Mr. WEO Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 Right, and I stand by that your interpretation is incorrect. Just like a team can't fine for lousy play even if it is "detrimental to the club" I'm not interpreting it. Simply showing that the teams absolutely are allowed to fine or suspend players. You can't use an obviously poor example ("lousy play") to negate the right of the team to punish its own players. It would be much easier to apply the issue we are discussing--repeated lack of control on the field and on the sidelines (critical penalties involving personal fouls, swearing at refs) which has clearly been detrimental to the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) I'm not interpreting it. Simply showing that the teams absolutely are allowed to fine or suspend players. You can't use an obviously poor example ("lousy play") to negate the right of the team to punish its own players. It would be much easier to apply the issue we are discussing--repeated lack of control on the field and on the sidelines (critical penalties involving personal fouls, swearing at refs) which has clearly been detrimental to the team. I'll lob this one at you: show me an example of a team doing that. Your using it as an unrestricted catch all, while in other circumstances you would (and have) argued that it's restricted. I'm pretty sure that they can bench a guy all they want but they aren't suspending him without pay or fining him for penalty flags. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if you find something contrary Edited October 11, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 He made some huge plays today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I'll lob this one at you: show me an example of a team doing that. Your using it as an unrestricted catch all, while in other circumstances you would (and have) argued that it's restricted. I'm pretty sure that they can bench a guy all they want but they aren't suspending him without pay or fining him for penalty flags. I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if you find something contrary This issue is not whether teams have done, but whether they are allowed to under the CBA. They are, clearly. To answer your question, as you know the vast majority of suspendable/fineable infractions are adjudicated through the league, so there is rarely ever a case where the team would need step in where the league has not. Because such a precedent may not exist therefore makes no difference. But if a guy gets repeated personal fouls, unsportsmanlikes week after week and it's costing his team games--clearly this is detrimental to the team and a team would absolutely be within its rights to decide to fine him or suspend him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 This issue is not whether teams have done, but whether they are allowed to under the CBA. They are, clearly. To answer your question, as you know the vast majority of suspendable/fineable infractions are adjudicated through the league, so there is rarely ever a case where the team would need step in where the league has not. Because such a precedent may not exist therefore makes no difference. But if a guy gets repeated personal fouls, unsportsmanlikes week after week and it's costing his team games--clearly this is detrimental to the team and a team would absolutely be within its rights to decide to fine him or suspend him. They sat him for half a game last year and it didn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 They sat him for half a game last year and it didn't help. Half our skill players sit in the whirlpool every Sunday at game time. So what? Take his money, don't give him a paid spa day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 This issue is not whether teams have done, but whether they are allowed to under the CBA. They are, clearly. To answer your question, as you know the vast majority of suspendable/fineable infractions are adjudicated through the league, so there is rarely ever a case where the team would need step in where the league has not. Because such a precedent may not exist therefore makes no difference. But if a guy gets repeated personal fouls, unsportsmanlikes week after week and it's costing his team games--clearly this is detrimental to the team and a team would absolutely be within its rights to decide to fine him or suspend him. Name a case where a team has fined or suspended a player for penalties or poor play? As far as I know a team is not able to fine a player for hurting his team with undisciplined play! A team could sit the player or may make the player inactive. A team can cut a player but contract obligations will still have to be met. But a team can not fine a player for poor play. If there is an example in which you can cite supporting your position I will acknowledge that I am wrong. The below quote is a clause in the standard player contract. The recourse to a non-contributing player or a player whose performance is detrimental to the team is releasing the player, not fining the player. You can fine a player for not showing up or being late to report but there is nothing in the contract that allows the organization to fine a player for inadequate play. "11. SKILL, PERFORMANCE AND CONDUCT. Player understands that he is competing with other players for a position on Club’s roster within the applicable player limits. If at any time, in the sole judgement of Club, Player’s skill or performance has been unsatisfactory as compared with that of other players competing for positions on Club’s roster, or if Player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate this contract. In addition, during the period any salary cap is legally in effect, this contract may be terminated if, in Club’s opinion, Player is anticipated to make less of a contribution to Club’s ability to compete on the playing field than another player or players who Club intends to sign or attempts to sign, or another player or players who is or are already on Club’s roster, and for whom Club needs room." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm telling you Hughes has a mental illness. He's a psychopath. He has no ability to control himself. He reminds me of Tyson. Tyson? Really? Drama queens on TBD get a grip. Tyson is a convicted rapist and has threatened to eat people's children, bitten a man's ear off... want to add to the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Name a case where a team has fined or suspended a player for penalties or poor play? As far as I know a team is not able to fine a player for hurting his team with undisciplined play! A team could sit the player or may make the player inactive. A team can cut a player but contract obligations will still have to be met. But a team can not fine a player for poor play. If there is an example in which you can cite supporting your position I will acknowledge that I am wrong. The below quote is a clause in the standard player contract. The recourse to a non-contributing player or a player whose performance is detrimental to the team is releasing the player, not fining the player. You can fine a player for not showing up or being late to report but there is nothing in the contract that allows the organization to fine a player for inadequate play. "11. SKILL, PERFORMANCE AND CONDUCT. Player understands that he is competing with other players for a position on Club’s roster within the applicable player limits. If at any time, in the sole judgement of Club, Player’s skill or performance has been unsatisfactory as compared with that of other players competing for positions on Club’s roster, or if Player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate this contract. In addition, during the period any salary cap is legally in effect, this contract may be terminated if, in Club’s opinion, Player is anticipated to make less of a contribution to Club’s ability to compete on the playing field than another player or players who Club intends to sign or attempts to sign, or another player or players who is or are already on Club’s roster, and for whom Club needs room." John you may be a bit late to the argument, but I covered this and quoted the relevant rule: "Section 3. Uniformity: (a) Discipline will be imposed uniformly within a Club on all players for the same offense; however, if the Club’s published list of discipline imposes fines for designated offenses that are less than the limits set by the maximum schedule set forth in Section 1 above, the Club may specify the events which create an escalation of the discipline, not to exceed such maximum limits, provided the formula for escalation is uniform in its application. Nothing in this Section 3 shall preclude any Club from imposing a fine and/or a suspension without pay for conduct detrimental to the Club, as set forth in Section 1(a) above, in any case in which the same player has committed repeated offenses in the same League Year, whether or not the fines imposed for the player’s prior offenses were escalated as described in the immediately preceding sentence of this Section; provided, however, that the NFLPA expressly reserves the right to challenge the imposition of such discipline for conduct detrimental to the Club based upon the absence of just cause and/or any other allowable bases for opposing discipline." Again, since most offenses are detailed and covered byt the league, teams are allowed to decide what other penalties to fine for. This has nothing to do with "bad play", but instead bad conduct. Teams have taken game checks from players simply for things that they said off the field. It should be just as easy to penalize them for repeatedly doing stupid and detrimental things on field despite warnings to stop by the team. Edited October 12, 2015 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) John you may be a bit late to the argument, but I covered this and quoted the relevant rule: Again, since most offenses are detailed and covered byt the league, teams are allowed to decide what other penalties to fine for. This has nothing to do with "bad play", but instead bad conduct. Teams have taken game checks from players simply for things that they said off the field. It should be just as easy to penalize them for repeatedly doing stupid and detrimental things on field despite warnings to stop by the team. I did come in late but I still haven't found a case where a team financially penalized a player for poor play. Without a doubt players have been financially penalized for poor conduct and reporting issues but I have not found a case where a player has been finded for committing too many penalties or poor play on the field. If you can cite an example on this issue I would appreciate it. If I'm not responding to the issue then I would appreciate it if you would bring it to my attention that I am out of touch with central issue of this discussion. It doesn't take much to befuddle me! Edited October 12, 2015 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I did come in late but I still haven't found a case where a team financially penalized a player for poor play. Without a doubt players have been financially penalized for poor conduct and reporting issues but I have not found a case where a player has been finded for committing too many penalties or poor play on the field. If you can cite an example on this issue I would appreciate it. If I'm not responding to the issue then I would appreciate it if you would bring it to my attention that I am out of touch with central issue of this discussion. It doesn't take much to befuddle me! No one is talking about penalizing poor play John. I know of no examples of fines for being a persistent bonehead on the field, but the CBA would allow for a team to fine a player for it. That is all I have been saying over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 No one is talking about penalizing poor play John. I know of no examples of fines for being a persistent bonehead on the field, but the CBA would allow for a team to fine a player for it. That is all I have been saying over and over. Penalties on the field are poor play the same as any other mental lapses. On the field and off the field incidents are treated differently. The closest to what you are arguing I've found is a clause that a player can be fined for ejection (whole different beast than a 15 yarder and even that is limited to 20k) Essentially you are arguing that ejection is capped at 20k but that personal fouls can be multi game suspensions under conduct detrimental. You surely see the disconnect there, even if it turns out accurate. Not to mention the lack of any examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 He made some huge plays today! just watched NFL game pass 2 solo tackles, zero sacks, 1 qb hit frequently single blocked by TE habit of turning his back to blocker. missed several tackles by not wrapping up. not once did he bull rush the OT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Penalties on the field are poor play the same as any other mental lapses. On the field and off the field incidents are treated differently. The closest to what you are arguing I've found is a clause that a player can be fined for ejection (whole different beast than a 15 yarder and even that is limited to 20k) Essentially you are arguing that ejection is capped at 20k but that personal fouls can be multi game suspensions under conduct detrimental. You surely see the disconnect there, even if it turns out accurate. Not to mention the lack of any examples. I'm saying that the Bills are allowed to fine a player for serial poor decisions regarding self control (not "mental lapses"...) on the field (you keep linking it to poor play to stretch it to your point--it's not "poor play" as anyone would typically define that). That they haven't it does not disprove that they can. They simply can and I suggested that they should. The team is allowed to determine what is detrimental and the player/NFLPA is allowed to appeal it. It's clearly an issue of conduct and it's clearly detrimental if persistent. That a team has not had reason to exercise a bargained for right does not make that right nonexistent. Edited October 12, 2015 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Hughes two huge plays They certainly weren’t the only plays turned in by Jerry Hughes on Sunday, but his two most important came on back-to-back plays in crunch time when the defense needed a stop to try and let their offense kill the clock. Buffalo had just gone up 14-13 with 5:25 left in the game. The Bills defense thought they had the stop they were looking for when Corey Graham separated Justin Hunter from the football on a pass over the middle. But a flag came in late charging Graham with unnecessary roughness. How many flags did Hughes draw on Taylor Lewan? It was at least two from my recollection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Hughes two huge plays How many flags did Hughes draw on Taylor Lewan? It was at least two from my recollection. broadcast mentioned 2 or 3 penalties on Lewan trying to block Hughes Edited October 12, 2015 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 broadcast mentioned 2 or 3 penalties on Lewan trying to block Hughes lewan was called for 3 penalties, all against hughes. 1st qtr 2:33 holding 2nd qtr 0:30 illegal hands to face 4th qtr 14:17 illegal hands to face (declined) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 No one is talking about penalizing poor play John. I know of no examples of fines for being a persistent bonehead on the field, but the CBA would allow for a team to fine a player for it. That is all I have been saying over and over. No one is talking about penalizing poor play John. I know of no examples of fines for being a persistent bonehead on the field,but the CBA would allow for a team to fine a player for it. That is all I have been saying over and over. Usually when you make a point it is clear whether one agrees with it is altogether another issue. But I still don't understand your position that the CBA would allow for a player to be fined for repeated bonehead plays when it has never occurred. If you go back for half a decade and can't cite one example where it has occurred then it is strong evidence (to me) that it is not allowable under the CBA. In your post #89 you cited clause # 3 to support your position. My interpretation of that clause is that it doesn't apply to your position. So I can say with above average confidence that you are wrong on your take on this issue. Not that it is a big deal. Condider this low level quibbling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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