GoBills808 Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 What evidence of collusion has been presented that is NOT couched in unnamed sources citing unnamed methods? I think this speaks to the larger issue, namely that our intelligence agencies operate without direct (or even indirect) oversight and can function as an extrajudicial investigative branch of government with the capacity to do lasting harm to our democracy should they be politicized (which they certainly have given the impression of). I would posit that for the FBI to obtain their FISA warrant for Page seems the most concrete piece of 'evidence' in that there's a paper trail (or should be) at the DOJ and FBI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 11, 2017 Author Share Posted May 11, 2017 I think this speaks to the larger issue, namely that our intelligence agencies operate without direct (or even indirect) oversight and can function as an extrajudicial investigative branch of government with the capacity to do lasting harm to our democracy should they be politicized (which they certainly have given the impression of). I would posit that for the FBI to obtain their FISA warrant for Page seems the most concrete piece of 'evidence' in that there's a paper trail (or should be) at the DOJ and FBI. This is where I'm confused by your statement: In the first paragraph you (rightly, imo) point out the problem of an unchecked IC operating the largest and most advanced surveillance state the world has ever known. There's been ample evidence of the problems this can cause in our republic if left unchecked. If the IC is playing for themselves rather than the country, or playing for the oligarchs rather than the people, that's how democracy dies. We've seen examples of the abuse of power within these institutions from the leaks of Binney, Manning, and Snowden to the perjury of Clapper, Hayden and Brenner. We've seen evidence of how the systemic issues within these organizations can lead us to wage war under false pretenses. WikiLeaks has added plenty of factual evidence of malfeasance of this nature - and even they're playing one side, the information they've released has been 100% authentic and verified. So we're on the same page there... But then, in your next breath, you suggest that despite this history of the IC manipulating public discourse to serve their own agenda(s) with various tactics including phony evidence (WMD in Iraq, Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam for example) and disinformation campaigns, the fact that there were FISA warrants issued is proof enough that there is real evidence out there lurking somewhere. Somehow you're pinning your argument on secret warrants obtained from a court which operates completely removed from public purview and with zero oversight. How can you hold both those positions simultaneously without at least questioning whether or not you are being fed another story by an IC with a clear agenda? That's why I've taken the position that until we actually see evidence - and not just hear about it second hand from unnamed sources working within the IC - that there's no fire under that smoke. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying show us the evidence before working us into a frenzy. In this political climate, with the amount of leaks we've witnessed, I believe if there was actual evidence we would have seen it by now. Someone would have leaked something more substantial, or at the very least, men and women with skin in the game like Clapper, Hayden, Brennan, Feinstein et al would not be so open about saying there has been no evidence of collusion found. If you step back and look at when this new "Russia is the bad guy" narrative began: way back in the 2012 campaign, courtesy of the neocons backing Romney and long before Trump was a serious candidate, it starts to explain a lot of what's happening. Especially when you examine the escalation of the proxy wars in both the Ukraine and Syria and combine that with the neocons who migrated to HRC's campaign in 2015 and 2016 and how they shaped her platform... and suddenly the narrative starts to look more like one designed to sell a war she was promising to wage on their behalf than it does anything else. And as we've seen, when it comes to selling a war, there's NOTHING this country's institutions will not do to get the public behind them. Including lying, manipulating, and outright criminality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 Seth Rich, back in the news: http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/254852337-story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Seth Rich, back in the news: http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/254852337-story This was so obvious to anyone paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) This was so obvious to anyone paying attention. 100% agree... And makes you wonder why the Washington Post and NYT decided today was the time to drop the Russian story (they had it last week... and of course there's this: http://archive.is/M7aOiwhich is just one of many examples of how they covered Rich's story originally - note: his family paid for the investigation that's now breaking, clearly it wasn't 'painfully obvious to his family that Seth was the victim of a botched robbery".). And by "makes you wonder", I mean the opposite. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=JacShITWs-8 Tomorrow morning(?), the investigator is releasing his report with evidence (allegedly). No one will be talking about it though, because everyone will be focused on what Trump said to the Russians... ...This is going to be a great example of how the narrative is manipulated (or attempted to be manipulated) by the IC in this country. Reminder: This was how Assange reacted to the Seth Rich murder, he all but admits Rich was his source and offers a reward for information: This was before the power was cut to the embassy and JA was (potentially) compromised. **************** Un-related to Rich, I'm stashing this article here: http://www.digitaljournal.com/science/40-000-year-old-bracelet-from-extinct-human-species-discovered/article/432798 Edited May 16, 2017 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Seth Rich, back in the news: http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/254852337-story Yes, let's see what kind of coverage this gets.... This was so obvious to anyone paying attention.If it's so obvious, then why so little coverage by the MSM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Yes, let's see what kind of coverage this gets.... If it's so obvious, then why so little coverage by the MSM? The answer rather obvious also. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Yes, let's see what kind of coverage this gets....If it's so obvious, then why so little coverage by the MSM? Because it's not a Deep State coverup, but a FoB coverup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Seth Rich, back in the news: http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/254852337-story This is conspiracy nonsense. It's exactly one person claiming this, Rod Wheeler - a Fox News contributor who made sure to plug his own segment in the interview. He also claimed that the Rich family hired him, which was already refuted by the family this morning: https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexcampbell/seth-rich-family-refutes-report Don't believe every random crackpot you hear on television. Before you know it random yahoos will be sending letters to the family blasting them for accepting money from the DNC to cover up their son's murder, which is what happened to Newtown, CT families when a bunch of ridiculous conspiracy theories started about that horrible tragedy. Sometimes tragedies just happen. Attempted robberies turn into murder. And then some idiot with a show tries to politicize it. Don't be so gullible. Anyone who seriously believes that guy is going to release smoking gun evidence this morning is smoking something of their own. Edited May 16, 2017 by HappyDays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Yes, let's see what kind of coverage this gets.... If it's so obvious, then why so little coverage by the MSM? How much MSM do you absorb daily? Are we talking a half dozen hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 If it's so obvious, then why so little coverage by the MSM? Oh, man, that's funny, You don't get near the credit you deserve for your sense of humor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 This is conspiracy nonsense. It's exactly one person claiming this, Rod Wheeler - a Fox News contributor who made sure to plug his own segment in the interview. He also claimed that the Rich family hired him, which was already refuted by the family this morning: https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexcampbell/seth-rich-family-refutes-report Don't believe every random crackpot you hear on television. Before you know it random yahoos will be sending letters to the family blasting them for accepting money from the DNC to cover up their son's murder, which is what happened to Newtown, CT families when a bunch of ridiculous conspiracy theories started about that horrible tragedy. Sometimes tragedies just happen. Attempted robberies turn into murder. And then some idiot with a show tries to politicize it. Don't be so gullible. Anyone who seriously believes that guy is going to release smoking gun evidence this morning is smoking something of their own. As the article states, the family rejects Wheeler's claims because they have not seen any of the evidence. Certainly understandable, but it doesn't mean Wheeler's claims are false at this point. Hopefully we'll find out soon enough. From my standpoint, ignoring the wild claim about why he was murdered, the claim that Rich was the source of the DNC leaks is as credible as Russia hacked the DNC (and used Wikileaks to influence the election). Unfortunately, the MSM is too invested in the "Russia did it" claim to seriously investigate the alternative. Rightly or wrongly, it appears there is a concerted effort to de-legitimize Trump based on this issue. It has also been used by Hillary's camp as the excuse for her loss. Until THIS issue is resolved, it will continue to fuel these wacky conspiracy theories I love so much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 This is conspiracy nonsense. It's exactly one person claiming this, Rod Wheeler - a Fox News contributor who made sure to plug his own segment in the interview. He also claimed that the Rich family hired him, which was already refuted by the family this morning: Your facts are wrong. Wheeler was hired by the family, he is not the only one who makes this claim. Assange himself has all but confirmed it last summer. If you paid attention to this story as it broke you would understand this and the pressure being exerted on the family since the news hit. The "family spokesman" you're citing is a man named Brad Bauman is a DNC spokesman: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763852003093217280?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fnews%2F2017-05-16%2Fmurdered-dnc-staffer-seth-rich-shared-44000-emails-wikileaks Don't believe every random crackpot you hear on television. Before you know it random yahoos will be sending letters to the family blasting them for accepting money from the DNC to cover up their son's murder, which is what happened to Newtown, CT families when a bunch of ridiculous conspiracy theories started about that horrible tragedy. Sometimes tragedies just happen. Attempted robberies turn into murder. And then some idiot with a show tries to politicize it. Don't be so gullible. Anyone who seriously believes that guy is going to release smoking gun evidence this morning is smoking something of their own. The DNC wouldn't turn over the servers to the FBI. Ever ask yourself why? Could it be that the metadata and information on those servers could be used by the FBI to link the 44 thousand emails Rich leaked to wikileaks to those servers, verifying him as the leaker. Nah. The DNC just didn't trust the FBI to look at their servers. As the article states, the family rejects Wheeler's claims because they have not seen any of the evidence. Certainly understandable, but it doesn't mean Wheeler's claims are false at this point. Hopefully we'll find out soon enough. From my standpoint, ignoring the wild claim about why he was murdered, the claim that Rich was the source of the DNC leaks is as credible as Russia hacked the DNC (and used Wikileaks to influence the election). Unfortunately, the MSM is too invested in the "Russia did it" claim to seriously investigate the alternative. Rightly or wrongly, it appears there is a concerted effort to de-legitimize Trump based on this issue. It has also been used by Hillary's camp as the excuse for her loss. Until THIS issue is resolved, it will continue to fuel these wacky conspiracy theories I love so much... Remember this too... who was just hired by the Washington Post? And who, if Rich was murdered for leaking, more than likely ordered the hit? Ah, right. This guy: The same guy who tweeted this when Comey was fired: "Didn't you know you're supposed to wait until Saturday night to massacre people investigating you?" https://twitter.com/johnpodesta/status/862063838300164097?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com%2F2017%2F05%2F10%2Fhillarys-campaign-chairman-attacked-comey-in-the-morning-outraged-over-massacre-hours-later%2F When was Rich killed? On a Saturday night. When did the Washington Post release the Russian story yesterday? Almost exactly one hour after the Seth Rich "news" broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Your facts are wrong. Wheeler was hired by the family, he is not the only one who makes this claim. Assange himself has all but confirmed it last summer. If you paid attention to this story as it broke you would understand this and the pressure being exerted on the family since the news hit. The "family spokesman" you're citing is a man named Brad Bauman is a DNC spokesman: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763852003093217280?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fnews%2F2017-05-16%2Fmurdered-dnc-staffer-seth-rich-shared-44000-emails-wikileaks The DNC wouldn't turn over the servers to the FBI. Ever ask yourself why? Could it be that the metadata and information on those servers could be used by the FBI to link the 44 thousand emails Rich leaked to wikileaks to those servers, verifying him as the leaker. Nah. The DNC just didn't trust the FBI to look at their servers. Remember this too... who was just hired by the Washington Post? And who, if Rich was murdered for leaking, more than likely ordered the hit? Ah, right. This guy: The same guy who tweeted this when Comey was fired: "Didn't you know you're supposed to wait until Saturday night to massacre people investigating you?" https://twitter.com/johnpodesta/status/862063838300164097?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com%2F2017%2F05%2F10%2Fhillarys-campaign-chairman-attacked-comey-in-the-morning-outraged-over-massacre-hours-later%2F When was Rich killed? On a Saturday night. When did the Washington Post release the Russian story yesterday? Almost exactly one hour after the Seth Rich "news" broke. Your first fact is wrong. The family didn't hire Wheeler. He lied to the reporter when he told her that they did. Everything else in his story crumbles under that. Sorry I don't have time to debunk every little piece of evidence you think you have. It would take all day and you wouldn't care. There would be more sources on this by now. Learn to filter out bad information. Tell you what - if it turns out the family did hire him I'll give this story more attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 Your first fact is wrong. The family didn't hire Wheeler. He lied to the reporter when he told her that they did. This is incorrect and spin applied after the fact to confuse you. Wheeler was not hired by his parents, he absolutely was hired by Rich's family (do some archive searching, it's all there in the reports from last summer). They're trying to trip you up with linguistic tricks. Sorry I don't have time to debunk every little piece of evidence you think you have. It would take all day and you wouldn't care. There would be more sources on this by now. Learn to filter out bad information. What's hilarious is you're telling me to learn how to filter out bad information while simultaneously admitting you don't have the time nor the inclination to look into the story yourself. Meaning, you're accepting the MSM version of this story as fact without doing any due diligence on your part. That's called irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 This is incorrect and spin applied after the fact to confuse you. Wheeler was not hired by his parents, he absolutely was hired by Rich's family (do some archive searching, it's all there in the reports from last summer). They're trying to trip you up with linguistic tricks. What's hilarious is you're telling me to learn how to filter out bad information while simultaneously admitting you don't have the time nor the inclination to look into the story yourself. Meaning, you're accepting the MSM version of this story as fact without doing any due diligence on your part. That's called irony. These conspiracies all have the same MO. Half-truths, excuses for why things don't match up, and a certainty that the mainstream media must be covering it up. Of course the important caveat is lack of real evidence. In the original interview Wheeler said new evidence would come to light this morning on his Fox News segment. Shockingly it did not! And it never will. The police and the family all know the conspiracy is BS. Only some bloggers think they've uncovered a massive conspiracy. It's no different than the thousands of other ones that plague the internet. Come back to me when there is actual evidence, not dots that youre choosing to connect because they fit the narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 These conspiracies all have the same MO. Half-truths, excuses for why things don't match up, and a certainty that the mainstream media must be covering it up. Of course the important caveat is lack of real evidence. In the original interview Wheeler said new evidence would come to light this morning on his Fox News segment. Shockingly it did not! And it never will. The police and the family all know the conspiracy is BS. Only some bloggers think they've uncovered a massive conspiracy. It's no different than the thousands of other ones that plague the internet. Come back to me when there is actual evidence, not dots that youre choosing to connect because they fit the narrative. Easy to say when you admit you don't have the time nor inclination to filter out the bad information yourself. You're showing how little you've followed this story since it broke, and exposing your own biases. It's not just "some bloggers" who think this, Assange himself all but confirmed it. The only ones in this story pushing half truths that don't match up are the DNC and the MSM. But you'd know that if you took your own advice about filtering out bad information;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Seth Rich, back in the news: http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/254852337-story I believe like 25% of what Assange says on a good day. He has an agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Easy to say when you admit you don't have the time nor inclination to filter out the bad information yourself. You're showing how little you've followed this story since it broke, and exposing your own biases. It's not just "some bloggers" who think this, Assange himself all but confirmed it. The only ones in this story pushing half truths that don't match up are the DNC and the MSM. But you'd know that if you took your own advice about filtering out bad information;) Remember when Assange kept a bunch of his followers up all night after promising supposed documents that would put Hillary in prison? And then the documents never came? Fool me once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 16, 2017 Author Share Posted May 16, 2017 I believe like 25% of what Assange says on a good day. He has an agenda. He does. No one is saying he doesn't. And yet the "spokesman" for Rich's parents whom everyone is quoting is a DNC operative with a clear agenda as well. We are in the middle of an information war, the first of its kind. The only way through is to use your own discernment, and not to rely on a singular source for your news and information. Remember when Assange kept a bunch of his followers up all night after promising supposed documents that would put Hillary in prison? And then the documents never came? Fool me once... Remember when the power was cut to the embassy and Assange was taken off the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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