Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Does anyone care to address my comment up-thread about the obvious improvement in the Bills' mental and physical toughness since Marrone arrived? Am I incorrect? And if we agree this is the case, how does that mesh with concerns about Marrone rubbing players the wrong way? Maybe the change is because Whaley brought in guys like Spikes and Boobie Dixon and Graham and Watkins and Brown and Duke Williams and Marrone stopped his petty mind games with guys like Nigel Bradham. Because remember, guns don't kill people, Nigel Bradham kills people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Maybe the change is because Whaley brought in guys like Spikes and Boobie Dixon and Graham and Watkins and Brown and Duke Williams and Marrone stopped his petty mind games with guys like Nigel Bradham. Because remember, guns don't kill people, Nigel Bradham kills people. Like you, Dog, I'm conflicted regarding Saint Doug at this point -- but not because of stories about mind games with players or a fear that he won't play the best player out of pride or spite (which would be career suicide). I'm not sold because of how he has handled the offensive strategy for this team, given their personnel limitations on the line. If, as I suspect, the offense improves significantly over the 2nd half of the season as Hackett makes better use of his new "professional" QB, then I'll be in Saint Doug's corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Like you, Dog, I'm conflicted regarding Saint Doug at this point -- but not because of stories about mind games with players or a fear that he won't play the best player out of pride or spite (which would be career suicide). I'm not sold because of how he has handled the offensive strategy for this team, given their personnel limitations on the line. If, as I suspect, the offense improves significantly over the 2nd half of the season as Hackett makes better use of his new "professional" QB, then I'll be in Saint Doug's corner. That's my biggest worry, too. I hope Marrone and Hackett come to their senses. Maybe Orton will feel comfortable enough to look at Marrone and Hackett and say, "That's a crap offense. Let's open it up." And they will be smart enough to listen. Edited October 30, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Ps. As usual, GG is wrong. Go B word and moan somewhere else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Too much here to comment on, so I'll just focus on the one point with which I agree the most: My crew and I speak on this weekly; this is a hugely physical football team. They hit people; they hurt people. Add up the names of the fallen opponents: Slausson, Garza, Moreno, D. Brown, D. Woodhead, Megatron, Mayo, Ridley, etc. This has become a team that, for a variety of reasons, is difficult to face. and to think when i started this as a topic i was chastised .whatever. You cannot not notice the Bills team we are watching is much more physical . Plays to the whistle and plays like a team on fire lately. It's across the board too. Even EJ and Mike Williams have been on the sideline cheering. I think this team believes in itself after the change up to Kyle Orton. Putting Urbik in is another solid adjustment. Simon , I am giving everyone till the end of the year to make solid judgements. Maybe this Team is still in transition. and trending up ! I would like to thank you for posting your heart up here on the boards for us to discuss ! Go Bills ps it was alot of words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Does anyone care to address my comment up-thread about the obvious improvement in the Bills' mental and physical toughness since Marrone arrived? Am I incorrect? And if we agree this is the case, how does that mesh with concerns about Marrone rubbing players the wrong way? I hope i did that upthread ^ i have no problem with him making personal projects out of players . Like Woods. And lets not call the Mike Williams story " over yet ". As Simon says , this is a halfway way thread ! Urbik is a mystery but he came out and played well. so i don't care what is behind the scenes . Marrone told Mike Williams it's his NFL career on the line. I am not going to link it but someone who cares enough will quote Mike saying that before the season began. So he knows he has to work harder than everyone else . Just like Hogan did. Season is at mid point we are 5-3 won the last game against a divisional trap game . PattMann you have taken up the fight that doesn't need to be fought . But you have done a fine job defending the honor. Go Bills ! Can't a coach instill physical and mental toughness without needlessly alienating important veteran players? Marrone kept Urbik on the shelf simply to prove a point, and allowed the on-field product to suffer - again, simply to show who's boss. That isn't the way to instill toughness. It's the Greg Schiano One-And-Done Special. I dont understand how Anyone can reach this conclusion ! Like you, Dog, I'm conflicted regarding Saint Doug at this point -- but not because of stories about mind games with players or a fear that he won't play the best player out of pride or spite (which would be career suicide). I'm not sold because of how he has handled the offensive strategy for this team, given their personnel limitations on the line. If, as I suspect, the offense improves significantly over the 2nd half of the season as Hackett makes better use of his new "professional" QB, then I'll be in Saint Doug's corner. THIS ! well said Sir well said indeed. I have reached the same state of mind.Sanity has arrived friends ! and his name is Eball. ( is that a contradiction ? ; ) Go B word and moan somewhere else... LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Go B word and moan somewhere else... Did I tell you about the 5 things I hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Urbik is a mystery but he came out and played well. so i don't care what is behind the scenes . I dont understand how Anyone can reach this conclusion ! So you have no idea why Urbik was benched until last week.....yet you "don't understand" how anyone can even think it might be for reasons other than poor performance. This makes no sense. Do you really think that Urbik was on the bench because Marrone wasn't really sure he was better than the guards playing ahead of him? Really?? Well, the only other explanation is that he was benched for reasons other than ability--in other words, "to teach him a lesson" or some cliche. Same for Williams--do you really think Marrone isn't sure whether Williams is a more gifted and skilled WR than...Hogan?? Of course not. He's in the dog house too. I don't know what you don't understand here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Love the whole original post! I agree with everything!! Edited October 31, 2014 by Manther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) If the Bills really want to be committed to the run, repeatedly jamming it into the interior OLine for minimal gains (and minimal risk) is probably the safest way to go about it. If we’re going to really give Hackett the business, maybe we ought to consider questioning his strategic thinking instead of his tactical yes.. this is where I find him lacking. I don't believe he or Marrone have a strategic offensive plan after abandoning the EJ playbook. they need to play to their strengths, which now include a veteran QB and a playmaking receiver. every game they should make it their priority to stretch the D with the weapons Whaley's assembled, in order to open up the running game. They haven't adapted their strategy beyond their original 'keep EJ in manageable down and distance situations'. things have changed for the better, and they're not taking advantage.. they need to adopt a new plan.. one that allows them to execute tactics that can produce more with less risk than when the season started with a virtual rookie at QB. we should be challenging our opponents, and change tactics only in response to how we're defended. there's no plan.. no strategy.. what's Buffalo's offensive identity? great post, Simon.. hopefully Marrone and Hackett can answer this in the second half Edited October 31, 2014 by BackInDaDay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yo Simon !! Hit and run is not fair. You started this with an analytical post, got us posters all happy and bitchy then you disappear again. Come back and finish the discussion. BTW, no words on the QB situation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 yes.. this is where I find him lacking. I don't believe he or Marrone have a strategic offensive plan after abandoning the EJ playbook. they need to play to their strengths, which now include a veteran QB and a playmaking receiver. every game they should make it their priority to stretch the D with the weapons Whaley's assembled, in order to open up the running game. They haven't adapted their strategy beyond their original 'keep EJ in manageable down and distance situations'. things have changed for the better, and they're not taking advantage.. they need to adopt a new plan.. one that allows them to execute tactics that can produce more with less risk than when the season started with a virtual rookie at QB. we should be challenging our opponents, and change tactics only in response to how we're defended. there's no plan.. no strategy.. what's Buffalo's offensive identity? great post, Simon.. hopefully Marrone and Hackett can answer this in the second half I pretty much agree with this, especially the no offensive identity. Last year I wasn't upset because we were an obvious running team and balanced it out sort of, with the passing game, that was the challenge. The O line is the cause, they have got to get these guys working together or it will stay the way it is. Run run pass and play not to lose, isn't a good identity or strategy and we see it way to often which is why people say they are predictable (I am not just talking about the Jests game). They need more of their strengths highlighted or they will lose more than they should. The team needs to use quick plays, qb under center, slants, in the flat, I formations, mis-direction, play action, more often, things that mask the weak line. That would help with both facets of the game. There is a nice bunch of plays every week but they don't stick with what is working enough. They should be able to do better and I hope they do. Blowing up the coaching staff would be too bad in the lack of consistency (which frankly has gotten us to where we are) and the hope should be that they won't have to. I hate to say it but I feel the same way I did when Jauron was in his second season and Chan was in his third. But there is still hope, it could just be the "hey I am a Bills fan, this is what we expect" coming out of me. The team has some real talent this time though, that is the difference, if the coaching can get it together better, they could get into and go deep in the POs and that is what we all want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I pretty much agree with this, especially the no offensive identity. Last year I wasn't upset because we were an obvious running team and balanced it out sort of, with the passing game, that was the challenge. The O line is the cause, they have got to get these guys working together or it will stay the way it is. Run run pass and play not to lose, isn't a good identity or strategy and we see it way to often which is why people say they are predictable (I am not just talking about the Jests game). They need more of their strengths highlighted or they will lose more than they should. While I fully agree with playing to your strengths and masking weak areas, I am not too hot on this 'offensive identity' stuff. I want our offense to be versatile (which I believe we are) and flexible. Saying and sticking to 'we are a run first team' or equivalent does not factor in the strength of the opposition and the game situation. Maybe the Jets game was an extreme example of plenty of turnovers by the opposition and weak QB play but it does serve to indicate that we have to be able to do offense according to what the opponent is good or weak at. Sure we have some weaknesses but in general we are very balanced on both O and D. I think with continued steady QB play and IF we improve the interior of the O, we have a legitimate shot at the playoffs while taking out some big names in the process. But both the above are very big IFs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I hate to say it but I feel the same way I did when Jauron was in his second season and Chan was in his third. But there is still hope, it could just be the "hey I am a Bills fan, this is what we expect" coming out of me. The team has some real talent this time though, that is the difference, if the coaching can get it together better, they could get into and go deep in the POs and that is what we all want. All that really needs to happen is for Marrone/Hackett to come to grips with what they have and play to those strengths, rather than trying to force a square peg (power running game) into a round hole (poor interior OL). This team really is light years beyond the Jauron/Gailey teams in terms of talent (as you note). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 So you have no idea why Urbik was benched until last week.....yet you "don't understand" how anyone can even think it might be for reasons other than poor performance. This makes no sense. Do you really think that Urbik was on the bench because Marrone wasn't really sure he was better than the guards playing ahead of him? Really?? Well, the only other explanation is that he was benched for reasons other than ability--in other words, "to teach him a lesson" or some cliche. Same for Williams--do you really think Marrone isn't sure whether Williams is a more gifted and skilled WR than...Hogan?? Of course not. He's in the dog house too. I don't know what you don't understand here. I dont know why Urbik was not playing till the Jets game. and thats reinforced by how much better he played than Richardson the rookie .Thats what i dont get. Hogan has earned his way with his diligent hard work Marrone has said as much. I dont agree that Mike can just walk in and be given the spot. I would guess Coach Marrone wants him to work his ass off and prove it everyday. I agree with yo , i do less then satisfactory in making any points i may have in mind. You have me there Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Good thread, and agree with a lot Simon had to say. The Bills D is more physical, and a top ten ranked unit even without Kiko, and I attribute that to Schwartz. Now imagine that D with Kiko next year! I'm no longer sold on Marrone, Hackett as the O line is much worse then it has been in the past, and the run game has gotten worse. Far, far to many penalties, and stupid mistakes by players who should know better. If not for Kyle Orton I highly doubt this team is 5-3, more like 3-5 and another lost season. Then looking at the fact he has no top O line or run game to support him, and the play calling has been as bad as the run game. I gotta love Orton in what he has been able to accomplish almost on his own. If anything he is teaching Hackett how to do his job. The trade deadline came and went, and the Bills still have some starters in the lineup that should be backups or off the roster. So, while Whaley has been downright amazing in finding Orton, Carpenter, a decent punter, and some really good upgrades for the defense. WTH, is the story with the OG position, and why is the line the worst graded unit in the league when the HC is a past NFL O line player, past NFL O line coach, past NFL OC? Something is rotten. Should this team finish with a winning record, and even make the playoffs it will be because of Schwartz, Sammy, and Orton. Now tell me the team didn't need a veteran QB on the roster last year when they had 3 rookies QB's..these coaches... Edited October 31, 2014 by FeartheLosing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Pile Guy Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) Great post - until the end, and only because I disagree with you blowing up the coaching staff is a terrible idea, for the sole reason (there are several though, but this one is the most important) that continuity is what breeds success in the NFL - constant turnover of coaching staff and front office has been a major factor in why we have been in rebuild mode for 15 years You may not like marrone (I personally like his mantra of constantly getting better, holding players accountable, not confusing effort with results) but he's getting results, no? Is there public dissension among players? I think you may be reading a little too much into certain players (where has it been said urbik has been sitting because he doesn't kiss marrones ass? Couldn't it just be that we drafted a guy we are high on and thought he would improve the more he played, and that for a while he was showing glimpses of improvement so why pull the plug before it was glaringly obvious we needed too?) and their dislike of Marrone...I see a team that has good chemistry and is being led from the top down The crossman hate I just don't get.....special teams have been pretty damn special I'm not going to touch the Hackett debate because I think - as you pointed out - it's not all on him and he has definitely had success with his passing schemes, and his "predictability" is probably a combination of factors that you mentioned Russ Brandon has been doing a hell of a job marketing and running business side of the buffalo bills for years, I don't get why he would/should be replaced either....as long as he's not making football decisions, which he's not (and you also seem to infer - blindly - that he could be pressuring Whaley into decisions, which I think is unfounded and kind of just wrong), he shouldn't be replaced either Now if Pegula were to bring in an outsider to view the situation and make recommendations in the offseason/next year going forward, that sounds like a progressive and intelligent way to go about continuing to build a winning organization Great post - looking forward to more of these for the 2nd half! Go bills! I agree with your thoughts about the HC. Almost without exception, when teams change coaches, they go through a growing pains period. Do you really want to take a team on the cusp of the playoffs and put them back another 2 years? Remember that key D players like KW don't have that much time left. I, too, have not seen any definitive evidence that players are revolting against the HC. If anything, it has been refreshing to see how much fight they have when things aren't going their way. As far as the OC is concerned, it's hard to make chicken salad out of chicken feathers. Remember the scorn leveled at CJ because all's he wanted to do was bounce it outside, something that wasn't effective, at all. I like the smash mouth running into the middle, even if they don't bust things lose. It's boring as hell and is exactly what you want to be doing to keep your QB alive. Remember, the second option when KO goes down, is to bring in EJ., THAT'S SCARY! Edited October 31, 2014 by Rock Pile Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) I agree with your thoughts about the HC. Almost without exception, when teams change coaches, they go through a growing pains period. Do you really want to take a team on the cusp of the playoffs and put them back another 2 years? Remember that key D players like KW don't have that much time left. I, too, have not seen any definitive evidence that players are revolting against the HC. If anything, it has been refreshing to see how much fight they have when things aren't going their way. As far as the OC is concerned, it's hard to make chicken salad out of chicken feathers. Remember the scorn leveled at CJ because all's he wanted to do was bounce it outside, something that wasn't effective, at all. I like the smash mouth running into the middle, even if they don't bust things lose. It's boring as hell and is exactly what you want to be doing to keep your QB alive. Remember, the second option when KO goes down, is to bring in EJ., THAT'S SCARY! I think as mentioned by Simon,it is the fight and focus of the team .I watched the Danny Crossman clip today. I feel that team believes in the message. Whether it turns to roses i have no idea. But the buy in "seems" evident. By words and actions. Simon would you reconsider letting this coaching staff have the benefit of the doubt till seasons end ? Edited October 31, 2014 by 3rdand12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billykaykay Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 So you have no idea why Urbik was benched until last week.....yet you "don't understand" how anyone can even think it might be for reasons other than poor performance. This makes no sense. Do you really think that Urbik was on the bench because Marrone wasn't really sure he was better than the guards playing ahead of him? Really?? Well, the only other explanation is that he was benched for reasons other than ability--in other words, "to teach him a lesson" or some cliche. Same for Williams--do you really think Marrone isn't sure whether Williams is a more gifted and skilled WR than...Hogan?? Of course not. He's in the dog house too. I don't know what you don't understand here. Coaches, especially coaches on the hot seat, insert the players that give the team the best chance of winning. Why would they put in an inferior player? To think otherwise is just foolishness. Believe what you want but it is just your perception and your theory.And also, Hogan is a better WR than Williams imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drreef2 Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Good thread. I disagree with having to clean house if we miss playoffs. First off, Russ Brandon is in charge of the business side of the team. He doesn't choose the players or the plays that are run. If the Pegulas want to make a profit, they will keep him there since he has done well at that. As for Whaley, most people agree he has done well through the draft. But don't kid yourself if you don't think he had a say on drafting EJ. I still think EJ can develop because he was a project (and I am an FSU fan who watched him a lot in college). Whaley should still lead this team because he and Nix have built something we have not had for years - depth. Marrone is the question mark although I like some of the conflict that happens. That means he is challenging players and they are challenging him. Just like the Bickering Bills. overall he has been able to make tough decisions that have worked out ie Orton. Hackett is my only concern. But his job has not been easy with all the QB changes and porous guard play. I understand why Urbik was not playing (normally we would have had more injuries by now). But I applaud them making the switch. A major injury to Wood would really hurt us as guards would not have had enough playing time if Urbik has to step in. If the Bills miss playoffs, I would think a lot about just getting rid of Hackett and keeping everybody else. I think they need a bit more plays that stretch the field early to loosen up the run and short passes. It only seems like we are losing when that happens. Last week was an exception because of the poor corner play early in the game freeing woods and Watkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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