Name team and 5 skill players better than Bills last 10 yrs

[KDIGGZ]

09 Steelers had Mendenhall, Holmes, Ward, Heath Miller, Mike Wallace

Edited April 23, 2015 by kdiggz

[YoloinOhio]

New entry:

 

2010/2011 Pittsburgh Steelers (ignoring RB for another WR):

Hines Ward

Mike Wallace

Antonio Brown

Emmanuel Sanders

Heath Miller

looking back at this group, AB wasn't the 2014 AB in 2010. sanders wasn't his current version yet either. They both had a ton of upside as we later saw and if you had this group today in Pitt it would be sick, but they don't. You have to look at where this group was at that time

That said - holy shite can Pitt draft Wrs?!

Edited April 23, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Chuck Wagon]

with all of those teams I got to 4 but not 5 guys who scare a DC.

 

 

I agree, but I'm also of the mindset that I need to see Percy fully buy in to not having the offense run through him and Shady show there's still plenty of gas in the tank before I fully believe in our potential. Everyone is happy and says the right things as the ink is drying on their contracts, but what happens the first time Percy gets 2 targets in a game or if the box is stacked for Shady and Henderson or others are getting their lunch handed to them?

[BuffaloHokie13]

looking back at this group, AB wasn't the 2014 AB in 2010. sanders wasn't his current version yet either. They both had a ton of upside as we later saw and if you had this group today in Pitt it would be sick, but they don't. You have to look at where this group was at that time

That said - holy shite can Pitt draft Wrs?!

yeah, I was looking at it more as 5 skill guys I'd want my team to have. That Pittsburgh group offered a very nice balance of Veteran presence, immediate impact, and developmental talent to take into the future imo.

[Kelly the Dog]

New entry:

 

2010/2011 Pittsburgh Steelers (ignoring RB for another WR):

Hines Ward

Mike Wallace

Antonio Brown

Emmanuel Sanders

Heath Miller

How do those five scare you with no running game? Granted, that wasn't the specific question but I thought it was implicit.

 

It also seems to be thinking of players in their prime. Ward was definitely going downhill. Sanders hadn't played much. Mendenhall was pretty good though.

yeah, I was looking at it more as 5 skill guys I'd want my team to have. That Pittsburgh group offered a very nice balance of Veteran presence, immediate impact, and developmental talent to take into the future imo.

Considering what you said, you would trade our five for their five? I wouldn't. Our five are all young, even McCoy should have three good years left.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

I agree, but I'm also of the mindset that I need to see Percy fully buy in to not having the offense run through him and Shady show there's still plenty of gas in the tank before I fully believe in our potential. Everyone is happy and says the right things as the ink is drying on their contracts, but what happens the first time Percy gets 2 targets in a game or if the box is stacked for Shady and Henderson or others are getting their lunch handed to them?

definitely there are question marks with the players but I guess I'm looking at it as a DC about the game plan for the Bills. As KtD ordered we are taking the qb situation out of it. DCs like to focus on taking the biggest playmakers out as much as possible. In the past that meant Chandler and hogan were open as teams focused on CJ, watkins, woods. This year it is going to be a headache to determine how to defend because the talent and playmaking ability is across the board and the guys can be lined up in different ways. It is truly multi dimensional, and it is a nightmare to defend the whole field. I see it a little bit like Ohio state in that regardless of the QB Urban will spread out defenses with athletes who can win the one on one matchups because in many cases they are just more talented than the guy trying to defend him. It forces the D to commit too many defenders in a certain direction and then boom, he makes you pay with someone else.

[BarleyNY]

with all of those teams I got to 4 but not 5 guys who scare a DC.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Right now we're comparing potential to proven production. There have been a lot of groups of skill players that had the potential the Bills 5 have, but failed to achieve for some reason or another - injury, poor support (QB, OL, coaching), miscast pieces, etc. Realistically the Bills have a lot to negotiate and need some luck for this group to all excel as we hope. I see the following concerns:

Watkins - health, including coming back 100% from labrum injury

Harvin - injury history and malcontent history

Woods - none

Clay - production must increase to live up to his contract

Shady - scheme fit

Support - QB and OL play must be considerably better than last season and I don't see the big upgrades there. Defense should take a lot of pressure off of the offense, however. Specials are a plus, too. Coaches are more than capable of putting players in position to be successful, but new schemes must be learned which sometimes takes time - especially with so many new players.

 

I hope it all comes up roses, but I am cautiously optimistic and fully expecting it to take time for things to come together. I expect to hit some bumps in the road along the way, too. Still, there's a lot to like about the overall direction.

 

Edited to add: I'm not saying that I expect that all of the concerns I noted above will play out that way. I just think that, from an odds perspective some will and some won't. Thus, we won't see the maximum potential realized.

Edited April 23, 2015 by BarleyNY

[BuffaloHokie13]

How do those five scare you with no running game? Granted, that wasn't the specific question but I thought it was implicit.

 

It also seems to be thinking of players in their prime. Ward was definitely going downhill. Sanders hadn't played much. Mendenhall was pretty good though.

 

Considering what you said, you would trade our five for their five? I wouldn't. Our five are all young, even McCoy should have three good years left.

No, I wouldn't. But that's a hell of a receiver class haha

[YoloinOhio]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Right now we're comparing potential to proven production. There have been a lot of groups of skill players that had the potential the Bills 5 have, but failed to achieve for some reason or another - injury, poor support (QB, OL, coaching), miscast pieces, etc. Realistically the Bills have a lot to negotiate and need some luck for this group to all excell as we hope. I see the following concerns:

Watkins - health, including coming back 100% from labrum injury

Harvin - injury history and malcontent history

Woods - none

Clay - production must increase to live up to his contract

Shady - scheme fit

Support - QB and OL play must be considerably better than last season and I don't see the big upgrades there. Defense should take a lot of pressure off of the offense, however. Specials are a plus, too. Coaches are more than capable of putting players in position to be successful, but new schemes must be learned which sometimes takes time - especially with so many new players.

 

I hope it all comes up roses, but I am cautiously optimistic and fully expecting it to take time for things to come together. I expect to hit some bumps in the road along the way, too. Still, there's a lot to like about the overall direction.

tbh taking the QB situation out of it like we were told, as a DC all 5 scare me sitting here today. I think that's the point of the exercise, no one is saying anything definitive about the offense succeeding, just looking at the 5 players and what they present. At least that is how I read it.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

 

I agree, but I'm also of the mindset that I need to see Percy fully buy in to not having the offense run through him and Shady show there's still plenty of gas in the tank before I fully believe in our potential. Everyone is happy and says the right things as the ink is drying on their contracts, but what happens the first time Percy gets 2 targets in a game or if the box is stacked for Shady and Henderson or others are getting their lunch handed to them?

 

That's exactly it, I know it's a bit of homerism in all of us but Percy Harvin is still very much (?) as is Clay to some extent. Does he have the ability to be dynamic, no question. Like I said previously, look at the Falcons going into 2012. Turner was a top 5 back in the league in 2011. Roddy White was a top 10 receiver and Julio Jones was a top 15 receiver as a rookie in 2011. Gonzales was a top 5 TE in 2011. Now Douglas doesn't really scare anyone but it's arguable that those 4 would scare a DC more or at least as much as Watkins, Woods, Clay and McCoy or Watkins, Harvin, Clay and McCoy.

 

Put all 5 on the field and it's tough to choose, IMO, who is scary mostly because I'm not sure how much Woods/Clay scare a DC as opposed to White/Gonzales at that point.

[Kelly the Dog]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Right now we're comparing potential to proven production. There have been a lot of groups of skill players that had the potential the Bills 5 have, but failed to achieve for some reason or another.

Name all of these "lot of groups."

 

Also...

Harvin has proven production.

McCoy has ridiculous proven production.

Clay has proven production.

Considering their situation, Woods and Watkins, too.

These guys aren't rookies. They have displayed the skill and talented and effort in the NFL.

No, I wouldn't. But that's a hell of a receiver class haha

It really is. Steelers have only been drafting great for 40 years though. I would like to see a little more consistency out of them.

[YoloinOhio]

 

That's exactly it, I know it's a bit of homerism in all of us but Percy Harvin is still very much (?) as is Clay to some extent. Does he have the ability to be dynamic, no question. Like I said previously, look at the Falcons going into 2012. Turner was a top 5 back in the league in 2011. Roddy White was a top 10 receiver and Julio Jones was a top 15 receiver as a rookie in 2011. Gonzales was a top 5 TE in 2011. Now Douglas doesn't really scare anyone but it's arguable that those 4 would scare a DC more or at least as much as Watkins, Woods, Clay and McCoy or Watkins, Harvin, Clay and McCoy.

 

Put all 5 on the field and it's tough to choose, IMO, who is scary mostly because I'm not sure how much Woods/Clay scare a DC as opposed to White/Gonzales at that point.

not sure about Woods but the reason I keep saying "scare a DC" is because Rex is one of the best defensive minds in the league and he absolutely had to have Clay for that very reason. He said that Clay was very difficult to game plan for and was tasked with that twice a year. Harvin is known to be difficult to game plan for as well, and he went after him too. That's kind of where I was going with that. Imo watkins and McCoy speak for themselves.

 

I guess I'll add that wrt Woods, Rex took Watkins competeIy out of the game last yr in the 2nd jets game as it appeared he was determined not to let him do what he did in the 1st game, and Woods ate them alive. Granted he had his JV corners out there, but i am sure that performance isn't Woods last where he takes advantage of single coverage from the weaker corner.

Edited April 23, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[dave mcbride]

I'm pretty sure there are a few, maybe a lot. But I would like to see all of the NON-QUARTERBACK group of five skill players that you would have preferred GOING INTO A SEASON in total considering age, injury, etc.

 

Like, for example, Denver of last year may have been better with Demayrius Thomas, Sanders, Welker (although he wasn't really there at the beginning of the season, Thomas the TE and whomever they started the season at RB, maybe Montee Ball? You could even insert CJ Anderson I guess, even though he didn't start the season.

 

I personally would choose Watkins, Woods, Harvin, Clay, McCoy I think. But it's very close.

 

If you want to go 6-7 deep maybe add Felton and Freddy.

 

Please, please do not say anything about QBs, this thread is just about the five skill players other than QBs. Please, please do not say anything resembling "It doesn't matter if you don't have a QB." Everyone here knows that. It will be a public admission you're ignorant and an ass, and a pox will be put on your house and something very bad will happen at your workplace and to your phone, car and sister if you have one.

 

Who is or was better than our five guys in total, that you would trade five for five.

 

And it counts the age and physical ability now, like, for example, if you say The Colts of 2015 you are counting the Frank Gore of 2015 not of when he was in his prime.

 

Maybe the Packers of a couple years ago had a better five.

 

Go on, I double dog dare you.

 

I'll go back four years:

 

Saints in 2011

 

Falcons in 2011

 

Niners in 2013

 

Steelers in 2014

 

Cowboys in 2014

 

Bears in 2013

 

A couple of comments: I think that Dez Bryant is far better than any receiver on the Bills right now, and Jimmy Graham is far better than Clay -- so much better that they change the calculus. I also view Wood as a solid #2 and nothing more -- a Lance Moore type. Also, Percy Harvin hasn't produced much of anything since 2011 - 3 straight years of under 800 yards from scrimmage. Sure, he's talented, but he hasn't produced. Until they show me more, I'm sticking with that. I'm certainly willing to change my opinion if these guys blow up (as I expect Watkins will).

 

By the way, the groups are available to see on pro-football-reference.com.

Edited April 23, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Wayne Cubed]

not sure about Woods but the reason I keep saying "scare a DC" is because Rex is one of the best defensive minds in the league and he absolutely had to have Clay for that very reason. He said that Clay was very difficult to game plan for and was tasked with that twice a year. Harvin is known to be difficult to game plan for as well, and he went after him too. That's kind of where I was going with that. Imo watkins and McCoy speak for themselves.

 

Definitely true and I agree but given the choice between Harvin or White, who would you take? Gonzales or Clay? At that point in their careers.

[Kelly the Dog]

That's exactly it, I know it's a bit of homerism in all of us but Percy Harvin is still very much (?) as is Clay to some extent. Does he have the ability to be dynamic, no question. Like I said previously, look at the Falcons going into 2012. Turner was a top 5 back in the league in 2011. Roddy White was a top 10 receiver and Julio Jones was a top 15 receiver as a rookie in 2011. Gonzales was a top 5 TE in 2011. Now Douglas doesn't really scare anyone but it's arguable that those 4 would scare a DC more or at least as much as Watkins, Woods, Clay and McCoy or Watkins, Harvin, Clay and McCoy.

 

Put all 5 on the field and it's tough to choose, IMO, who is scary mostly because I'm not sure how much Woods/Clay scare a DC as opposed to White/Gonzales at that point.

Good post.

 

That team was stacked. Pure talent, speed, skill, and playmaking ability, I think I take our five. Because of McCoy and what I perceive to be a large difference in our weakest link, Woods, versus theirs, Douglas. Going into 2011 he was catching 22 passes and 1 TD a year for a couple years.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

I'll go back four years:

 

Saints in 2011

 

Falcons in 2011

 

Niners in 2013

 

Steelers in 2014

 

Cowboys in 2014

 

Bears in 2013

 

A couple of comments: I think that Dez Bryant is far better than any receiver on the Bills right now, and Jimmy Graham is far better than Clay -- so much better that they change the calculus. I also view Wood as a solid #2 and nothing more -- a Lance Moore type. Also, Percy Harvin hasn't produced much of anything since 2011 - 3 straight years of under 800 yards from scrimmage. Sure, he's talented, but he hasn't produced. Until they show me more, I'm sticking with that. I'm certainly willing to change my opinion if these guys blow up (as I expect Watkins will).

 

By the way, the groups are available to see on pro-football-reference.com.

 

Do you mean each one of these teams after their respective season, so going into the next season. That's why I choose the 2012 Falcons after their 2011 seaons when Jones established himself and Turner was a top 5 back.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'll go back four years:

 

Saints in 2011

 

Falcons in 2011

 

Niners in 2013

 

Steelers in 2014

 

Cowboys in 2014

 

Bears in 2013

 

A couple of comments: I think that Dez Bryant is far better than any receiver on the Bills right now, and Jimmy Graham is far better than Clay -- so much better that they change the calculus. I also view Wood as a solid #2 and nothing more -- a Lance Moore type. Also, Percy Harvin hasn't produced much of anything since 2011 - 3 straight years of under 800 yards from scrimmage. Sure, he's talented, but he hasn't produced. Until they show me more, I'm sticking with that. I'm certainly willing to change my opinion if these guys blow up (as I expect Watkins will).

 

By the way, the groups are available to see on pro-football-reference.com.

You would trade the five on all of those teams you mentioned straight up for our five going into those seasons?

 

I agree with Dez and Graham and how much better is an important factor for all of those. I just don't make that trade five for five wi any of those teams. I would strongly think about a few of them though. Like not a chance with the 49ers considering the WR. We beat them straight up in four out of five players.

[YoloinOhio]

 

Definitely true and I agree but given the choice between Harvin or White, who would you take? Gonzales or Clay? At that point in their careers.

i think I'm looking at it Differently and although we aren't considering the strength of the QB position I guess I am veering toward YAC and versatility being more important skill set because of ours. If you compare player to player with your examples, I would take Harvin and Tony G. If you compare unit to unit,given what we need in terms of our QB situation i would take ours. If we had Matt Ryan I would veer more toward their unit. Edited April 23, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[dave mcbride]

 

Do you mean each one of these teams after their respective season, so going into the next season. That's why I choose the 2012 Falcons after their 2011 seaons when Jones established himself and Turner was a top 5 back.

Oh. Actually, with regard to the Falcons, I expected Jones to be great in his first year (just like I expected Watkins to be awesome this year - he mostly was except for the injuries). I expected Turner to decline eventually but I didn't expect it prior to the 2011 season. I can't recall what I thought going into 2012, but my general rule of thumb is that RBs will give you 6-7 really good years at best before they decline in their late 20s (I know there are exceptions). He was 30 going into the 2012 season.

[Wayne Cubed]

Good post.

 

That team was stacked. Pure talent, speed, skill, and playmaking ability, I think I take our five. Because of McCoy and what I perceive to be a large difference in our weakest link, Woods, versus theirs, Douglas. Going into 2011 he was catching 22 passes and 1 TD a year for a couple years.

 

Douglas is where it definitely falls down.

 

But I think it at least shows theirs enough of the football to go around with those 4 putting up their stats. I'm not sure I see Woods with as many yards and TD's as White or Jones but those catches and TD's could be split with Harvin. And if Clay has a year like Gonzales did, look out.