm willing to listen why it is a complex offense. What makes you say that? Do you know the reads and concepts they use? Do you know who did the playing? Did Jackson have checks or any ability to audible out of a play? 

 

Everyone types down Erkardt-Perkins like that means anything. Greg Gabriel is in the know, teach me otherwise. I'm listening.

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/5116/how-louisville-coach-bobby-petrino-maximizes-lamar-jackson-s-running-ability

 

I will say I've never seen Jackson audible or check out of a play, but I think that's because there are so many reads in each play already. There is no doubt whoever is coaching him will need to tailor their offense around his strengths, like any QB in any offense, as Petrino has done.

2 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because, every QB that people have cited played 30+ years ago.

Maybe you haven't noticed or you just don't understand the game is fundamentally different now than then. QBs need to process quickly. 13 ain't gonna cut it, sorry.

 

 

So a 13 means he can't process reads quickly? Have you ever seen the kid play? 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

If he was a CB, John, I'd be with you.

 

But he is (kind of) a QB.  Bona fide morons don't make good NFL QBs.

He is definately a QB

 

And one with huge upside.......he is a great plan B

4 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because, every QB that people have cited played 30+ years ago.

Maybe you haven't noticed or you just don't understand the game is fundamentally different now than then. QBs need to process quickly. 13 ain't gonna cut it, sorry.

 

 

You keep latching onto that number like your woobiee

 

Ill stick with his on field production.....which is considerable

[HappyDays]

36 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Greg Gabriel "Louisville does not have a very complex offense" 

 

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2018/02/22/greg-gabriel-the-evaluation-of-lamar-jackson-as-a-qb-prospect-is-ongoing/ac0uv9s/

 

Gabriel also said Peterman was going to be the next Kirk Cousins. His opinion on QBs is as meaningless as anyone.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, 502Buffs said:

So a 13 means he can't process reads quickly? Have you ever seen the kid play? 

That's exactly what I mean.

 

If the guy knows he'll be tested IN ADVANCE and can't manage to do the work to score well on it (or is too stupid to realize he can) then I want him nowhere near this team.

 

[CommonCents]

2 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/5116/how-louisville-coach-bobby-petrino-maximizes-lamar-jackson-s-running-ability

 

I will say I've never seen Jackson audible or check out of a play, but I think that's because there are so many reads in each play already. There is no doubt whoever is coaching him will need to tailor their offense around his strengths, like any QB in any offense, as Petrino has done.

He is super athletic no one is disputing that, a link to how Petrino catered his play calling towards Lamar's legs doesn't exactly convince me that he can process defenses and carve them up with his arm. 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Commonsense said:

He is super athletic no one is disputing that, a link to how Petrino catered his play calling towards Lamar's legs doesn't exactly convince me that he can process defenses and carve them up with his arm. 

 

^ this guy gets it.

 

 

[Gugny]

Just now, joesixpack said:

^ this guy gets it.

 

 

 

Well ... I mean ... it's common sense.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

You keep latching onto that number like your woobiee

 

Ill stick with his on field production.....which is considerable

Because, Lord Twatwaffle, it's germane. Intelligence in a QB is important in the NFL. Not so much when you're playing northwestern central kentucky state.

 

[CommonCents]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Gabriel also said Peterman was going to be the next Kirk Cousins. His opinion on QBs is as meaningless as anyone.

Oh and Mike Mayock liked Blaine Gabbert so he is a rock, right? These guys know the game and concepts better than us fans so I will defer to them on the complexity of play calls until I see evidence that says otherwise.

[502Buffs]

Just now, joesixpack said:

That's exactly what I mean.

 

If the guy knows he'll be tested IN ADVANCE and can't manage to do the work to score well on it (or is too stupid to realize he can) then I want him nowhere near this team.

 

I think he's been too busy trying to prove he's an NFL QB instead of a receiver (a position he's never played) by doing things like working on throwing mechanics, taking snaps under center, etc. to worry about some stupid math test GM's may or may not care about. I get why the score is concerning to you, but for the love of God, find another criticism to make because you've beaten this one into the ground.

[John from Riverside]

4 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

Because, Lord Twatwaffle, it's germane. Intelligence in a QB is important in the NFL. Not so much when you're playing northwestern central kentucky state.

 

Like I said

[racketmaster]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Gabriel also said Peterman was going to be the next Kirk Cousins. His opinion on QBs is as meaningless as anyone.

Cousins had 8 touchdowns and 10 interceptions during spot duty his first 2 years. I'm not banking on Peterman to be our franchise qb but I see no reason he can't reach the level of AJ McCaron. It is still very early in his career and we really should not make a definitive judgment on his career after 1 year of limited action. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, 502Buffs said:

I think he's been too busy trying to prove he's an NFL QB instead of a receiver (a position he's never played) by doing things like working on throwing mechanics, taking snaps under center, etc. to worry about some stupid math test GM's may or may not care about. I get why the score is concerning to you, but for the love of God, find another criticism to make because you've beaten this one into the ground.

 

Duly noted.

 

Hey, by the way, what's one of the most language-intensive things in all of sports?

 

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

He is super athletic no one is disputing that, a link to how Petrino catered his play calling towards Lamar's legs doesn't exactly convince me that he can process defenses and carve them up with his arm. 

 

His passing TDs tend to point another direction

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Oh and Mike Mayock liked Blaine Gabbert so he is a rock, right?

 

Right. You're catching on.

[502Buffs]

 

5 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

He is super athletic no one is disputing that, a link to how Petrino catered his play calling towards Lamar's legs doesn't exactly convince me that he can process defenses and carve them up with his arm. 

 

Will you dispute that his athleticism helps receivers get open? I have better things to do than sit here all day and try to convince you guys he can play. I tried to show he has all the tools in my original post. I'm about to close this to replies as the points are getting watered down on both ends. You have a very valid point, but like all the QBs in this draft IMO, he's a project and needs to be coached. Anyone who thinks he's incapable of that has yet to prove that to me. This roster has too many holes now to trade up for a QB unless you guys are fine with sucking for another 2-5 years which I am not. Have a good day and go Bills!

[CommonCents]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Right. You're catching on.

Shall we pull up your horrible takes on Carson Wentz? Then find mine on Mike Glennon? Then we can both be dismissed from the conversation and hit the bar?

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

His passing TDs tend to point another direction

Did Ty Detmer throw a lot of touchdowns? Rick Mirer? Vince Young? Oh what about Taj Boyd?

 

That means nothing.

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Shall we pull up your horrible takes on Carson Wentz? Then find mine on Mike Glennon? Then we can both be dismissed from the conversation and hit the bar?

Did Ty Detmer throw a lot of touchdowns? Rick Mirer? Vince Young? Oh what about Taj Boyd?

 

That means nothing.

OK

So then what should we be looking at when trying to project a NFL qb if we are not at least going to take a look at production?

 

If Lamar was more accurate he would be drafted at the top of the 1st.....EVERYONE of these QBs has got some sort of negative

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

OK

So then what should we be looking at when trying to project a NFL qb if we are not at least going to take a look at production?

 

If Lamar was more accurate he would be drafted at the top of the 1st.....EVERYONE of these QBs has got some sort of negative

 

But he's the only one who scored ridiculously low on the Wonderlic and has his mommy as his agent.  This dude has red flags all over the place, John.

[CommonCents]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

OK

So then what should we be looking at when trying to project a NFL qb if we are not at least going to take a look at production?

 

If Lamar was more accurate he would be drafted at the top of the 1st.....EVERYONE of these QBs has got some sort of negative

Right. Deciding which flaws are fatal is not that difficult. Can't fix stupid. Might be able to fix the accuracy and poor footwork though.

 

 

That's the concern and I said the same thing when the initial feedback from the combine was that Allen was a rock as well. He scored well on the wonderlic and I suppose that helps his case. Lamar struggled on whiteboards then bombed the wonderlic. That is the only insight we have into how smart these guys are and neither result was good. 

 

For his sake sake hopefully he proves everyone wrong. For my sanity I don't want another QB who can't understand the game and process it in under 3 seconds. 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

But he's the only one who scored ridiculously low on the Wonderlic and has his mommy as his agent.  This dude has red flags all over the place, John.

Red flags for off the field stuff......

 

By the way....I really dont consider loving his mommy to really be that much of a red flag.....he is sticking with who he trusts. 

 

I only care about one thing.....CAN THE KID PLAY FOOTBALL.....

 

....he can

.....he is uber talented both in arm and mobility

....he has gotten better EVERY YEAR and has room to grow further

....he comes out of college injury free

 

He is not my top choice because I want to see what a really accurate passer would look like under bills center.....but unlike many here I realize you cannot be locked in onto one player in a draft with 31 other NFL teams looking to improve themselves as well......I think Bean is trying to trade up....and I think he will not hurt the franchise in a attempt to do so with so much qb talent available....

[HappyDays]

19 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Shall we pull up your horrible takes on Carson Wentz? Then find mine on Mike Glennon? Then we can both be dismissed from the conversation and hit the bar?

 

The difference is my take will eventually be proven true 

Edited April 16, 2018 by HappyDays

[CommonCents]

6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Red flags for off the field stuff......

 

By the way....I really dont consider loving his mommy to really be that much of a red flag.....he is sticking with who he trusts. 

 

I only care about one thing.....CAN THE KID PLAY FOOTBALL.....

 

....he can

.....he is uber talented both in arm and mobility

....he has gotten better EVERY YEAR and has room to grow further

....he comes out of college injury free

 

He is not my top choice because I want to see what a really accurate passer would look like under bills center.....but unlike many here I realize you cannot be locked in onto one player in a draft with 31 other NFL teams looking to improve themselves as well......I think Bean is trying to trade up....and I think he will not hurt the franchise in a attempt to do so with so much qb talent available....

I think everyone is in the same boat. Some guys like one QB more than others but mostly it's just about getting a guy good enough to win with. The fear with sitting at 12 and taking Lamar is in two years we are sitting here saying he is fun to watch but he just isn't good enough. He really did himself a disservice by not hiring an agent and going unprepared. If he had scored and interviewed better it would make his selection more understandable.

 

FWIW when I heard Allen was a rock after the combine I labeled him as a do not touch. Then he aces the wonderlic and we can atleast determine that he has a brain, still worrying about the football part of things. Lamar missed that opportunity by scoring so low.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Red flags for off the field stuff......

 

By the way....I really dont consider loving his mommy to really be that much of a red flag.....he is sticking with who he trusts. 

 

I only care about one thing.....CAN THE KID PLAY FOOTBALL.....

 

....he can

.....he is uber talented both in arm and mobility

....he has gotten better EVERY YEAR and has room to grow further

....he comes out of college injury free

 

He is not my top choice because I want to see what a really accurate passer would look like under bills center.....but unlike many here I realize you cannot be locked in onto one player in a draft with 31 other NFL teams looking to improve themselves as well......I think Bean is trying to trade up....and I think he will not hurt the franchise in a attempt to do so with so much qb talent available....

I don't think he is uber talented but he might be a good uber driver in 3 years.

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I don't think he is uber talented but he might be a good uber driver in 3 years.

This of course is such a thoughtful post....please do post more.

[1billsfan]

58 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

But he's the only one who scored ridiculously low on the Wonderlic and has his mommy as his agent.  This dude has red flags all over the place, John.

 

You seem obsessed with Jackson’s wonderlic score. I could care less if he got a 13, go watch his unreal tape. Teams only care if the QB has the intelligence to handle the offense they’d be implementing, and whether or not he has the leadership qualities to become a long term franchise QB.

 

IMO Jackson has very high football intelligence. He makes decisions hyper-quickly, and seems to have a sixth sense during the course of plays. I predict he'll become the most beloved QB by his team in this draft. Jackson is a guy that other NFL players will want to play with and will want to be lead by.

 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, 1billsfan said:

 

You seem obsessed with Jackson’s wonderlic score. I could care less if he got a 13, go watch his unreal tape. Teams only care if the QB has the intelligence to handle the offense they’d be implementing, and whether or not he has the leadership qualities to become a long term franchise QB.

 

IMO Jackson has very high football intelligence. He makes decisions hyper-quickly, and seems to have a sixth sense during the course of plays. I predict he'll become the most beloved QB by his team in this draft. Jackson is a guy that other NFL players will want to play with and will want to be lead by.

 

 

Can I watch Tebow's unreal tape?  Then Vince Young's unreal tape?  How about Ryan Leaf's unreal tape, or Jamarcus Russell?

 

Great college QBs don't always (rarely, in fact) make great NFL QBs.

 

Great college QBs who aren't smart enough to break 16 on the wonderlic NEVER make good NFL QBs.

 

They're great in college because they're playing against defenses that have - MAYBE - one future NFL starter on the field at any given time.

 

Leaders don't hire mommy to be their agents.  And true NFL QB prospects don't need to take any time to prove to NFL teams that they're actually a QB.

[John from Riverside]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Can I watch Tebow's unreal tape?  Then Vince Young's unreal tape?  How about Ryan Leaf's unreal tape, or Jamarcus Russell?

 

Great college QBs don't always (rarely, in fact) make great NFL QBs.

 

Great college QBs who aren't smart enough to break 16 on the wonderlic NEVER make good NFL QBs.

 

They're great in college because they're playing against defenses that have - MAYBE - one future NFL starter on the field at any given time.

 

Leaders don't hire mommy to be their agents.  And true NFL QB prospects don't need to take any time to prove to NFL teams that they're actually a QB.

So why are we so high on the supposid top three if this is even the case?   Why not just draft where we draft and not give up our picks?

[1billsfan]

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Can I watch Tebow's unreal tape?  Then Vince Young's unreal tape?  How about Ryan Leaf's unreal tape, or Jamarcus Russell?

 

Great college QBs don't always (rarely, in fact) make great NFL QBs.

 

Great college QBs who aren't smart enough to break 16 on the wonderlic NEVER make good NFL QBs.

 

They're great in college because they're playing against defenses that have - MAYBE - one future NFL starter on the field at any given time.

 

Leaders don't hire mommy to be their agents.  And true NFL QB prospects don't need to take any time to prove to NFL teams that they're actually a QB.

 

What?! Where was that one ever written? If I were Jackson's team mate, having his Mom as his agent tells me I'd never have worry about him being tackled by a cop in the middle of the night.

 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Calling a stupid person stupid is a personal attack?  Color me guilty, then.

 

 

 

Well... yeah, you're guilty.  Glad you can admit that.

 

It's like if people in this thread called you a loser.  Just because you're proving in this thread you're a loser, it's still a personal attack.

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

My observation has been that since 2000 - every single QB who has scored under 16 has not been a successful NFL starter.  100% of them over the past 18 seasons.  Lamar Jackson scored a 13.  A !@#$ing 13.

 

I've never said anything about a "southern slang," with regard to predicting the level of one's success as an NFL QB.

 

We don't put words in others' mouths around here.

 

3 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Because, every QB that people have cited played 30+ years ago.

Maybe you haven't noticed or you just don't understand the game is fundamentally different now than then. QBs need to process quickly. 13 ain't gonna cut it, sorry.

 

https://footballiqscore.com/

Do us all a favor. 

 

1) Take the test right now with no practice.  I'm betting that's what Jackson did since he's probably the only high profile coming out in decades to not have an Agent who would force him to practice and prepare for the test itself.  The truth of the matter is that you can drastically improve your score on standardized tests with a  few simple test taking strategies.  It's often not indicative of intelligence or processing speed, but prior practice and proper test taking strategies.

 

and

 

2) Tell us which questions apply to being a QB on an NFL field in terms of executing an offensive playbook and reading defenses.

 

3 hours ago, joesixpack said:

That's exactly what I mean.

 

If the guy knows he'll be tested IN ADVANCE and can't manage to do the work to score well on it (or is too stupid to realize he can) then I want him nowhere near this team.

 

 

Maybe he just didn't think the test was worth a damn so he broke with convention and didn't prepare for the exam.

 

From the sounds of it, it's possible the kid (and his mother) is so sick and tired of being cajoled time and time again into trying out other positions like punt returner or WR when all he's wanted to be is a QB and he's had historic success at the position after the last couple of years that's he's just at a "take it or leave it," point.

 

He's going to be playing QB for a football team, he's not going to be a rocket scientist.  What's the point of a standardized test?

 

If you argue it's processing speed or ability to execute an NFL offense, he could just point to his college film over the last 2 years in an NFL offense against high-level competition.

Edited April 16, 2018 by transplantbillsfan