Was the trade for Watkins worth it?

[Kirby Jackson]

At the time of last year's draft, YES.

 

My reaction at the time of last year's draft was "oh ****, we have no proven QB, and won't have a shot at a good one in next year's draft if EJ fails".

 

I get that the two picks probably have equal value (according to trade value chart), especially since this year's pick is #19. So, my reaction is somewhat illogical.

It makes sense to me. At the time, I was the opposite. I thought that last year's draft was really deep and this one was not. In addition, I thought that the Bills would be decent (as it turns out they were and it was pick 19). In hindsight, I would have rather passed on CK and had pick 19 this year. With that being said, I am still fine with it.

[TXBILLSFAN]

No, I didn't mean to say that at all.

 

I don't like to make arguments in retrospect, especially given the appreciation I have for the scouting process and all that it entails. And even though I am now indeed regurgitating old arguments, the simple fact is that as good as the WR class was, Sammy Watkins was head and shoulders above anyone else and by a pretty substantial margin, especially from an understanding of the game perspective. Nobody else was considered nearly the complete package coming out as Watkins and that consensus remains even after their rookie seasons.

 

GO BILLS!!!

If that wasn't your point then what did you mean that "#1 and #2 conflict with each other ?"

 

I'll concede that Sammy was the clear #1 WR heading into the draft, however, I won't conceded the "head and shoulders" margin as it pertains to NFL analysts/pundits, I will agree that the Bills FO believed that, which is why they made trade.

[Rob's House]

My hope is this year our coaching staff may choose to include some of the simpler routes and actually throw Sammy a screen pass so he can get the "free yards" that he made a living off of in college ball.

That was one reason I thought he was an awkward fit for us even before we took him. It seemed odd to draft a guy whose specialty is the screen game to play in an offense that doesn't utilize WR screens. Hopefully the new regime takes a different approach.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Rob's House

[TXBILLSFAN]

It makes sense to me. At the time, I was the opposite. I thought that last year's draft was really deep and this one was not. In addition, I thought that the Bills would be decent (as it turns out they were and it was pick 19). In hindsight, I would have rather passed on CK and had pick 19 this year. With that being said, I am still fine with it.

And I'm sure Cleveland thought this year's pick was going to be higher, too.

 

I didn't have much perspective last year on this year's draft, I think it does make the trade more palatable knowing that this year's 1st round looks mediocre and the #19 pick doesn't look like it'll be a game changer.

[YoloinOhio]

Sammy's ceiling is not under his own control, he is (unfortunately for him) linked to the play of the QB and the offensive scheme around him. Last season, he was not great, you can argue the WHY, but the result is the result.

 

I had two big problems with the trade (then and now):

1- Bills did not have QB to get him the ball

2- Last year's draft was DEEP at that position and there wasn't a need to move up

 

The reason it is still a bad trade is that neither 1 or 2 has changed.

 

If Cassel (or other Bills QB) plays well enough for Sammy to be great, then the trade works.

 

But, if the Bills continue with poor QB play and don't get Sammy the ball, he could in his own right be a great player, but won't be a great player for THIS TEAM and the trade will not have made sense.

 

This isn't as much about how good Sammy could be, it's about how good Sammy WILL be on this team with this QB.

 

Again, last year, the results were the results. It's great to know that he was open and our QB sucked (which isn't his fault), but Whaley knew we had a crappy QB when he made trade.

i agree that in hindsight and as it stands right now there may not have been a need to move up (year 2 will determine more imo as some of these guys start to face more #1 corners and game planning in their direction). But I think that after drafting a QB in the 1st Rd the year prior, and job number one of a team is to develop your QB while trying to win games, you give him the best weapons you can.

[John from Riverside]

Thanks for ruining tonight, Whaley, and for what, a receiver? I wouldn't move up to get Jerry Rice if we had Montana for a QB. Moving up and paying like you did was a rookie move, bro.

A lot like most of your posts

No sure why you have an issue with what I posted.

 

I said I didn't like the trade then, I don't like it now.

 

I want Sammy to be great and prove me wrong.

 

What's your beef ?

Looked pretty darn good for a rookie Tex

[Kelly the Dog]

Sammy also played a minor but noteworthy role in Rex Ryan, Percy Harvin, and Charles Clay coming here. They all talked about him as part of the decision when considering the Bills and that affect will last as long as he is here. He is surely not the reason they came but it's a factor.

[John from Riverside]

I think what you meant to say is that problem #2 remains even if problem #1 goes away. Which is true. However, if EJ turned out to be a very good QB and got Sammy the ball and Sammy had great season, I would argue that even though it was a DEEP WR class, most of us who were against the trade would admit the trade worked, even if it meant giving up an extra #1.

I have seen many years where it was claimed that the draft was deep at a certain position and in the end ended up NOT being the case.....

 

Cannot base decisions at the time in hindsight

 

Sammy Watkins was the most can miss player of that draft.......and he actually had upside past it......his work eithic and character match his performance.....

 

He could be special....time to stop lamenting that draft and move onto the future

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

I think Sammy is great... Go Bills!!

[FireChan]

If that wasn't your point then what did you mean that "#1 and #2 conflict with each other ?"

 

I'll concede that Sammy was the clear #1 WR heading into the draft, however, I won't conceded the "head and shoulders" margin as it pertains to NFL analysts/pundits, I will agree that the Bills FO believed that, which is why they made trade.

K-9 isn't talking about the NFL pundits.

 

If you agree that Sammy was #1, how could you hate the trade? We shouldn't have gotten the best WR in the draft because why? Who at #19 is worth it?

[34-78-83]

Yes. All Day. Hot pocket experts be damned. With relatively equal Quarterbacking and good fortune with injuries, Sammy is going to end up better than all the guys in his class by a lot IMO.... Even if no, we wouldn't getting a savior QB this year at pick 19.

[YoloinOhio]

Idea put out there on Twitter by Del Reid (of Bills Mafia) -

 

Del Reid ‏@mrdeadlier 6h6 hours ago

Idea. When the 19th selection is made by Cleveland (or whomever) tonight, tweet "worth it" at Sammy Watkins. I think that would be cool.

[BuffaloBillsForever]

Idea put out there on Twitter by Del Reid (of Bills Mafia) -

 

Del Reid ‏@mrdeadlier 6h6 hours ago

Idea. When the 19th selection is made by Cleveland (or whomever) tonight, tweet "worth it" at Sammy Watkins. I think that would be cool.

A lot of Bills fans are so insecure about the move to trade up for Watkins. They have to attempt to rationalize it in every conceivable way.

[TXBILLSFAN]

K-9 isn't talking about the NFL pundits.

 

If you agree that Sammy was #1, how could you hate the trade? We shouldn't have gotten the best WR in the draft because why? Who at #19 is worth it?

I hate the trade because I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.

 

I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).

 

I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.

 

This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles.

 

I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl.

[FireChan]

I hate the trade because I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.

 

I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).

 

I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.

 

This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles.

 

I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl.

I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.

 

Well, I'm going to go with the consensus of the scouting community over you. Watkins was head and shoulders over all of them. Also, Benjamin? Are you just looking at the stat line to see how good they are? Benjamin was alright, but he is very raw, runs poor routes etc. Wasting his talents? What? Only draft WR's when you have QB's? Would we be wasting the talent of a Pro-Bowl O-lineman because our QB sucked? Obviously not, for some arbitrary reason, as evidenced by....

 

I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).

 

You'd rather have spent another precious resource on the 3rd ranked defense than the 20+ ranked O? Wha? And which OT, be specific please. You can't say a draft choice sucks without giving specifics.

 

I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.

 

So, besides signing ~10 QB's since 2013, they haven't spent enough time? How do you figure? Not one sentence ago you said you'd rather have had them take a linebacker with our first round pick, but we haven't spent enough time finding QB's? What?

 

This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles.

 

Why Bradford or Foles? Huge question marks with both. Sacrifice everything? I suppose it could have worked, but if Foles sucks in STL and Bradford sucks in PHI/CLE, I expect you to own that.

 

I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl.

 

Cassell has played like a top 16 QB before. Maybe he can do it again. If not, Bradford in the top 16? I think he's # 2 in fewest games played since 2010. If we make the playoffs, we have a shot at the Superbowl. And trading a Dareus + picks for Bradford would've been ludicrous.

Edited April 30, 2015 by FireChan

[John from Riverside]

I hate the trade because I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.

 

Of which we really wont know if true for another couple of years.......basing production of drafted players in their first year is a MISTAKE for a number of reasons.

 

I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).

 

We did....in the second round.....and Cyrus flopped in his first year (which leads me to my point again above BUT most scouts had Cyrus as a 1st round prospect so the bills DID in fact invest in the O line.....soooooo what is the gripe? And spending on D? On a top 4 defense? Really? When our O was so bad? Really?

 

I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.

 

I say this to everyone who spouts this.....please explain in your opinion what Whaley could have done here.....(I will wait).......there are only SO MANY FRANCHISE QB's in the league...only about 5 teams have them......so what should they have done?

 

This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles. Please see above.....and explain how we get our QB.

 

I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl. Dont you find it interesting that the teams that make it to the championship game also are more then solid at other spots on their team?

[FireChan]

 

I hate the trade because I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.

 

Of which we really wont know if true for another couple of years.......basing production of drafted players in their first year is a MISTAKE for a number of reasons.

 

I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).

 

We did....in the second round.....and Cyrus flopped in his first year (which leads me to my point again above BUT most scouts had Cyrus as a 1st round prospect so the bills DID in fact invest in the O line.....soooooo what is the gripe? And spending on D? On a top 4 defense? Really? When our O was so bad? Really?

 

I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.

 

I say this to everyone who spouts this.....please explain in your opinion what Whaley could have done here.....(I will wait).......there are only SO MANY FRANCHISE QB's in the league...only about 5 teams have them......so what should they have done?

 

This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles. Please see above.....and explain how we get our QB.

 

I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl. Dont you find it interesting that the teams that make it to the championship game also are more then solid at other spots on their team?

 

Gotta be faster than that John.

[djp14150]

Here's the real question - If Odell Beckham didn't do what he did, would this still even be a discussion?

 

 

 

I don't hear anyone but the most delusional Browns fans saying they'd trade Watkins for Justin Gilbert and the 19th pick in this draft. Most people seem to be getting hung up on Beckham without realizing no one had him valued at #9 and bringing him up is some serious revisionist history. It's clearly worth it, Sammy came up huge in a couple of wins last year and we haven't had a WR of his caliber since Moulds was in his prime.

 

I agree....

 

If Buffalo had Manning as their QB there wouldn't be any discussion either. Beckham would not have put up anywhere near those numbers dealing with Buffalo's QBs.

[Wayne Cubed]

I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.

 

Well, I'm going to go with the consensus of the scouting community over you. Watkins was head and shoulders over all of them. Also, Benjamin? Are you just looking at the stat line to see how good they are? Benjamin was alright, but he is very raw, runs poor routes etc. Wasting his talents? What? Only draft WR's when you have QB's? Would we be wasting the talent of a Pro-Bowl O-lineman because our QB sucked? Obviously not, for some arbitrary reason, as evidenced by....

 

I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).

 

You'd rather have spent another precious resource on the 3rd ranked defense than the 20+ ranked O? Wha? And which OT, be specific please. You can't say a draft choice sucks without giving specifics.

 

I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.

 

So, besides signing ~10 QB's since 2013, they haven't spent enough time? How do you figure? Not one sentence ago you said you'd rather have had them take a linebacker with our first round pick, but we haven't spent enough time finding QB's? What?

 

This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles.

 

Why Bradford or Foles? Huge question marks with both. Sacrifice everything? I suppose it could have worked, but if Foles sucks in STL and Bradford sucks in PHI/CLE, I expect you to own that.

 

I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl.

 

Cassell has played like a top 16 QB before. Maybe he can do it again. If not, Bradford in the top 16? I think he's # 2 in fewest games played since 2010. If we make the playoffs, we have a shot at the Superbowl. And trading a Dareus + picks for Bradford would've been ludicrous.

Damn I was going for a similar response...

 

My favorite part is that if you don't have a franchise QB it's a waste to invest in other parts of the offense. The Bills should just be happy with mediocre WRs and TEs.

[PromoTheRobot]

Boy, it's weird how much some fans hate getting elite players.