Article: Quit Sleeping on EJ Manuel

[QuoteTheRaven83]

So you think they signed Tyrod just to sign his replacement before he even practices with us? Or you're comfortable cutting our 2nd round pick before the season starts if he is beat out by the rest?

 

If Manuel doesn't win the competition, he's done here IMO. So then we'll have to start Cassel this year, and should have Manuel and the rookie fight for the backup position. Start the "rookie" QB in his 2nd year and cut ties with Manuel in 2016.

 

Just to make it clear though, I think EJ SHOULD be the starting QB going in and should be starting the ENTIRE season. I still don't think we know what we have with EJ.

Edited April 2, 2015 by QuoteTheRaven83

[Doc]

Brady was 81/137 (59.1%) for 791 yards (198 YPG) with 4 TD's, 2 INT's, and 3 lost fumbles in the first 4 games last year when the Pats' OL was unsettled. OL makes a HUGE difference.

[1billsfan]

 

If Manuel doesn't win the competition, he's done here IMO. So then we'll have to start Cassel this year, and should have Manuel and the rookie fight for the backup position. Start the "rookie" QB in his 2nd year and cut ties with Manuel in 2016.

 

Not necessarily. If Cassel either gets hurt or gets benched because of poor play and Manuel looking better in practice, then EJ will have a final shot at showing something. If he looks good, then he won't be done. He'll finish the season as the starter and become a viable option for 2016.

Edited April 2, 2015 by 1billsfan

[QuoteTheRaven83]

 

Not necessarily. If Cassel either gets hurt or gets benched because of poor play and Manuel looking better in practice, then EJ will have a final shot at showing something. If he looks good, then he won't be done. He'll finish the season as the starter and become a viable option for 2016.

 

Manuel's confidence is going to be shattered if he doesn't win the starting job this year. Even if he comes in for an injured Cassel, you won't get a full year of EJ and you STILL won't know what you have in him. I feel this team needs to see him start all 16 games and see if he can learn from his mistakes and grow as a QB. Starting half the season won't cut it.

 

Like I've said before, EJ is the ONLY option at QB for us this year but who knows. I just dont think he has a future if he doesn't start this year.

[1billsfan]

 

Manuel's confidence is going to be shattered if he doesn't win the starting job this year. Even if he comes in for an injured Cassel, you won't get a full year of EJ and you STILL won't know what you have in him. I feel this team needs to see him start all 16 games and see if he can learn from his mistakes and grow as a QB. Starting half the season won't cut it.

 

Like I've said before, EJ is the ONLY option at QB for us this year but who knows. I just dont think he has a future if he doesn't start this year.

 

Even if EJ comes in and only starts the final two games he's not necessarily done. Why? Because he could throw 6 TDs in those games. That's the way NFL football is. If you show even a small slice of greatness at QB, a team will keep you as an option going into the following year. Especially if you have the size and athletic ability of Manuel. You think Whaley is going to cut EJ if he throws 6 TDs in the final two games? The guy who drafted him in the first round and was laughed at for doing so? Not a chance.

Edited April 2, 2015 by 1billsfan

[QuoteTheRaven83]

 

Even if EJ comes in and only starts the final two games he's not necessarily done. Why? Because he could throw 6 TDs in those games. That's the way NFL football is. If you show even a small slice of greatness at QB, a team will keep you as an option going into the following year. Especially if you have the size and athletic ability of Manuel. You think Whaley is going to cut EJ if he throws 6 TDs in the final two games? The guy who drafted him in the first round and was laughed at for doing so? Not a chance.

 

Because you ALREADY see it now that his lack of accuracy comes from hesitation in his reads, so what makes you think that'll change if he comes in for Cassel in the middle of the season? He only has 3 multi TD games in his career, and you think he's going just come right in and fire 6 TDs right away? Not happening. If Manuel progresses, I see it happening gradually which is why i keep saying that he needs to start the WHOLE season. From Week 1 to Week 17.

 

The kid needs reps and needs a coaching staff that will stick with him and that needs to be THIS year with a new coaching staff.

[FireChan]

that may be how you define "experience" but imo nothing compares to game experience. Regardless of why he didn't get the year of game experience, he got hurt, he got benched, the fact is that he does not have it. I don't think it is an excuse for him. He wasn't good enough to stay on the field last year. again, I agree with going to Orton when they did (for the short term, though in hindsight I do not know if it was the right decision for the long term). But he is very inexperienced for a 3rd year QB. I don't care how much time he got to throw in practice and look at film, that's not "experience" in my book. If others think he has 2 years of actual experience, that's fine, I do not agree. So when he is compared to guys who you think he should not be compared to (last year's rookies), that is why. They had similar (or more) game experience.

To your manziel example, yes, I would expect him to be compared to winston, Mariota, and any other rookie QBs if he plays this year. He has less than 2 games of experience.

 

I guess what I really meant was that the circumstances, expectations, and just about everything else is wildly different when comparing EJ's11th game and Carr's 11th game. Even with game experience being the most important.

 

I mean comparing Aaron Rodgers 11th game after sitting on the bench learning for three years to Derek Carr's 11th is a bit unfair to Carr, no?

[C.Biscuit97]

 

I guess what I really meant was that the circumstances, expectations, and just about everything else is wildly different when comparing EJ's11th game and Carr's 11th game. Even with game experience being the most important.

 

I mean comparing Aaron Rodgers 11th game after sitting on the bench learning for three years to Derek Carr's 11th is a bit unfair to Carr, no?

You are giving credit to Flacco for Baltimore's 11-5 record his rookie year when his defense gave up 9 less points that the Bills did Manuel's rookie year.

 

If the Bills gave up 15 points instead of 24 in 2013, Manuel would have more wins.

[1billsfan]

 

Because you ALREADY see it now that his lack of accuracy comes from hesitation in his reads, so what makes you think that'll change if he comes in for Cassel in the middle of the season? He only has 3 multi TD games in his career, and you think he's going just come right in and fire 6 TDs right away? Not happening. If Manuel progresses, I see it happening gradually which is why i keep saying that he needs to start the WHOLE season. From Week 1 to Week 17.

 

The kid needs reps and needs a coaching staff that will stick with him and that needs to be THIS year with a new coaching staff.

 

I was just giving you a scenario, it wasn't a prediction of what he would do given that scenario.

 

I honestly think that Cassel will have a very hard time beating out EJ. Now if he doesn't win the job, Manuel doesn't seem like the type of guy that gives up easily or be crushed. Dude's a hard worker. So if he did get a final shot during the season for what every reason, then who knows what he might do. Chances are he wouldn't throw 6 TDs, but the chance would be there and NFL football is a weird game.

Edited April 2, 2015 by 1billsfan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The OL did EJ no favors, but he made plenty of mistakes on his own.

 

You realize it works backwards right? Maybe we run the ball a little bit better if EJ plays better. The 90 different RB's Peyton and Brady have had would agree.

 

It doesn't even matter because Biscuit isn't arguing that poor O-line play leads to poor QB play. He's arguing that poor QB coaching led to poor QB play. Which I asked him to show me.

 

No one would deny EJ made mistakes on his own. The question is do we, or do we not, acknowledge that OL play affects QB play? A few posts ago you seemed to be making the argument that OL play does not affect QB play because they have different coaches. They have the same OC and HC and operate in the same scheme. Please make up your mind.

 

If EJ was the reason the run game sucked, it would improved when he was benched. It didn't. Yes, a good QB can open the running game, but so can a good OL.

 

It matters. I see Biscuit and myself as making the same argument: you assert that the problem with EJ is that he regressed in his 2nd year. We point out that a number of key offensive elements regressed (OL, RB, QB) and look for the common theme. That would be Hackett/Marrone.

 

So we'll see this season.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

I was just giving you a scenario, it wasn't a prediction of what he would do given that scenario.

 

I honestly think that Cassel will have a very hard time beating out EJ. Now if he doesn't win the job, Manuel doesn't seem like the type of guy that gives up easily or be crushed. Dude's a hard worker. So if he did get a final shot during the season for what every reason, then who knows what he might do. Chances are he wouldn't throw 6 TDs, but the chance would be there and NFL football is a weird game.

I hoep you're right. Because the idea of Cassel being our starter just kills my whole vibe for the season.

 

nothing against Cassel personally but he is who he is. We have 10 years of proof. Just like Orton.

[YoloinOhio]

 

I guess what I really meant was that the circumstances, expectations, and just about everything else is wildly different when comparing EJ's11th game and Carr's 11th game. Even with game experience being the most important.

 

I mean comparing Aaron Rodgers 11th game after sitting on the bench learning for three years to Derek Carr's 11th is a bit unfair to Carr, no?

the analogy doesn't work for me since rodgers sat on the bench for 45 games. EJ sat for 18, with 75 percent of that in his second year. That is why you would not see Carr's rookie year compared to Rodger's 4th (rookie) year but you do see Carr's rookie year compared to EJ's rookie year + 4 into his 2nd. Because they both played right away, and rodgers didn't. So no, I don't see the analogy like you do with that.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Joe Flacco went to the AFCCG his rookie year and lead his team to win 8 of their last 10 games to clinch a playoff berth. He was also the first rookie in NFL history to win two playoff games.

 

Research!

But the post is correct. I live in Maryland and Flacco like eli went through years of scrutiny and fans and media questioning if he could be the guy long term or not.

 

Much of Baltimore's success was created to the defense and running game.

[YoloinOhio]

But the post is correct. I live in Maryland and Flacco like eli went through years of scrutiny and fans and media questioning if he could be the guy long term or not.

 

Much of Baltimore's success was created to the defense and running game.

i remember the game where denver was at Baltimore in the reg season the year the Ravens ended up winning the SB. Flacco threw a pick 6 that went like the length of the field and the fans booed him mercilessly. He did not have a very good reg season. Then he got a little lucky with Rahim Moore falling down, didn't turn the ball over in the playoffs, and some huge plays by Boldin and it all came together. For the most part it seems he is better in the postseason than the reg season.

[FireChan]

 

No one would deny EJ made mistakes on his own. The question is do we, or do we not, acknowledge that OL play affects QB play? A few posts ago you seemed to be making the argument that OL play does not affect QB play because they have different coaches. They have the same OC and HC and operate in the same scheme. Please make up your mind.

 

If EJ was the reason the run game sucked, it would improved when he was benched. It didn't. Yes, a good QB can open the running game, but so can a good OL.

 

It matters. I see Biscuit and myself as making the same argument: you assert that the problem with EJ is that he regressed in his 2nd year. We point out that a number of key offensive elements regressed (OL, RB, QB) and look for the common theme. That would be Hackett/Marrone.

 

So we'll see this season.

I never made the argument that O-line play does not affect QB play.

You are giving credit to Flacco for Baltimore's 11-5 record his rookie year when his defense gave up 9 less points that the Bills did Manuel's rookie year.

 

If the Bills gave up 15 points instead of 24 in 2013, Manuel would have more wins.

Football is the ultimate team game. Maybe the Baltimore defense didn't allow those extra points because Flacco got one more first down or completed one more pass.

the analogy doesn't work for me since rodgers sat on the bench for 45 games. EJ sat for 18, with 75 percent of that in his second year. That is why you would not see Carr's rookie year compared to Rodger's 4th (rookie) year but you do see Carr's rookie year compared to EJ's rookie year + 4 into his 2nd. Because they both played right away, and rodgers didn't. So no, I don't see the analogy like you do with that.

Okay, maybe that analogy was a little bit of a stretch. You don't think there's a ton of value in TC and practice after playing in the NFL?

 

The way I see it is after 10 games, EJ had time to analyse his mistakes, watch his and others film, work on his mechanics, and try to improve himself. After 10 games with Carr, he had time to watch what his 11th opponent was gonna do. That's it.

Edited April 2, 2015 by FireChan

[KollegeStudnet]

Last night, I had the pleasure to serve one of the faculty that had EJ in her class. She had nothing but great words for EJ and not Winston.

 

She pointed out that she's a Bills fan because of EJ and of what an upstanding guy he is

[1billsfan]

I hoep you're right. Because the idea of Cassel being our starter just kills my whole vibe for the season.

 

nothing against Cassel personally but he is who he is. We have 10 years of proof. Just like Orton.

 

First thing for EJ is that I think it comes down to whether he can become a commanding presence in training camp. I expect you'll see a strong and serious demeanor from EJ this camp. Secondly, it kind of comes down to which QB will have the greatest improvement jump this training camp (I think they're even in terms of starting productivity level). That's where I think EJ will create some distance with Cassel in the battle for the starting job.

 

Another part of the decision is who has the X factor in their skill set to make plays down the stretch in a close game. I'd take EJ over Cassel every time at this point in their careers.

[YoloinOhio]

I never made the argument that O-line play does not affect QB play.

Football is the ultimate team game. Maybe the Baltimore defense didn't allow those extra points because Flacco got one more first down or completed one more pass.

Okay, maybe that analogy was a little bit of a stretch. You don't think there's a ton of value in TC and practice after playing in the NFL?

 

The way I see it is after 10 games, EJ had time to analyse his mistakes, watch his and others film, work on his mechanics, and try to improve himself. After 10 games with Carr, he had time to watch what his 11th opponent was gonna do. That's it.

There is value in everything they do but IMO actually playing in the games is the most significant value to a QB's development. Looking at this season, the best thing for his development would not to have been benched but to play the whole season. I am sure he gained some knowledge by being a backup, but it was no means an advantage IMO over actually playing. Unfortunately for him, his development was not the most important thing at stake this year. There are 53 players and a coaching staff who wanted to do whatever it took to win and I have no issue with that. The trade-off is, teams like the Jags and Raiders can roll their raw QBs out there week after week and let them "develop" without wringing their hands about the result or making the playoffs because they were in rebuild mode to begin with. EJ got drafted to a team that was already good enough that they weren't willing to roll the dice on his on-field development. I believe a lot of that had to do with the pressure on the staff and FO of keeping their jobs with new ownership. I think this year things will be much more stable, and the best QB in TC and PS will truly win the job. Last year EJ won by default because of the crap he "competed" with, and Orton was brought in in the 11th hour to "save the day" until he ended up looking just as bad as EJ did in his 2 games from hell. Anyway, the best thing for EJ last year didn't jibe with the best thing for the team overall. Although, we really have no idea whether the team would have gone 6-10, 9-7 or made the playoffs if he wasn't benched.

Edited April 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[FireChan]

There is value in everything they do but IMO actually playing in the games is the most significant value to a QB's development. Looking at this season, the best thing for his development would not to have been benched but to play the whole season. I am sure he gained some knowledge by being a backup, but it was no means an advantage IMO over actually playing. Unfortunately for him, his development was not the most important thing at stake this year. There are 53 players and a coaching staff who wanted to do whatever it took to win and I have no issue with that. The trade-off is, teams like the Jags and Raiders can roll their raw QBs out there week after week and let them "develop" without wringing their hands about the result or making the playoffs because they were in rebuild mode to begin with. EJ got drafted to a team that was already good enough that they weren't willing to roll the dice on his on-field development. I believe a lot of that had to do with the pressure on the staff and FO of keeping their jobs with new ownership. I think this year things will be much more stable, and the best QB in TC and PS will truly win the job. Last year EJ won by default because of the crap he "competed" with, and Orton was brought in in the 11th hour to "save the day" until he ended up looking just as bad as EJ did in his 2 games from hell. Anyway, the best thing for EJ last year didn't jibe with the best thing for the team overall. Although, we really have no idea whether the team would have gone 6-10, 9-7 or made the playoffs if he wasn't benched.

I'm talking about the time in between the first and second seasons, not his time on the bench.

[YoloinOhio]

I'm talking about the time in between the first and second seasons, not his time on the bench.

I don't think time spent watching film by himself in the offseason, informal workouts, OTAs or TC are more valuable than game experience. Though I am sure they all add value.