Are the Pegulas in Over Their Heads?

[stony]

Hey, Stony. I suggest you get down on your knees and pray like crazy he goes to Oak Land. If he goes to the Jets the Bills will likely pay for it.

Question. What is your take as to why in the entire knowledgable football world outside Marrone is considered a top head coach prospect? BTW, please don't even challenge the accuracy of that statement. If you pay attention to this sport you know it's true. And I don't mean some hack reporter for the NY post. I mean the Polians, Casserlys, Cowers, etc. of this world. Oh yeah, please don't give me the BS that they're old and the game has passed them by. That's truly BS. I'm serious that I would like your opinion on this.

I've never heard ex coaches/GMs that have turned into talking-heads belittle another head coach. It's a small fraternity that is more than willing to prop up their buddies. Remember, they've all had to deal with the "mean ole media" from time to time...Life's hard making 4 million a year and then having to listen to the meanies on the radio question your candidacy as a head coach...

 

And yes, there's been many un-named sources that have been mentioned in these articles that want to know Marrone is being treated as royalty. Take issue with the "un-named source" part, but nobody in the NFL world goes on record anymore to critique one of their buddies.

I'm capitulating to the "Doug's got friends in high places" line. His minions have infiltrated TBD.

[Doc]

Hey, Stony. I suggest you get down on your knees and pray like crazy he goes to Oak Land. If he goes to the Jets the Bills will likely pay for it.

Question. What is your take as to why in the entire knowledgable football world outside Marrone is considered a top head coach prospect? BTW, please don't even challenge the accuracy of that statement. If you pay attention to this sport you know it's true. And I don't mean some hack reporter for the NY post. I mean the Polians, Casserlys, Cowers, etc. of this world. Oh yeah, please don't give me the BS that they're old and the game has passed them by. That's truly BS. I'm serious that I would like your opinion on this.

In NJ, he won't have a great defense and STs to bail out a putrid offense. Oh wait, he'll build those up by himself. I forget.

 

Doc, so be it. Sorry for the cliche but we agree to disagree. BTW the fact that Marrone got no credit in WNY is why this episode is a case of mass hysteria. He deserved the lion's share actually by far. Personallythe burden of "proof" you ask for is part of this group psychotic delusion. Please check out my post above. Why is he seen, rightfully so, as a prime head coaching candidate in the knowledgable football world. Sadly the only place he seems to "suck" is in Bills nation.

 

I do appreciate the discussion. Know this. Clearly I believe Marrone was hung out to dry with no choice for him but to opt out. Clearly I believe this was lunacy and the guy should be praised and extended for what I see as a great job. I'm well aware I'm in the minority. But I'm a Bills fan and will totally support the new regime. My motivation for finally joining the board was that losing Marrone could be the dumbest thing this franchise has ever done.

Sorry Mojo but I need proof of your claim, not your insistence. Again just provide me a quote from someone, anyone, saying the defense was because of Marrone. If it's so obvious, there should at least be one. But the fact is that you can't because no one, not even Marrone himself, would dare to make such a claim.

 

But again, even if he was responsible for it, it's already been built and will still be directed by Schwartz. Unless you want to also claim that Marrone also called the plays on defense.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Wrong again Kelly. His last 2 years were winning records with 2 bowl wins. The criterion is met.

 

Yeah, I'm in Syracuse. So what. I'm a Bills fan. That's all you need to know Tuesday. Brilliant riposte! I'm in awe of you.

Hey bandit. With a crap O line and a cowardly sloth as the best option Marrone actually did a remarkable job with the offense. You tell me, seriously, what could he have done better with this?

Attacked bad run defenses with the run? Attacked bad pass defenses with the pass? They often did the reverse and tried to "do their thing" regardless of the opposition. It was tone deaf.

[Mojo44]

Kelly. WTF are you talking about? Of course when a HC takes over a bad program there is a high probability of an early losing season or two. That's what we call rebuilding. Typically it can't be done overnight. Ay the Cuse his first two seasons he had losing seasons but there were clearly promising signs. He was responsible for the losses and the gradual improving, I.e. changing the culture. Then, the next two years he turned the promise into reality with winning records and two bowl wins, when he left for the Bills the Cuse's fortunes were on the rise, I.e.upward trending. Thank you coach Marrone! Not to drag things out. In just TWO years HE has done the same with the Bills. He's not perfect and mishandled some things. And of course he's responsible for the seven losses. So:

 

In his only two head coaching stints he has taken two programs to either relevance or near relevance in a short time and upwardly trending. And, YES, my main point of all this that this change in the Bills is largely (I would capitalize the L) Marrone's doing. As head coach that his first and most important responsibility to reverse the pervasive losing mentality. He did it! That's what I'm saying with all this. Not, Schwartz, Not Whaley. Marrone did this because it was his , and only his, task to do. I hope this at least makes sense.

Well, everyone. Thanks for kind of listening. I had fun on the board for my first day.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

According to this board's favorite </sarcasm> reporter, Jerry Sullivan, they are:

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/jerry-sullivan/pegulas-are-learning-the-hard-way-20150104

 

I just find it hard to believe that two people with the brains and know-how to make billions could be as lost as Jerry would have us believe.

 

Sullivan said it. It must be true.

[dave mcbride]

In NJ, he won't have a great defense and STs to bail out a putrid offense. Oh wait, he'll build those up by himself. I forget.

 

 

Sorry Mojo but I need proof of your claim, not your insistence. Again just provide me a quote from someone, anyone, saying the defense was because of Marrone. If it's so obvious, there should at least be one. But the fact is that you can't because no one, not even Marrone himself, would dare to make such a claim.

 

But again, even if he was responsible for it, it's already been built and will still be directed by Schwartz. Unless you want to also claim that Marrone also called the plays on defense.

 

Not a fan of Marrone, but anyone who doesn't realize that building a good staff is a crucial part of being a good coach doesn't know coaching. They're the sort who don't believe Parcells belongs in the HOF. The bottom line: he brought in both pettine and schwartz. For that he should be applauded. Edited January 5, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm sure the owners would have preferred an uneventful transition. Good for then for calling the HC's bluff. As for the blood in the water, it's Sullivan's. That hack would cut open his own arm in a shatk tank for a story. Things are.a bit chaotic, but it's certainly not the end of the world.

 

New. Favorite. Quote.

[Kelly the Dog]

Not a fan of Marrone, but anyone who doesn't realize that building a good staff is a crucial part of being a good coach doesn't know coaching. They're the sort who don't believe Parcells belongs in the HOF. The bottom line: he brought in both pettine and schwartz. For that he should be applauded.

 

I agree he should get some credit. More so for Pettine. Schwartz was a no brainer, he wanted and walked into the job with no recruiting needed whatsoever. He was the easiest, obvious choice, and took no convincing. It would have been shocking if he wanted or considered any other job.

[Doc]

 

I agree he should get some credit. More so for Pettine. Schwartz was a no brainer, he wanted and walked into the job with no recruiting needed whatsoever. He was the easiest, obvious choice, and took no convincing. It would have been shocking if he wanted or considered any other job.

I agree. Pettine was a good choice and Schwartz was a no-brainer. But again, even if you want to give Marrone credit for the defense, Schwartz is (currently) still here and the defense is built.

[dave mcbride]

Can I just say how much I freaking hate the Cowboys? To watch effing Chris Christie doing a group hug with Jerry et al. after their ill-gotten victory was the most galling part.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Not a fan of Marrone, but anyone who doesn't realize that building a good staff is a crucial part of being a good coach doesn't know coaching. They're the sort who don't believe Parcells belongs in the HOF. The bottom line: he brought in both pettine and schwartz. For that he should be applauded.

 

True, Dis. Marrone did a number of things right:

1) hire quality defensive staff

2) let them do their Thang without his interference

3) hire a quality ST coach and keep players for ST (I was not in favor of Crossman last year, but I was wrong)

 

He did a number of things wrong:

1) Hire his buddy from 'cuse rather than a quality OC and OL coach

2) reportedly, mix it in too much himself on the OL. Hint to HC: if you find yourself needing to mix in to a position, either you aren't paying attention to something you, as HC, should be focusing on, or you don't have the right guy in position.

 

There are a number of puzzling decisions that we'll probably never know the truth of:

 

IMHO the "blood in the water" is largely a media creation being fanned and perpetuated by the media

[Hapless Bills Fan]

That's a fair point......but I was responding to you bemoaning the fact that the Pegulas haven't done a press conference to spell out their plan.

 

Meta question: How do you quote a quote, too?

 

The fair point to which you refer being that the Pegulas shouldn't have put themselves in a position where Polian could embarass them....I'd like to point out that football FO try to recruit former football greats all the time (Cowher etc), including Polian, and there's nothing particularly embarassing about being turned down when part of the deal falls through, even close to closing. Pegulas have said the right thing publically, Polian has said the right things publically. The embarassment has been all the anonymous media frothing. And I'm really not sure what the Pegulas could do to avoid putting themselves in the position to be subjected to anonymous media frothing? Long term, build a loyal organization where no one will seek self-aggrandizement or self-justification by "leaking" inside stuff to the media, but they only just took over?

I wouldn't be lamenting everything that has transpired recently to much, as I feel there is a lot of time left in the off season to add a team adviser / president for the football side of the operations. The time between when the playoffs end and the draft in April.

 

The Bills owners are involved in the coaching search does bother me a bit, but they could be involved just to say no thanks until they hire an adviser or team president. Bill Polian, Ron Wolf, Ernie Accorsi, and Charley Casserly aren't the only people on the planet who could be a senior adviser. Mike Holmgren, Bill Parcells, Carl Peterson etc, etc, etc.

 

The new owners could also be waiting for the playoffs to end to offer a job to someone like Packers GM Ted Thompson or Seahawks GM John Schneider and promote them to team president of football operations.

 

I guess we will just have to wait and see before we fling ourselves off a tall building.

 

If the Pegulas intend the coach to report directly to them (at least for now), don't they pretty much have to be involved in the interview process? I know I wouldn't take a job seriously if the person I'd be reporting to wasn't part of the interview process.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

 

What I want(ed) was for the Pegulas to hire a consultant on the day the purchase was official- an individual who could assess the state of affairs from a neutral vantage point then make recommendations regarding practices and personnel in the organization to the owner and then go away - his consultancy job would be finished. The owner would accept some of the recommendations, probably reject others, then hire a permanent employee as a "change agent" charged with carrying out the recommendations endorsed by the owner.

 

Too late for most of that now....

 

Why would you want them to do that during the midst of the season? Don't you think having someone with a position of power roaming through the building and reporting to the owner would be just a little bit disruptive?

 

Please keep in mind until the Oakland loss, the Bills were in contention to go to the playoffs for the first time in 14 years. Can't blame the Pegulas if they wanted to leave that process alone.

[bbb]

 

Why would you want them to do that during the midst of the season? Don't you think having someone with a position of power roaming through the building and reporting to the owner would be just a little bit disruptive?

 

Please keep in mind until the Oakland loss, the Bills were in contention to go to the playoffs for the first time in 14 years. Can't blame the Pegulas if they wanted to leave that process alone.

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Can we quote by putting a line here like I just did. This crap is too hard to read.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm sure the Pegulas have a plan and I'm sure they haven't shared it with Sully. So Sully's going to add 2+2 and come up with 6. It's what he does. 6 is always a more interesting answer than 4. (...)

 

I can't believe people still take Sully seriously. He's made it clear time and time again that he's not an objective, balanced reporter. He's someone who likes to stir the pot and here he goes again.

 

We've heard stories before that the Old Guard (Littman, Berchtold, Overdorf, and maybe a few others) viewed themselves as the heart of the team and weren't anxious to change things for a coach when we all know coaches come and go.

According to TG, Marrone's beef was mostly with the Old Guard, not so much with Whaley.

Rumor has it that Whaley himself has been frustrated with the Old Guard as he tries to change the organization.

Polian was fired because he had conflict with the Old Guard, particularly Littman. And this shows you how powerful the Old Guard was. When Ralph had to choose between the guy who built the Bills into a SB contender or the Old Guard, he chose the Old Guard.

Pegula needs to dismantle the Old Guard. And that's what he seems to be doing.

I don't see a circus. I see hope. We've known for a long time (since Polian was wrongly fired, at least) that OBD needs to change. Now we see signs of change. It's about time.

 

Hondo, good posts both of them. (I tried to edit to make the quote shorter, hope I didn't distort)

 

One small comment: while I'm sure conflict with Littman was part of the issue, another viewpoint is that it was primarily Wilson himself who couldn't get along with Polian. This interesting article recounts: Later that night, Levy went to Wilson’s hotel room and made a case for his friend, arguing that Polian was the best general manager in football, a superb personnel evaluator, a terrific negotiator, and one of the smartest people in the game. Wilson gave Levy a fatherly smile and said, “Marv, everything you said about Bill’s merits I agree with. But we just don’t get along.” I believe Polian more or less confirmed that he had a lot to do with his own firing in later years.

 

So I'm not sure that incident really shows the "power of the Old Guard"; they weren't the "Old Guard" then, most of them were people Polian and Wilson had hired in their remodel of the organization to build it into a winning franchise. Now, yes, they are the "Lifers" and powerful as Ralph relied on and even clung to them as the vestiges of the once-proud franchise in his waning years.

 

This doesn't take away from your main points, which are that Sully is a clueless pot-stirrer and that the Pegulas appear to be taking the right steps to move the franchise forward.

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Can we quote by putting a line here like I just did. This crap is too hard to read.

 

____________________

I'm sorry, bbb, I'm struggling with quoting at all

Edited January 5, 2015 by Hopeful

[Hapless Bills Fan]

If the team was looking good without one, why get one? Only after problems surfaced did he feel he might need one. And again, IMHO a football czar is overrated. Basically in this era it's all about finding a QB, which is no easy feat even for a "czar."

...and they usually stink.

 

And few people want to examine someone else's in any detail

Based on early returns my take is yes, the Pegulas are over their heads. Should have extended Marrone. Potentially catastrophic beginning. I guess they can only get better from here.

 

19 posts, eh? Joined yesterday at 9:47 eh? If not extending Marrone indicates "over their heads" I'd advise them to take a deep breath of fresh air.

 

But we agree on one thing - can only get better from here.

[bbb]

 

Hondo, good posts both of them. (I tried to edit to make the quote shorter, hope I didn't distort)

 

One small comment: while I'm sure conflict with Littman was part of the issue, another viewpoint is that it was primarily Wilson himself who couldn't get along with Polian. This interesting article recounts: Later that night, Levy went to Wilson’s hotel room and made a case for his friend, arguing that Polian was the best general manager in football, a superb personnel evaluator, a terrific negotiator, and one of the smartest people in the game. Wilson gave Levy a fatherly smile and said, “Marv, everything you said about Bill’s merits I agree with. But we just don’t get along.” I believe Polian more or less confirmed that he had a lot to do with his own firing in later years.

 

So I'm not sure that incident really shows the "power of the Old Guard"; they weren't the "Old Guard" then, most of them were people Polian and Wilson had hired in their remodel of the organization to build it into a winning franchise. Now, yes, they are the "Lifers" and powerful as Ralph relied on and even clung to them as the vestiges of the once-proud franchise in his waning years.

 

This doesn't take away from your main points, which are that Sully is a clueless pot-stirrer and that the Pegulas appear to be taking the right steps to move the franchise forward.

 

____________________

I'm sorry, bbb, I'm struggling with quoting at all

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Sorry - didn't mean you - just making a suggestion for everybody.

Wait - now quoting seems to be working!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Wrong! First thing 9-7. Best record in a decade. He was the head coach. That means he was the head coach of the D and ST. Final say on everything. EJ wasn't ready. Orton, a cowardly sloth with a decent arm was his only option. He absolutely deserved more time with the offense. In two years he led a total change in 2 of 3 fundamental components of the game. What he did with that offense was actually quite impressive given the circumstances....But let me repeat this because it's the bottom line: Marrone led the team to the best record in a decade with things clearly trending upwards. A dumb knee jerk response form the Pegulas.

What early returns? The offense, Marrone's specialty, was crap and they had to find a new starter after Marrone foolishly kept playing Orton. The rest of the team returns intact. The Bills are interviewing HC'ing candidates. There is nothing but good coming from this.

 

 

Doc didn't say most of this. Most of this is what you said, Mr. Joined-TBD-Yesterday-at-9:47-as-a-Marrone-apologist.

I will admit the quote function is difficult under the new skin but most manage it.

 

 

Let me repeat this because it's the bottom line: the defense and ST, led by Marrone-selected coordinators, really came on this year. He deserves credit for choosing good personnel and letting them do their thing.

 

For the offense, here are some points:

-Offense went from mid-NFL (14th) to lower third under Marrone/Hackett

-continuity of 4 starters on OL (Glenn, Wood, Urbik, Pears) who had been servicable and at times even nasty under Gailey

-FA acquisition and 3 draft picks for OL this year

-continuity of 2 running backs

-rushing attack has devolved from 5 ypa to 4.7 to 4.2 ypa even as # attempts has increased under Marrone (not an upward trend)

-addition of 4 WR widely recognized as better quality than WR under Gailey

-QB (Orton) career at least as good as Gailey starting QB (Fitz)

 

Doesn't look like trending in the right direction to me. Kinda looks like doing less with more or devolving/regressing

Edited January 5, 2015 by Hopeful

[PromoTheRobot]

To anyone who thinks the Sabres are a mess, click here.

 

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

[mannc]

To anyone who thinks the Sabres are a mess, click here.

 

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

I don't follow the Sabres anymore, but is it surprising that they have a lot of good prospects after picking "early and often in the past three drafts"? Is this fact due to TP's astute management of the franchise? I have no idea, but the linked article does not make me feel better about the immediate future of the Bills. Nice try, though.