$15 Minimum Wage Battle Moves To Other Industries

[TakeYouToTasker]

6 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

You’re an idiot talking out your ass again. As per usual. And it’s not worth my time. You’re an idiot, the guy you were arguing with is right. 

 

Keep on rocking tho, message board hero. 

 

Again, stop talking about things you don't understand.  You are so far out of your depth here that it's becoming absurd.

 

You're completely embarrassing yourself.

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Again, stop talking about things you don't understand.  You are so far out of your depth here that it's becoming absurd.

 

You're completely embarrassing yourself.

 

You’re a freaking idiot who’s pounding the table on behalf of the 18 year old kid who wants to become wealthy by working 40 years for Amazon in an entry level position. That’s something that doesn’t exist. What does exist is the single mother of 2, working at Amazon who needs every dollar NOW. You say you work with money but you can’t grasp the importance of present value to future present value, because you’re a phony. You’re a liar. And an idiot. Like, you can write — and god only knows how much time you spend editing your posts and thesaurusing — but you weigh in ignorantly on a lot of easy/simple things and completely misunderstand them. Amazon is still using equities for its mid-level and up which just destroys your idiotic point about the young guy who just wants to retire wealthy after 40 years of packing boxes — which isn’t a thing. The immediate benefits to the low income workers there will be far greater than some anual stock dump that their circumstance will force them to sell once it vests. 

 

Youre an idiot. You’re uneducated. You’re a googler who trys to tut-tut around acting like ya know some ****. 

 

In the army we called !@#$s like you barracks lawyers. People who think they know some **** till they run up against people who do know. 

 

Youre a phony. A schmuck. 

 

‘Everybody says so.’?

[DC Tom]

Chucklehead.

[TakeYouToTasker]

2 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

You’re a freaking idiot who’s pounding the table on behalf of the 18 year old kid who wants to become wealthy by working 40 years for Amazon in an entry level position. That’s something that doesn’t exist. What does exist is the single mother of 2, working at Amazon who needs every dollar NOW. You say you work with money but you can’t grasp the importance of present value to future present value, because you’re a phony. You’re a liar. And an idiot. Like, you can write — and god only knows how much time you spend editing your posts and thesaurusing — but you weigh in ignorantly on a lot of easy/simple things and completely misunderstand them. Amazon is still using equities for its mid-level and up which just destroys your idiotic point about the young guy who just wants to retire wealthy after 40 years of packing boxes — which isn’t a thing. The immediate benefits to the low income workers there will be far greater than some anual stock dump that their circumstance will force them to sell once it vests. 

 

Youre an idiot. You’re uneducated. You’re a googler who trys to tut-tut around acting like ya know some ****. 

 

In the army we called !@#$s like you barracks lawyers. People who think they know some **** till they run up against people who do know. 

 

Youre a phony. A schmuck. 

 

‘Everybody says so.’?

 

You are so far beyond dopey that it's hilarious.

 

You are, once again, lauding the decision to compensate to the lowest common denominator (poor decision makers who are pay day rich, and demand instant gratification); and championing the decision to remove equity compensation for low level workers whom are responsible and frugal.  Those people do exist, en mass, and you're literally advocating for their livelihoods to be worse.

 

Stop talking about things you don't understand.

 

[Deranged Rhino]

9 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Stop talking about things you don't understand.

 

 

If he did that he wouldn't be about to talk at all.

 

...which would be a boon for the board, but I digress. 

[keepthefaith]

5 hours ago, The_Dude said:

 

I disagree. 

 

Wages have stagnated for years, and the reason it hasn’t bitten the rich in the ass is financing. But when the impoverished become too poor for even financing, then were screwed. I believe raising the minimum wage responsibly wards that threat off. 

 

Raising the MW to $15 per hour will mean employing fewer people and will make it harder for young first time workers to get a job if 16-year olds also have to be paid $15. Companies if forced to pay more won't necessarily increase their payroll expenditures.  Many will find ways to reduce headcount or hours or other benefit costs.  Low skilled workers will find employment tougher. 

 

Good for Amazon if they want to go to $15.  I'm sure their calculus is that for a $15/hr wage they'll demand and retain the better performing people and that there is a return on the investment in their particular org.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by keepthefaith

[The_Dude]

1 hour ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

You are so far beyond dopey that it's hilarious.

 

You are, once again, lauding the decision to compensate to the lowest common denominator (poor decision makers who are pay day rich, and demand instant gratification); and championing the decision to remove equity compensation for low level workers whom are responsible and frugal.  Those people do exist, en mass, and you're literally advocating for their livelihoods to be worse.

 

Stop talking about things you don't understand.

 

 

Why am I arguing when you're an idiot and I'm right?

 

As of right now the average Amazon worker makes $13 an hour and receives equity of around $2,000 in value annually. If this person works a 40 hour work week their take is $27,040 (less payroll taxes) and then they get $2,000 that they cant do ANYTHING with till it vests. So, when the employee gets the equity of $2k it only has a present value of about $1946. Lump that package together and you're at: $28,986 for the year.

 

Now, same person gets a pay raise to $15 and no annual equity and we're at $31,200. That means even if the employee wants stock THAT THEY'RE BETTER OFF, YOU GODDAMN IDIOT. See, they can then take $2k out of their earnings to buy the stock that they no longer get and they're still coming out better.

You're a freaking idiot. You CLEARLY do not work with money -- unless somebody's handing it to you through a window. You're a moron. The math says you're an idiot. 

6 minutes ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Raising the MW to $15 per hour will mean employing fewer people and will make it harder for young first time workers to get a job if 16-year olds also have to be paid $15. Companies if forced to pay more won't necessarily increase their payroll expenditures.  Many will find ways to reduce headcount or hours or other benefit costs.  Low skilled workers will find employment tougher. 

 

Good for Amazon if they want to go to $15.  I'm sure their calculus is that for a $15/hr wage they'll demand and retain the better performing people and that there is a return on the investment in their particular org.  

 

As a business owner I gotta tell ya I fear the approaching day when even with financing low income families cant afford my goods and services. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by The_Dude

[billsfan89]

15 and hour as a national minimum wage is way too high. That's not to say that in certain areas of the country like NYC and LA that 15 isn't a fair minimum wage. But once you get into lower cost of living areas 15 an hour isn't just a living wage it is a lower middle class or better wage at an individual level. I think a lot of people who advocate for a 15 dollar an hour federal minimum wage do not understand the lower cost of living in a lot of other areas of the country. 

 

Although I do tend to agree that the federal minimum wage is due for an increase. If you adjusted the federal minimum wage for inflation it would be 8.75 an hour. Right now I think we could probably raise the federal minimum wage to somewhere between 9.50 and 10 dollars an hour phasing it in over 3-4 years. All reputable economic studies show that lower to modest increases to the minimum wage help job growth. It's when you do insanely high increases in too short a span that it hurts job growth. 

 

Another point to make is that you can't use automation as an excuse to keep wages low. Unless you want no minimum wage (Which would have a horribly depressing effect on wages) then robots are always going to be able to outperform humans cheaper. Robots have a 3 dollar an hour cost, so why would keeping the minimum wage at 7.25 prevent robots from taking that job if they do it for 4.25 an hour cheaper?

[KRC]

14 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

 So, when the employee gets the equity of $2k it only has a present value of about $1946. 

 

(I am going to regret this). Can you explain this to me? Please show the math. Thank you.

[TakeYouToTasker]

25 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Why am I arguing when you're an idiot and I'm right?

 

As of right now the average Amazon worker makes $13 an hour and receives equity of around $2,000 in value annually. If this person works a 40 hour work week their take is $27,040 (less payroll taxes) and then they get $2,000 that they cant do ANYTHING with till it vests. So, when the employee gets the equity of $2k it only has a present value of about $1946. Lump that package together and you're at: $28,986 for the year.

 

Now, same person gets a pay raise to $15 and no annual equity and we're at $31,200. That means even if the employee wants stock THAT THEY'RE BETTER OFF, YOU GODDAMN IDIOT. See, they can then take $2k out of their earnings to buy the stock that they no longer get and they're still coming out better.

You're a freaking idiot. You CLEARLY do not work with money -- unless somebody's handing it to you through a window. You're a moron. The math says you're an idiot.  

 

...

 

ALOL

 

That's not how any of this works.

 

Nevermind that your math doesn't include differences in strategic taxation, but you've also included a ton of poor assumptions.

 

$13/hour is an average.  Warehouse workers start at $11/hour, but a large percentage earn $15 or more per hour already because they've been with the company for years.

 

For them, losing the stock options plan, along with the behavior incentive bonus (which pays for attendance, and productivity benchmarks IE:  the good employees) which paid them out 8% of their salary monthly, and 16% of salary during the months of November and December, does a tremendous amount of harm to their personal bottom lines.

 

Again, like I said, this decision caters to the lowest common denominator:  the pay day rich, and those who demand immediate gratification; along with entry level employees.

 

This is a political decision made for optics, not one that benefits the employees.

 

Anyone working at Amazon who was already compensated near or above $15/hour was hurt by this decision to the tune of roughly $3k-$6k annually.

 

So, again, kindly shut the !@#$ up you ignorant muppet.

 

You don't understand the subject matter.

Edited October 5, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[DC Tom]

28 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Why am I arguing when you're an idiot and I'm right?

 

As of right now the average Amazon worker makes $13 an hour and receives equity of around $2,000 in value annually. If this person works a 40 hour work week their take is $27,040 (less payroll taxes) and then they get $2,000 that they cant do ANYTHING with till it vests. So, when the employee gets the equity of $2k it only has a present value of about $1946. Lump that package together and you're at: $28,986 for the year.

 

Now, same person gets a pay raise to $15 and no annual equity and we're at $31,200. That means even if the employee wants stock THAT THEY'RE BETTER OFF, YOU GODDAMN IDIOT. See, they can then take $2k out of their earnings to buy the stock that they no longer get and they're still coming out better.

You're a freaking idiot. You CLEARLY do not work with money -- unless somebody's handing it to you through a window. You're a moron. The math says you're an idiot. 

 

As a business owner I gotta tell ya I fear the approaching day when even with financing low income families cant afford my goods and services. 

 

You're using cash accounting on a vesting asset of variable rate to compare it to income?  You're ignoring the difference between income and capital gains tax rates?  You're ignoring every other Amazon practice regarding Tier 1 employees (MOT, VCP, etc.?)

 

You dumbass. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

2 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

You're using cash accounting on a vesting asset of variable rate to compare it to income?  You're ignoring the difference between income and capital gains tax rates?  You're ignoring every other Amazon practice regarding Tier 1 employees (MOT, VCP, etc.?)

 

You dumbass. 

 

He's well beyond standard dumbassery.

 

He's the !@#$ing gold standard.

 

It's hard to imagine someone who understand less about compensation packages; a modern day Jack Spriggins, and yet somehow he desires to be extraordinarily vocal in his devout ignorance.

 

I'd honestly be embarrassed for him if I didn't think he completely deserved to look every inch of the fool he is.

[KRC]

19 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

You're using cash accounting on a vesting asset of variable rate to compare it to income?  You're ignoring the difference between income and capital gains tax rates?  You're ignoring every other Amazon practice regarding Tier 1 employees (MOT, VCP, etc.?)

 

You dumbass. 

 

I wanted him to show the math .Thanks for ruining my day, bastard. ?   

 

[Azalin]

2 minutes ago, KRC said:

 

I wanted him to show the math .Thanks for ruining my day, bastard. ?   

 

 

But you've got to admit that it's still an entertaining exchange, even without the math.

[TakeYouToTasker]

3 minutes ago, KRC said:

 

I wanted him to show the math .Thanks for ruining my day, bastard. ?   

 

 

Don't worry.  He doesn't understand the subject matter, so everything Tom wrote may as well have been written in hieroglyphics.

 

You'll still get to have your fun.

[KRC]

2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

Don't worry.  He doesn't understand the subject matter, so everything Tom wrote may as well have been written in hieroglyphics.

 

You'll still get to have your fun.

 

I wanted to see how he calculated the present value of something that hasn't vested yet. I also wanted to know what strike price he was using, as well as the assumed rate of return on a stock with a 3-year beta of 1.73 (had to look it up for AMZN).

[The_Dude]

30 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

You're using cash accounting on a vesting asset of variable rate to compare it to income?  You're ignoring the difference between income and capital gains tax rates?  You're ignoring every other Amazon practice regarding Tier 1 employees (MOT, VCP, etc.?)

 

You dumbass. 

 

No. No, I'm not. I didn't do that at all. What I stated was Retards point is retarded because the $15 wage gives the average employee more income in terms of present value that they can then invest however they freaking want. 

Just now, KRC said:

 

I wanted to see how he calculated the present value of something that hasn't vested yet. I also wanted to know what strike price he was using, as well as the assumed rate of return on a stock with a 3-year beta of 1.73 (had to look it up for AMZN).

 

I did not look up the beta. I'm not going that far into it.

[Deranged Rhino]

1 minute ago, The_Dude said:

 

No. No, I'm not. I didn't do that at all.

 

You did. 

 

You're just proving too stupid to even know what it is YOU write.  

[TakeYouToTasker]

2 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

No. No, I'm not. I didn't do that at all. What I stated was Retards point is retarded because the $15 wage gives the average employee more income in terms of present value that they can then invest however they freaking want. 

 

I did not look up the beta. I'm not going that far into it.

 

It should cause actual physical pain to be this stupid.

[KRC]

4 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

No. No, I'm not. I didn't do that at all. What I stated was Retards point is retarded because the $15 wage gives the average employee more income in terms of present value that they can then invest however they freaking want. 

 

I did not look up the beta. I'm not going that far into it.

 

Can you explain how you can determine the present value of a non-specified investment?