1billsfan Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) >>>>>I have no complaints on Watkins. No offensive line. No running game. No QB. Worst offensive coordinator in football (or bottom 3) and still had a stellar season. If you don't like what you saw from Watkins, you need a new TV.<<<<< I hated the trade. Despised it, but there Is zero doubt that the kid is great and will get better if he stays healthy. But what do we do at qb? Cutler? Mallett? Got any ideas? EJ Manuel was brought along by the worst coaches imaginable. There's no disputing this fact. It doesn't mean that he's is the answer at QB. Just that he could be the starting QB if the Bills bring in real NFL offensive coaching and Manuel starts to flourish under the new coaches. I think the Bills will hire someone like Derrell Bevell or Frank Reich as their new head coach. It's possible they would hire Cards DC Todd Bowles as their new head coach if he has a great offensive coordinator in mind that would agree to come. I'm sure Bruce Arians knows OC talent and would suggest a very good one to him. Once they get the new coaches in here, they will probably look to add another QB to challenge Manuel for the starting spot. Someone like a Mark Sanchez. There is no magic bullet with the QB position. It's going to be Manuel, a not so good FA, or a 3rd-5th round QB from the coming draft. Basically you've got to put your hope in the new coach flipping the "switch" on Manuel. I believe that a great coach can do that and if he can't, there will be an acceptable plan B to at least finally get us in the playoffs. Edited December 26, 2014 by 1billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Maybe the "consultant" the Bills need is a Wall Street guy, not a football guy. Here is the thing: regardless of whether Watkins is/will be a star, the undisputed fact is that the 2014 draft was one of the deepest WR draft classes of recent history. This was widely discussed and understood prior to the draft, and has been borne out this season, as numerous rookie WRs are productive, emerging players. Because of the relative surplus of quality WRs in the 2014 draft, the "value" of each WR on draft day - and hence the price - was slightly reduced. Under those circumstances, general market principles dictate that you DON'T overpay for a surplus item. If the Bills had an investment banker making draft day decisions last May, one who knew little about football but understood that there was a surplus of WRs and that the Bills needed one, he most certainly would NOT have paid such a steep price to draft Watkins, even if (i) Watkins was the consensus #1 (he wasn't), and (ii) Watkins is a sure-fire superstar (he probably is, barring injury). That is because the Bills have limited assets and a number of key deficiencies. A skilled trader would likely have done the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the Bills did - he would have waited until the second or third round to draft a quality wide receiver, preserving the top draft choice (and next year's top draft choice) to target positions and players that were UNDERVALUED, and/or were of more limited quantity in the 2014 draft. Perhaps he even would have taken advantage of a GM or owner who was fixated on a particular WR and traded down from #9, acquiring additional draft assets in the process. Dibs, it doesn't matter whether Watkins becomes a star player. Let's assume he does. Drafting Watkins was still a poor strategic decision for the 2014 Bills. The Bills could not afford to pay such a steep price for a marginally better wide receiver in a receiver-rich draft. If the Pegulas hire a consultant with any business acumen whatsoever, Whaley may very well be on the outs. I'm telling you. (Of course, if Plan B really was Ebron and Kujo, Whaley deserves to be sh-canned, regardless.) http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/05/16/buffalo-bills-general-manager-doug-whaley-wall-street/2191723/ See the signature my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorom Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I have no issue at all with the trade for Sammy He is gonna be the Bills best WR of all time when its all said and done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 EJ Manuel was brought along by the worst coaches imaginable. There's no disputing this fact. It doesn't mean that he's is the answer at QB. Just that he could be the starting QB if the Bills bring in real NFL offensive coaching and Manuel starts to flourish under the new coaches. I think the Bills will hire someone like Derrell Bevell or Frank Reich as their new head coach. It's possible they would hire Cards DC Todd Bowles as their new head coach if he has a great offensive coordinator in mind that would agree to come. I'm sure Bruce Arians knows OC talent and would suggest a very good one to him. Once they get the new coaches in here, they will probably look to add another QB to challenge Manuel for the starting spot. Someone like a Mark Sanchez. There is no magic bullet with the QB position. It's going to be Manuel, a not so good FA, or a 3rd-5th round QB from the coming draft. Basically you've got to put your hope in the new coach flipping the "switch" on Manuel. I believe that a great coach can do that and if he can't, there will be an acceptable plan B to at least finally get us in the playoffs. I don't think there is a "switch" in Manuel. He is a very inaccurate QB on the short and medium range passes; that is the bread and butter of the NFL. If you can't make those throws consistently, your team has ZERO chance. I don't know how Manuel can improve his accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfk Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 Why not try and shop Sammy for a low 1 or a 2 this year? I'm sure he'd love to play for a decent QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finn Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 What was surprising to me about the way the pick happened was very Un-Steeler like. The Steelers hardly trade draft picks and let the draft come to them. If it was the Steelers, they are sitting and picking a Evans or Beckham at their slot or even trade down. Whaley having been in that system; it was surprising to see him do that. The Bills gambled a lot this season and lost. THe QB position, the RBs and the Offensive play calling sucked. It is a shame that we did not have a single 100-yard rushing from any RB the whole season. Here's an appalling thought: Maybe Whaley made the Watkins move in order to show he is independent of the Pittsburgh system, sorta like George W. Bush invading Iraq to prove his masculinity. He's protected for now because it's hard to accurately judge a draft so soon. But as early as next April, the sheer recklessness of his gamble may dawn on most fans. It won't be the abstract "next year's first-round pick" that he gave up; it'll be a dream guard, an exciting QB prospect or a fantastic right tackle. And we'll say to each other, "Ok, we gave up this guy AND this other pick who dropped to the fourth round for Watkins, when Odell--Odell!--was there for the taking?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/05/16/buffalo-bills-general-manager-doug-whaley-wall-street/2191723/ See the signature my friend. Well then he needs to back and re-read Liar's Poker. The lessons didn't take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) "PANIC" is not the right word. i'd say there were two motivating factors #1- survival - to swing for the fences knowing his window of oppurtunity to impress the Pegula's is short. #2- judgement - he truly feels Sammy will be an Elite talent and worth the premium he paid. my conclusion is that i always prefer to trade down, pick up an extra premium 2nd round pick and spread the injury risk and cap hit over two players. having said that, i think Sammy will be an All -Pro player after his third season. he is truly special. he was hindered this year with chit for QB's and the injury bug. Edited December 26, 2014 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 It's funny how people rip the Bills for being too conservative but then rip them for being aggressive. This is something I have thought about. I think one of the Biggest issues with the Bills organization is that they are stupid. They are aggressive at the wrong times. Trading up to get Sammy when there were several other receivers who have shown to be excellent players. I won't argue with whether Sammy will be the best out of all of them over the long term, because non of us knows that. I will say that the organization would most certainly be a better shape right now had they stayed put and taken OBJ because we would have an excellent WR and still have our #1. In my opinion, the talent evaluators on the team should have know that there was other elite talent out there at the WR position and known that they did not have to make the trade for Sammy and give up that 2016 #1 pick. I personally still have some suspicion that trading the 2015#1 pick might have been done as a bit a sabotage by Whalley and Co. Not having a #1 pick coming in to 2015 would most likely be looked at negatively by any GM candidate that the new owners would by interested in. So trading it away might atleast buy Whalley an extra year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I don't think there is a "switch" in Manuel. He is a very inaccurate QB on the short and medium range passes; that is the bread and butter of the NFL. If you can't make those throws consistently, your team has ZERO chance. I don't know how Manuel can improve his accuracy. You may be right, but we don't know yet. The truth is that if there is a switch, that switch won't ever go on with Marrone and Hackett here. I truly believe that Manuel has the ability to get to a "Joe Flacco" level of franchise QB. What he lacks in accuracy can be mitigated by our receivers who have a large pass catching radius, adding a real TE threat, and actually throwing the ball deep (whether it's caught or not, loosens things up for the RBs in the running game). While Manuel isn't as accurate as Flacco, he has the running ability to extend plays and a new coach will have to coach Manuel to use his legs as the ultimate plan B of passing plays that go wrong. What Marrone didn't do was challenge defenses vertically. Even if it isn't complete, it gives breathing room to a suffocating running and 3 yard passing game. NFL defenses know before the snap that every Bills play will be within the 10 yard sticks whether it's a run or pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 You may be right, but we don't know yet. The truth is that if there is a switch, that switch won't ever go on with Marrone and Hackett here. I truly believe that Manuel has the ability to get to a "Joe Flacco" level of franchise QB. What he lacks in accuracy can be mitigated by our receivers who have a large pass catching radius, adding a real TE threat, and actually throwing the ball deep (whether it's caught or not, loosens things up for the RBs in the running game). While Manuel isn't as accurate as Flacco, he has the running ability to extend plays and a new coach will have to coach Manuel to use his legs as the ultimate plan B of passing plays that go wrong. What Marrone didn't do was challenge defenses vertically. Even if it isn't complete, it gives breathing room to a suffocating running and 3 yard passing game. NFL defenses know before the snap that every Bills play will be within the 10 yard sticks whether it's a run or pass. I agree with this. A good, mobile line, outlet TEs, solid running game, and downfield/rollout passing game, and Manuel can win like Flacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I agree with this. A good, mobile line, outlet TEs, solid running game, and downfield/rollout passing game, and Manuel can win like Flacco. He may not ever be able to win the "shootout" games, but to me he does seem like a guy who could be coached up to consistently put up 17-24 points a game which is good enough for 10-12 wins with a top 3 defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLizzyMeock Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 So tired of listening to people just complain about every move the bills make. I'm just glad they're making moves instead of being the conservative tight wads of the past. This roster has the most talent it's had in years. Lets see how they address oline, te, and qb moving forward. Nothing was wasted on Watkins. #gobills My only problem was how bag they whiffed on both guards they drafted.... lookin like complete busts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfk Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 You may be right, but we don't know yet. The truth is that if there is a switch, that switch won't ever go on with Marrone and Hackett here. I truly believe that Manuel has the ability to get to a "Joe Flacco" level of franchise QB. What he lacks in accuracy can be mitigated by our receivers who have a large pass catching radius, adding a real TE threat, and actually throwing the ball deep (whether it's caught or not, loosens things up for the RBs in the running game). While Manuel isn't as accurate as Flacco, he has the running ability to extend plays and a new coach will have to coach Manuel to use his legs as the ultimate plan B of passing plays that go wrong. What Marrone didn't do was challenge defenses vertically. Even if it isn't complete, it gives breathing room to a suffocating running and 3 yard passing game. NFL defenses know before the snap that every Bills play will be within the 10 yard sticks whether it's a run or pass. You sir (EJ) are no Joe Flacco..If I was Flacco I'd be quite insuted...He can throw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) "The Pegulas' first order of business will be deciding whether to keep General Manager Doug Whaley and coach Doug Marrone. Apparently, tension mounted between the two during the season. Some inside the organization believe that their working relationship is beyond repair." http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/bucky-gleason/pegulas-have-decisions-to-make-soon-20141225 Fwiw, I am absolutely convinced that Manuel was Whaley's pick. He is the guy who scouted him personally in the rain at FSU in Feb 2013, and he was almost definitely the Bills guy who was quoted by SI at Barkley's USC workout, saying that his arm was unimpressive. He wanted a big arm, and when Manuel was drafted, he went on about how good it was. Edited December 26, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Interesting. Does Bucky's piece mean that a change must be made? I get beyond repair, but does that mean they cannot work together? Seems like that would be the case. Not sure who would win here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) Interesting. Does Bucky's piece mean that a change must be made? I get beyond repair, but does that mean they cannot work together? Seems like that would be the case. Not sure who would win here. I happen to think Marrone has a better chance of staying, but I honestly don't know. Interesting comment nonetheless, and it suggests that something is about to happen. Edited December 26, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I agree with this. A good, mobile line, outlet TEs, solid running game, and downfield/rollout passing game, and Manuel can win like Flacco. And if Manuel fixes his mechanics enough to be an accurate passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 (edited) Why not try and shop Sammy for a low 1 or a 2 this year? I'm sure he'd love to play for a decent QB. i hope you're being silly here. the point is we never needed to shop anything in order to get as top rookie receiver and a decent 2015 1st rd pick. shop him now and you might get one but never the other. this clearly illustrates the error of the trade. now if someone was to trade the 15th pick this year and the 2016 1st rd pick of a perennial loser for watkins… ya think any team would be willing to make that trader now? Edited December 26, 2014 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 If Watkins becomes a perrennial all-pro - which he clearly has the talent to be - how will people feel then? He's a freaking good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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