GunnerBill Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 The Bills organization is responsible for stunting his development and "ruining" him? It's said on here every day. I still have no idea what that means. First they let him play. Then they benched him. I am at a loss. What else were they supposed to do? Because you always presume that the people making this point are making it to defend EJ when the majority of us are doing nothing of the sort. If you think that the right way to develop a rookie Quarterback is with no vet around, no QB coach and a rookie OC whose previous NFL experience was as a quality control coach and then to rush him back from knee injuries not once but twice whilst placing a woeful offensive line infront of him then I don't know what to tell you. If you think basically giving him a free pass throughout training camp in year two to then turn around and say "actually we are moving on" after 4 games of the regular season is the right way to develop a young Quarterback then again - I don't know what to tell you. EJ might have failed anyway... but the way the Bills handled him through his first 2 years in the league set him up for failure and any rookie Quarterback coming in and requiring development would have found things mighty tough. A generational Andrew Luck type might have been ok but other than that I think the outcome would have been the same. And it is not the first time the Bills have completely messed up their handling of young Quarterbacks, I feel like it is history repeated. Others may well say, and I'm sure they will, that the guys we drafted were not good enough in the first place... probably so... but whether it is Losman, Edwards or EJ we are talking about it has been a story of botched development, poor coaching and horrific lines that lead to injuries at crucial development stages. Whoever comes next I hope we set up with a chance to succeed, because I have to say I feel sorry for all 3 of those guys. And before you accuse me of it I am not an EJ defender. I don't quite think he is as bad as some on here but actually I have often agreed with your analysis of his game... but I insist it is placed in its proper context not because I love EJ and I want him to be our Quarterback but because it is important as a fan base that we recognise the pattern that is repeating here and it is more than just drafting the wrong guys - the desperation around our team has led to a series of botched QB development plans in a rush to try and prove something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffaloed in Pa Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Because you always presume that the people making this point are making it to defend EJ when the majority of us are doing nothing of the sort. If you think that the right way to develop a rookie Quarterback is with no vet around, no QB coach and a rookie OC whose previous NFL experience was as a quality control coach and then to rush him back from knee injuries not once but twice whilst placing a woeful offensive line infront of him then I don't know what to tell you. If you think basically giving him a free pass throughout training camp in year two to then turn around and say "actually we are moving on" after 4 games of the regular season is the right way to develop a young Quarterback then again - I don't know what to tell you. EJ might have failed anyway... but the way the Bills handled him through his first 2 years in the league set him up for failure and any rookie Quarterback coming in and requiring development would have found things mighty tough. A generational Andrew Luck type might have been ok but other than that I think the outcome would have been the same. And it is not the first time the Bills have completely messed up their handling of young Quarterbacks, I feel like it is history repeated. Others may well say, and I'm sure they will, that the guys we drafted were not good enough in the first place... probably so... but whether it is Losman, Edwards or EJ we are talking about it has been a story of botched development, poor coaching and horrific lines that lead to injuries at crucial development stages. Whoever comes next I hope we set up with a chance to succeed, because I have to say I feel sorry for all 3 of those guys. And before you accuse me of it I am not an EJ defender. I don't quite think he is as bad as some on here but actually I have often agreed with your analysis of his game... but I insist it is placed in its proper context not because I love EJ and I want him to be our Quarterback but because it is important as a fan base that we recognise the pattern that is repeating here and it is more than just drafting the wrong guys - the desperation around our team has led to a series of botched QB development plans in a rush to try and prove something. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Because you always presume that the people making this point are making it to defend EJ when the majority of us are doing nothing of the sort. If you think that the right way to develop a rookie Quarterback is with no vet around, no QB coach and a rookie OC whose previous NFL experience was as a quality control coach and then to rush him back from knee injuries not once but twice whilst placing a woeful offensive line infront of him then I don't know what to tell you. If you think basically giving him a free pass throughout training camp in year two to then turn around and say "actually we are moving on" after 4 games of the regular season is the right way to develop a young Quarterback then again - I don't know what to tell you. EJ might have failed anyway... but the way the Bills handled him through his first 2 years in the league set him up for failure and any rookie Quarterback coming in and requiring development would have found things mighty tough. A generational Andrew Luck type might have been ok but other than that I think the outcome would have been the same. And it is not the first time the Bills have completely messed up their handling of young Quarterbacks, I feel like it is history repeated. Others may well say, and I'm sure they will, that the guys we drafted were not good enough in the first place... probably so... but whether it is Losman, Edwards or EJ we are talking about it has been a story of botched development, poor coaching and horrific lines that lead to injuries at crucial development stages. Whoever comes next I hope we set up with a chance to succeed, because I have to say I feel sorry for all 3 of those guys. And before you accuse me of it I am not an EJ defender. I don't quite think he is as bad as some on here but actually I have often agreed with your analysis of his game... but I insist it is placed in its proper context not because I love EJ and I want him to be our Quarterback but because it is important as a fan base that we recognise the pattern that is repeating here and it is more than just drafting the wrong guys - the desperation around our team has led to a series of botched QB development plans in a rush to try and prove something. Good post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Because you always presume that the people making this point are making it to defend EJ when the majority of us are doing nothing of the sort. If you think that the right way to develop a rookie Quarterback is with no vet around, no QB coach and a rookie OC whose previous NFL experience was as a quality control coach and then to rush him back from knee injuries not once but twice whilst placing a woeful offensive line infront of him then I don't know what to tell you. If you think basically giving him a free pass throughout training camp in year two to then turn around and say "actually we are moving on" after 4 games of the regular season is the right way to develop a young Quarterback then again - I don't know what to tell you. EJ might have failed anyway... but the way the Bills handled him through his first 2 years in the league set him up for failure and any rookie Quarterback coming in and requiring development would have found things mighty tough. A generational Andrew Luck type might have been ok but other than that I think the outcome would have been the same. And it is not the first time the Bills have completely messed up their handling of young Quarterbacks, I feel like it is history repeated. Others may well say, and I'm sure they will, that the guys we drafted were not good enough in the first place... probably so... but whether it is Losman, Edwards or EJ we are talking about it has been a story of botched development, poor coaching and horrific lines that lead to injuries at crucial development stages. Whoever comes next I hope we set up with a chance to succeed, because I have to say I feel sorry for all 3 of those guys. And before you accuse me of it I am not an EJ defender. I don't quite think he is as bad as some on here but actually I have often agreed with your analysis of his game... but I insist it is placed in its proper context not because I love EJ and I want him to be our Quarterback but because it is important as a fan base that we recognise the pattern that is repeating here and it is more than just drafting the wrong guys - the desperation around our team has led to a series of botched QB development plans in a rush to try and prove something. factual rebuttals won't get you far with the "EJ stands no chance" crowd imo I was never real was happy with Marone. I felt he just didn't care by seeing him standing on the sideline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Dude I said YOU don't know what it means, not me. BuffaloBob, you're fighting a losing battle here, trust me. emulating Fire Chan isn't helping your cause... unless you ARE Fire Chan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Because you always presume that the people making this point are making it to defend EJ when the majority of us are doing nothing of the sort. If you think that the right way to develop a rookie Quarterback is with no vet around, no QB coach and a rookie OC whose previous NFL experience was as a quality control coach and then to rush him back from knee injuries not once but twice whilst placing a woeful offensive line infront of him then I don't know what to tell you. If you think basically giving him a free pass throughout training camp in year two to then turn around and say "actually we are moving on" after 4 games of the regular season is the right way to develop a young Quarterback then again - I don't know what to tell you. EJ might have failed anyway... but the way the Bills handled him through his first 2 years in the league set him up for failure and any rookie Quarterback coming in and requiring development would have found things mighty tough. A generational Andrew Luck type might have been ok but other than that I think the outcome would have been the same. And it is not the first time the Bills have completely messed up their handling of young Quarterbacks, I feel like it is history repeated. Others may well say, and I'm sure they will, that the guys we drafted were not good enough in the first place... probably so... but whether it is Losman, Edwards or EJ we are talking about it has been a story of botched development, poor coaching and horrific lines that lead to injuries at crucial development stages. Whoever comes next I hope we set up with a chance to succeed, because I have to say I feel sorry for all 3 of those guys. And before you accuse me of it I am not an EJ defender. I don't quite think he is as bad as some on here but actually I have often agreed with your analysis of his game... but I insist it is placed in its proper context not because I love EJ and I want him to be our Quarterback but because it is important as a fan base that we recognise the pattern that is repeating here and it is more than just drafting the wrong guys - the desperation around our team has led to a series of botched QB development plans in a rush to try and prove something. I appreciate you being one of the first to elaborate about this vague "lack of development" concept. Well I would agree that the conditions for him may not have been ideal to succeed, a) it wasn't really the Bills' fault as they brought in Kolb to sort of mentor him and b) the Bills offensive line was one of the very best in football in 2012- no one could have seen their regression under Marrone coming the way it did. I would argue that all of these excuses (and they are excuses) are superseded by the fact that he simply has not looked sharp throwing the football in camp the last two years (he was no doubt worse last year than this year). I'm talking in 7 on 7 drills where it doesn't matter who your coach is or who is on your offensive line. If he looked sharp throwing the football in practice and then struggled in game situations, I would be more inclined to go along with what you're saying and question why his success was/is unable to translate to game situations. Fair? emulating Fire Chan isn't helping your cause... unless you ARE Fire Chan I think me and Chan's raging religious debate in the shoutbox a few months back would discredit your theory. factual rebuttals won't get you far with the "EJ stands no chance" crowd imo I was never real was happy with Marone. I felt he just didn't care by seeing him standing on the sideline. See, these posts are exactly what perpetuates the constant arguing when it comes to this very delicate subject. The poster was responding to me and I am not in the "EJ stands no chance" crowd. In fact, I laid out my stance on EJ very clearly on the previous page. Feel free to take a gander. Edited August 17, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Dude I said YOU don't know what it means, not me. BuffaloBob, you're fighting a losing battle here, trust me. Exactly what battle am I fighting? I think you have me confused with someone else. There is no battle here. ROTFLMAO! Except for the one in your head, perhaps. emulating Fire Chan isn't helping your cause... unless you ARE Fire Chan He's a veritable legend in his own mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I would argue that all of these excuses (and they are excuses) are superseded by the fact that he simply has not looked sharp throwing the football in camp the last two years (he was no doubt worse last year than this year). I'm talking in 7 on 7 drills where it doesn't matter who your coach is or who is on your offensive line. If he looked sharp throwing the football in practice and then struggled in game situations, I would be more inclined to go along with what you're saying and question why his success was/is unable to translate to game situations. Fair? That makes no difference to my point. Again you are approaching this with a pre-conception that I am trying to make excuses for EJ. I am not. The person ultimately responsible for EJ's failure to develop into the franchise QB of the Buffalo Bills is EJ Manuel, but the organisation has not given him circumstances conducive to success in the same way we didn't for Losman and we didn't for Edwards. What I want to focus on is making sure we give the next guy every opportunity to develop into our franchise Quarterback. One thing I hope we can agree on is that there is just a smidgen of optimism that guy might already be on the roster and be name Tyrod Taylor? Edited August 17, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr8billsfan Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I thought the point of a vet QB coming in was so EJ would learn, why is that NOT the case? I know Cassel may be consistent and be an overall better QB, but we're cutting our 1st round draft pick a couple years ago for nothing? Blasphemy. GO Bills! Edited August 17, 2015 by gr8billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) That makes no difference to my point. Again you are approaching this with a pre-conception that I am trying to make excuses for EJ. I am not. The person ultimately responsible for EJ's failure to develop into the franchise QB of the Buffalo Bills is EJ Manuel, but the organisation has not given him circumstances conducive to success in the same way we didn't for Losman and we didn't for Edwards. What I want to focus on is making sure we give the next guy every opportunity to develop into our franchise Quarterback. One thing I hope we can agree on is that there is just a smidgen of optimism that guy might already be on the roster and be name Tyrod Taylor? I hope so! And ironically he's the only one of the three that no one's talking about. The one thing I'd ask you is to give me an example of a time where a rookie QB gets to waltz onto a team with an established veteran to sit behind or perhaps mentor him for a few years, a proven coaching staff, a great offensive line, etc. Aaron Rodgers? Brock Osweiler? Carson Palmer? We're talking a few very rare instances here. And Rodgers' line sucked when he first started. At some point you have to put the onus on the QB. Way, way more often than not, the situation is gonna be less than ideal for a young QB. I am more in the "if he's good, he'll be good" camp and less in the "circumstances have to be just right" camp. Edited August 17, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 No reason to fight folks. Just wait til the depth chart comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I am more in the "if he's good, he'll be good" camp and less in the "circumstances have to be just right" camp. I am in the other camp. I think the right coaching the right plan and the right amount of patience and faith in a young Quarterback are major difference makers in respect of whether young guys make it or not. Especially now. So few guys are coming out of college "NFL ready" I think circumstances and situation matter massively. EDIT: interestingly one man who might fit your requested example is Tyrod Taylor. Let's hope we benefit. Edited August 17, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I am in the other camp. I think the right coaching the right plan and the right amount of patience and faith in a young Quarterback are major difference makers in respect of whether young guys make it or not. Especially now. So few guys are coming out of college "NFL ready" I think circumstances and situation matter massively. EDIT: interestingly one man who might fit your requested example is Tyrod Taylor. Let's hope we benefit. Not sure why that should be confusing. It doesn't surprise me that you aren't sure that I know what chronologically means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I am in the other camp. I think the right coaching the right plan and the right amount of patience and faith in a young Quarterback are major difference makers in respect of whether young guys make it or not. Especially now. So few guys are coming out of college "NFL ready" I think circumstances and situation matter massively. EDIT: interestingly one man who might fit your requested example is Tyrod Taylor. Let's hope we benefit. Ryan Tannehill anyone? The guy has had plenty of struggles during his tenure in Miami, but the Dolphins stuck with him. He's still not that good of a QB from my vantage point, but they at least haven't jerked the guy around and let him go through his growing pains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Ryan Tannehill anyone? The guy has had plenty of struggles during his tenure in Miami, but the Dolphins stuck with him. He's still not that good of a QB from my vantage point, but they at least haven't jerked the guy around and let him go through his growing pains. And had his college coach as his OC for his first two years who already knew what he could and couldnt do and could design an offense around it. Remember over-excited Nate wanted to run no huddle wuth EJ. Tannehill still had some circumstance to overcome - a terrible o-line for example but he has had some of those advantages that we just never seen to give young QBs and indeed for many years Miami's trigger finger had been worse than ours and it had got them precisely nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 And had his college coach as his OC for his first two years who already knew what he could and couldnt do and could design an offense around it. Remember over-excited Nate wanted to run no huddle wuth EJ. Tannehill still had some circumstance to overcome - a terrible o-line for example but he has had some of those advantages that we just never seen to give young QBs and indeed for many years Miami's trigger finger had been worse than ours and it had got them precisely nowhere. Like a #4 overall WR? Or a top ten defense for two years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Because you always presume that the people making this point are making it to defend EJ when the majority of us are doing nothing of the sort. If you think that the right way to develop a rookie Quarterback is with no vet around, no QB coach and a rookie OC whose previous NFL experience was as a quality control coach and then to rush him back from knee injuries not once but twice whilst placing a woeful offensive line infront of him then I don't know what to tell you. If you think basically giving him a free pass throughout training camp in year two to then turn around and say "actually we are moving on" after 4 games of the regular season is the right way to develop a young Quarterback then again - I don't know what to tell you. EJ might have failed anyway... but the way the Bills handled him through his first 2 years in the league set him up for failure and any rookie Quarterback coming in and requiring development would have found things mighty tough. A generational Andrew Luck type might have been ok but other than that I think the outcome would have been the same. And it is not the first time the Bills have completely messed up their handling of young Quarterbacks, I feel like it is history repeated. Others may well say, and I'm sure they will, that the guys we drafted were not good enough in the first place... probably so... but whether it is Losman, Edwards or EJ we are talking about it has been a story of botched development, poor coaching and horrific lines that lead to injuries at crucial development stages. Whoever comes next I hope we set up with a chance to succeed, because I have to say I feel sorry for all 3 of those guys. And before you accuse me of it I am not an EJ defender. I don't quite think he is as bad as some on here but actually I have often agreed with your analysis of his game... but I insist it is placed in its proper context not because I love EJ and I want him to be our Quarterback but because it is important as a fan base that we recognise the pattern that is repeating here and it is more than just drafting the wrong guys - the desperation around our team has led to a series of botched QB development plans in a rush to try and prove something. At the end of the day, winners find a way to win. If he doesn't break through as an NFL quarterback, that is because he did not have the talent or composition to do so. There are no excuses. When you get your shot, you better be ready. If he fails, it's because he is not an NFL caliber quarterback. I'm sure if this happens, all those who thought he "just needs more time" will surely say that was the reason he failed. I think that will be more of a product of them not wanting to be wrong about their incorrect assessment that EJ Manuel could be a good NFL football player. I'll gladly be proved wrong if that ever happens, but you won't see my trying to change the conditions of the debate in order to avoid being wrong. I think he's not a good NFL player from what I've seen of him. I know a bunch of you went out and bought #3 jerseys and all, but that can't change the fact he's bad if that's the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 At the end of the day, winners find a way to win. If he doesn't break through as an NFL quarterback, that is because he did not have the talent or composition to do so. There are no excuses. When you get your shot, you better be ready. If he fails, it's because he is not an NFL caliber quarterback. I'm sure if this happens, all those who thought he "just needs more time" will surely say that was the reason he failed. I think that will be more of a product of them not wanting to be wrong about their incorrect assessment that EJ Manuel could be a good NFL football player. I'll gladly be proved wrong if that ever happens, but you won't see my trying to change the conditions of the debate in order to avoid being wrong. I think he's not a good NFL player from what I've seen of him. I know a bunch of you went out and bought #3 jerseys and all, but that can't change the fact he's bad if that's the way it is. My thoughts exactly. This should not be viewed as some sort of fringe or "hater" post. This is the way most reasonable people feel about the situation. And yet for some reason on this particular board, a post like this is the outlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 and another non informative post from Mr. Billz Just curious, do you think that pointing out other peoples post as non informative is any more non informative than pointing it out? Let me guess, My post wasn't informative enough for you to reply with some other than it was non informative. You realize it's just as simple to not reply to the post and read the next one right? I would do the same but you just continually post the same "another post that means nothing". Attacking others doesn't add to the board so just read and move on if it's non informative to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) At the end of the day, winners find a way to win. If he doesn't break through as an NFL quarterback, that is because he did not have the talent or composition to do so. There are no excuses. When you get your shot, you better be ready. If he fails, it's because he is not an NFL caliber quarterback. I'm sure if this happens, all those who thought he "just needs more time" will surely say that was the reason he failed. I think that will be more of a product of them not wanting to be wrong about their incorrect assessment that EJ Manuel could be a good NFL football player. I'll gladly be proved wrong if that ever happens, but you won't see my trying to change the conditions of the debate in order to avoid being wrong. I think he's not a good NFL player from what I've seen of him. I know a bunch of you went out and bought #3 jerseys and all, but that can't change the fact he's bad if that's the way it is. I have already said the person to blame ultimately for EJ not being good enough is EJ. Here we have another person missing the point I am trying to make. And I disagree with your opening line. The generational type talents sure they will succeed regardless most Quarterbacks, hell I'd say probably 70-75% of the players in the NFL need the right conditions in which to succeed. That is part of the reason you see so many big FA busts. It is simply not as simple as if yoy are good you will be good anywhere regardless of situation and circumstance. None of which please understand is me saying EJ Manuel would have made it had Chip Kelly drafted him or any of that speculative nonsense. It is simply me saying situation matters to football players and indeed to people in most team sports. EDIT: and let me repeat again for the hard of reading - I am not defending or excusing (or whatever it is I am accused of) EJ Manuel. Edited August 17, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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