Name team and 5 skill players better than Bills last 10 yrs

[NoSaint]

The original question was which 5? That's the title and the thesis and core question. Obviously because 5 skill players are on the field at the same time on every play pretty much.

 

Then I said if you want to go 6-7 players, a different question, add Felton and/or Freddy to the mix on the Bills.

 

That's not changing the question. People weren't offering 6 or 7 guys in their scenarios.

 

Clark caught 100 balls after they no longer had James and they had no running game. The Joseph Addai years. When they had James he was a 30 catch guy for about four years.

 

Clay is actually better now than Clark was in the James years.

is he better, or more productive? those arent the same thing in a discussion like this. IE did the light come on or did the shift open opportunities for him? I dont recall the transition offhand.

[dave mcbride]

Sproles plays RB though. He's not nearly as good or dangerous as a WR or when split wide as Harvin is. When you had LT there, they really didn't play them all that much together and it wasn't all that effective. Sproles is a very, very effective player though on a play by play basis catching passes out of the backfield. Harvin is a better KR but doesn't return punts. Sproles is a very average PR and always has been, and a pretty good KR. I would take Harvin as a five on the field guy.

Those stats are old. The last few years are when he has had a bit of the dropsies. He has a pretty good percentage but two of the last four years he was in the top ten in number of drops. He's pretty sure handed though, and makes ridiculous catches at times, so it's not like it's a huge worry. But he's not an elite receiver for a lot of reasons. He's at the top of the league as a possession receiver.

He had four total drops in 2013 on 129 targets and 85 receptions in 2013. That's very good: http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/149000/anquan-boldins-case-of-dropsies-new-development-for-49ers .

[Kelly the Dog]

He had four total drops in 2013 on 129 targets and 85 receptions in 2013. That's very good: http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/149000/anquan-boldins-case-of-dropsies-new-development-for-49ers .

That is. It doesn't negate that he was in the top ten two of the last four years in total drops.

 

This shouldn't be about drops anyway. He has great hands. I have this argument with people once in awhile about guys like TO who used to have a bunch of drops. TO, and guys like Boldin, make so many catches they have no business making, and get to balls and hold onto them for catches that other players don't make, their drops are irrelevant and the trade off is worth it 100 times out of 100.

[dave mcbride]

That is. It doesn't negate that he was in the top ten two of the last four years in total drops.

 

This shouldn't be about drops anyway. He has great hands. I have this argument with people once in awhile about guys like TO who used to have a bunch of drops. TO, and guys like Boldin, make so many catches they have no business making, and get to balls and hold onto them for catches that other players don't make, their drops are irrelevant and the trade off is worth it 100 times out of 100.

I am nearly in 100 percent agreement, but I do think TO dropped more passes than he should have. Boldin, on the other hand, has excellent hands.

[Kelly the Dog]

is he better, or more productive? those arent the same thing in a discussion like this. IE did the light come on or did the shift open opportunities for him? I dont recall the transition offhand.

You tell me. He played 11 years. The first four were under 29-25-37-30 catches, the next three were 58-77-100, and then the next four were 37-34-47-31 (although the 37 year he was playing well before he got hurt which started his downfall).

 

The only year Clay played TE and not hurt he caught 69 balls. Last year, hurt the whole year, he caught 58.

 

I would say Clay is more versatile and a better blocker.

 

I like Dallas Clark but I think Clay is a better TE. He was my number one choice for the FA period, so I have always liked him though.

I am nearly in 100 percent agreement, but I do think TO dropped more passes than he should have. Boldin, on the other hand, has excellent hands.

Also, drops are an extremely difficult stat to keep. There are a lot of plays I think a guy dropped it and other guys I know who know football wouldn't call it a drop. And vice versa.

[NoSaint]

You tell me. He played 11 years. The first four were under 29-25-37-30 catches, the next three were 58-77-100, and then the next four were 37-34-47-31 (although the 37 year he was playing well before he got hurt which started his downfall).

 

The only year Clay played TE and not hurt he caught 69 balls. Last year, hurt the whole year, he caught 58.

 

I would say Clay is more versatile and a better blocker.

 

I like Dallas Clark but I think Clay is a better TE. He was my number one choice for the FA period, so I have always liked him though.

 

i guess my point was asking you if clark changed as a player after that, or do you think the offense changed with james leaving. If he was just as good with james there, just fewer targets - then pointing to him being less productive with james doesnt discount the overall skill of the 5 while james was there. just like you may see 1 of our guys produce below his potential due to limited targets. doesnt mean that guy is less talented.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

I'm pretty sure there are a few, maybe a lot. But I would like to see all of the NON-QUARTERBACK group of five skill players that you would have preferred GOING INTO A SEASON in total considering age, injury, etc.

 

Like, for example, Denver of last year may have been better with Demayrius Thomas, Sanders, Welker (although he wasn't really there at the beginning of the season, Thomas the TE and whomever they started the season at RB, maybe Montee Ball? You could even insert CJ Anderson I guess, even though he didn't start the season.

 

I personally would choose Watkins, Woods, Harvin, Clay, McCoy I think. But it's very close.

 

If you want to go 6-7 deep maybe add Felton and Freddy.

 

Please, please do not say anything about QBs, this thread is just about the five skill players other than QBs. Please, please do not say anything resembling "It doesn't matter if you don't have a QB." Everyone here knows that. It will be a public admission you're ignorant and an ass, and a pox will be put on your house and something very bad will happen at your workplace and to your phone, car and sister if you have one.

 

Who is or was better than our five guys in total, that you would trade five for five.

 

And it counts the age and physical ability now, like, for example, if you say The Colts of 2015 you are counting the Frank Gore of 2015 not of when he was in his prime.

 

Maybe the Packers of a couple years ago had a better five.

 

Go on, I double dog dare you.

Who is felton?

[dave mcbride]

You tell me. He played 11 years. The first four were under 29-25-37-30 catches, the next three were 58-77-100, and then the next four were 37-34-47-31 (although the 37 year he was playing well before he got hurt which started his downfall).

 

The only year Clay played TE and not hurt he caught 69 balls. Last year, hurt the whole year, he caught 58.

 

I would say Clay is more versatile and a better blocker.

 

I like Dallas Clark but I think Clay is a better TE. He was my number one choice for the FA period, so I have always liked him though.

Also, drops are an extremely difficult stat to keep. There are a lot of plays I think a guy dropped it and other guys I know who know football wouldn't call it a drop. And vice versa.

It's tricky with tight ends. Heath Miller has been a legitimately great player, but he doesn't catch a huge number of balls. He catches his fair share, though, and he's good in so many other ways.

 

Speaking of which, the five for Pittsburgh last year are very stiff competition if you assume like I do that Martavis Bryant was a stud despite the low number of total catches (he barely played early on and 26 receptions, 8 tds, and a 21.1 ypc average). Talk about a great 4th round pick.

Edited April 23, 2015 by dave mcbride

[YoloinOhio]

It's tricky with tight ends. Heath Miller has been a legitimately great player, but he doesn't catch a huge number of balls. He catches his fair share, though, and he's good in so many other ways.

 

Speaking of which, the five for Pittsburgh last year are very stiff competition if you assume like I do that Martavis Bryant was a stud despite the low number of total catches (he barely played early on and 26 receptions, 8 tds, and a 21.1 ypc average). Talk about a great 4th round pick.

i sad it earlier but the Steelers are really, really good at scouting/drafting WR. I also found it interesting, wrt Martavis Bryant, that in that SI article Rex said he begged Idzik to take him in the 4th and he took a different WR whose name escapes me but they ended up actually cutting. Edited April 23, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Mr. WEO]

The original question was which 5? That's the title and the thesis and core question. Obviously because 5 skill players are on the field at the same time on every play pretty much.

 

Then I said if you want to go 6-7 players, a different question, add Felton and/or Freddy to the mix on the Bills.

 

That's not changing the question. People weren't offering 6 or 7 guys in their scenarios.

 

Clark caught 100 balls after they no longer had James and they had no running game. The Joseph Addai years. When they had James he was a 30 catch guy for about four years.

Clay is actually better now than Clark was in the James years.

 

I guess when you said 5 skill position guys in total to trade for our 5, it wasn't clear to me that all had 5 to be on the field together on nearly every play ( our 5 won't be either..).

 

 

In 2013, the Fins were a crappy running team and Clay had his best year--a year inferior to Clark's during the Addai years. So both guys caught more on crappy/mediocre running teams, but Clark caught more.

 

 

 

You can't take away actual accomplishments (Clark) in order to make potential ones (Clay) seem better. Clay is not now a better TE than Clark was. Not yet--and certainly not just because he switched jerseys.

[Kelly the Dog]

i guess my point was asking you if clark changed as a player after that, or do you think the offense changed with james leaving. If he was just as good with james there, just fewer targets - then pointing to him being less productive with james doesnt discount the overall skill of the 5 while james was there. just like you may see 1 of our guys produce below his potential due to limited targets. doesnt mean that guy is less talented.

I think it took him several years before he became any good but I didn't pay attention enough to know. There were a few years when he was playing along with very average players at his position who were getting just as many plays and targets like Marcus Pollard and Ben Utecht. Clark was a decent player who was good for a few years out of 11 or 12. I take Clay going into his third year as a TE easily, except for maybe two of those 11 years.

 

I very much doubt Clay is going to put up big numbers this year. And people will complain he is a bust and not worth the money. I also think he will be one of our more valuable players and those people who say that will be stupid and just not watching.

I guess when you said 5 skill position guys in total to trade for our 5, it wasn't clear to me that all had 5 to be on the field together on nearly every play ( our 5 won't be either..).

 

 

In 2013, the Fins were a crappy running team and Clay had his best year--a year inferior to Clark's during the Addai years. So both guys caught more on crappy/mediocre running teams, but Clark caught more.

 

 

 

You can't take away actual accomplishments (Clark) in order to make potential ones (Clay) seem better. Clay is not now a better TE than Clark was. Not yet--and certainly not just because he switched jerseys.

As I said just now to No Saint, in the years where people are talking about the Colts as having five great players including Clark, Clark couldn't beat out Marcus Pollard, Ben Utecht, etc. it wasn't until his sixth season or so when he was even a clear #1 TE on his own team, against mediocre players.

I've also been on the Clay bandwagon for three years counting this off season. He was my favorite FA. So it's not that I liked him because he became a Bill. You can look up posts here where I have been saying how good this guy was on the Dolphins.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The first group that came to mind would be Atlanta in 2013.

 

Steven Jackson

Julio Jones

Roddy White

Harry Douglas

Tony Gonzales

 

It would be a tough choice but I'd go with our five though. Just not sure if that's my homer showing or not.

 

Good thread.

Nailed it.