JoeF Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 I have been wrestling with this since the season ended. If JP unseats Drew--what are we really giving up. Here are some thoughts: Drew's stats this year were in the last half of the league. His touchdown/int ratio was immeasurably better and his ability to avoid the negative play was significantly better. Opposing teams bunched the line against us this year (just like '03) and dared us to pass. We did burn them a lot more often this year due to a combination of Drew's improvement, an improved scheme, McGahee's blitz pickup, improved OL play and having Moulds healthy and Evans. Drew showed great improvement in avoiding the blitz and he greatly reduced the number of negative plays caused by pressure (sacks and turnovers). Much of this was due to the factors above. I don't think anyone realized how bad off we were in '03 when Reed and Shaw were our starting receivers for much of the year... If we go with JP, we give up: 1) the chance to see if Drew's improvement was a step toward a major remaking of a late career qb. 2) a wealth of experience against almost every defensive look we will see next year 3) a QB ready to run the no huddle at the drop of a hat The main advantages of JP are: 1) D's have to plan for a mobile QB--this may loosen up the D some 2) there is little drop off in arm strength between the two--in fact JP's release may be quicker 3) Youthful enthusiasm and a passion for hard work can carry one a long way--JP has loads of both apparently. While in my mind, I would really like to see JP sit for another year (see Pennington, Culpepper and McNair for case studies)...I have a feeling JP, because of his work ethic and attitude will rise to the challenge if given the opportunity. I would rather go with him from the beginning of the year than make the change in season--because if we make the change in season -- by definition we are not performing very well at QB and probably as a team. So we give up a huge experience advantage for youthful enthusiasm, work ethic and great mobility. We sacrifice misreads and a few mistakes for the ability to adlib and learn on the fly......it could mean '05 is another year without the playoffs, but the playoffs are not gauranteed with Drew either.... What's it all mean--who knows-but I am ready for a change...let's just do it now. Sorry for the drivel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanLevy Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 We give up the playoffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Good post - I agree. The Drew apologists will scream "I told you so" if we don't win 10+ games with JP, but we couldn't make the playoffs w/ Bledsoe with the #2 defense and #1 Special Teams. I don't see the difference between 9-7 missing the playoffs and 7-9 missing the playoffs. That is the worst case scenerio assuming that we get worse production out of the QB position than last year, which I doubt. The risk does not even come close to matching the potential reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Culpepper started in his 2nd season, a move that Denny Green was widely criticized for when he announced it before pre-season began. He was a fantasy player's dream & the Vikings made it to the NFC championship game. Nobody (in the media etc), except the team-which saw him in practice the year before, thought he could step right in after not playing much his rookie year. Brady won the Super Bowl his second season. Roethlisberger made it to the AFC championship as a rookie from the MAC. That old thinking that all QBs stuggle their 1st year as a starter or that the vet is better than the 2nd year QB is no longer applicable. Just as I've learned that underclassman QB does not always = bust, like it did just a few years ago. The QB position & its learning curve has recently changed. I don't know if its the extra camps, more hands on QB coaching, or something else. JP is comming back to Buffalo to learn from Wyche & Clements, while Drew sits on his @ss out West. I expect JP to start on opening day & on Super Bowl Sunday in Detroit. There are no reasons for diminished expectations with JP at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Culpepper started in his 2nd season, a move that Denny Green was widely criticized for when he announced it before pre-season began. He was a fantasy player's dream & the Vikings made it to the NFC championship game. Nobody (in the media etc), except the team-which saw him in practice the year before, thought he could step right in after not playing much his rookie year. Brady won the Super Bowl his second season. Roethlisberger made it to the AFC championship as a rookie from the MAC. That old thinking that all QBs stuggle their 1st year as a starter or that the vet is better than the 2nd year QB is no longer applicable. Just as I've learned that underclassman QB does not always = bust, like it did just a few years ago. The QB position & its learning curve has recently changed. I don't know if its the extra camps, more hands on QB coaching, or something else. JP is comming back to Buffalo to learn from Wyche & Clements, while Drew sits on his @ss out West. I expect JP to start on opening day & on Super Bowl Sunday in Detroit. There are no reasons for diminished expectations with JP at QB. 223170[/snapback] Couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Culpepper started in his 2nd season, a move that Denny Green was widely criticized for when he announced it before pre-season began. He was a fantasy player's dream & the Vikings made it to the NFC championship game. Nobody (in the media etc), except the team-which saw him in practice the year before, thought he could step right in after not playing much his rookie year. Brady won the Super Bowl his second season. Roethlisberger made it to the AFC championship as a rookie from the MAC. Yep exactly Albany--I meant just Pennington and McNair but typed Culpepper for some reason. There are more than a few examples of year two guys who have taken the reins and had some success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zook Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 We give up the playoffs 223165[/snapback] Look - I love drew and there haven't been many Bills that are easier to root for - hes tough, a leader, makes no exscuses and is a positive figure in the community. But when you have a top 3 defense, a top 3 special teams unit and a stud at RB and you end up at 9-7, something is wrong. You can pin anywhere from 2-4 losses directly on Drew depending on how forgiving you are - We no longer have Gilbride to blame - hes good enough to beat bottom of the barrel teams, but cant make plays to beat good teams. Hes lost it and he always screws up at the wrong time. JP is an unknown commodity - but Drews' average stat line was under 200 yards passing and usually included a few picks - I am willing to bet JP can give us that for a while and grow into the role - hes got a tome of upside. bottom line - we know what we have with Drew - all the elements were in place for a playoff team and there was one glaring problem. Its time for the JP era. Drew will always be remembered well here - it just didnt work out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 We give up the playoffs 223165[/snapback] If Pittsburgh can go 15-1 with Ben R. as a rookie, why can't the Bills make the playoffs with JP who will be in his second year? I would think the Bills would adopt a conservative philosophy and if JP can avoid turning the ball over, we stand as good a chance at making the playoffs as we would with DB back as the starter for 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Culpepper started in his 2nd season, a move that Denny Green was widely criticized for when he announced it before pre-season began. He was a fantasy player's dream & the Vikings made it to the NFC championship game. Nobody (in the media etc), except the team-which saw him in practice the year before, thought he could step right in after not playing much his rookie year. Brady won the Super Bowl his second season. Roethlisberger made it to the AFC championship as a rookie from the MAC. That old thinking that all QBs stuggle their 1st year as a starter or that the vet is better than the 2nd year QB is no longer applicable. Just as I've learned that underclassman QB does not always = bust, like it did just a few years ago. The QB position & its learning curve has recently changed. I don't know if its the extra camps, more hands on QB coaching, or something else. JP is comming back to Buffalo to learn from Wyche & Clements, while Drew sits on his @ss out West. I expect JP to start on opening day & on Super Bowl Sunday in Detroit. There are no reasons for diminished expectations with JP at QB. 223170[/snapback] Culpepper weighs 50 pounds more, and has always been a look to pass Qb first. In the time we saw Losman, preseason and regular season he does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 We give up the playoffs 223165[/snapback] That's an interesting take seeing as though Drew is has zero Playoff appearences as The Buffalo Bills Starting QB... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Joe, I dont think that it is a question of loss, but a question of risk. There is nothing, absolutely nothing at all to assure us that JP does not suck. There is no solid footing to base a good (nor bad) opinion of JP upon. We know that TD liked him enough to trade away a 2nd and a 5th and trade away and take a loss on a 1st. We also know that a small player brushed against JP and he wound up in traction. I can understand wanting to take a gamble on this kid. Can you understand that he has proven absolutely nothing, and that there is zero gaurantee that he will ever be a competent NFL qb? If TD and the coaches feel that Drew must go, so be it. I will be the biggest fan of JP on this board IF he is capable of playing football in the NFL. In the meantime, the Bills would be well served to bring in a proven qb just in case he sucks, which I am sorry to say is very possible. I have been attacked for suggesting Fiedler, but there is nothing as of yet to indicate that JP will be his equal as a qb in this league. Bottom line: If we release Drew, we will need a professional NFL qb on the roster because we dont know whether or not JP is, nor will ever be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Joe, I dont think that it is a question of loss, but a question of risk. There is nothing, absolutely nothing at all to assure us that JP does not suck. There is no solid footing to base a good (nor bad) opinion of JP upon. We know that TD liked him enough to trade away a 2nd and a 5th and trade away and take a loss on a 1st. We also know that a small player brushed against JP and he wound up in traction. I can understand wanting to take a gamble on this kid. Can you understand that he has proven absolutely nothing, and that there is zero gaurantee that he will ever be a competent NFL qb? If TD and the coaches feel that Drew must go, so be it. I will be the biggest fan of JP on this board IF he is capable of playing football in the NFL. In the meantime, the Bills would be well served to bring in a proven qb just in case he sucks, which I am sorry to say is very possible. I have been attacked for suggesting Fiedler, but there is nothing as of yet to indicate that JP will be his equal as a qb in this league. Bottom line: If we release Drew, we will need a professional NFL qb on the roster because we dont know whether or not JP is, nor will ever be one. 223195[/snapback] Bill -- your perspective is appreciated on this one. There isn't a right answer here...but I think we can have a relatively rational thread that outlines the risks/opportunities. Rather than a irrational Drew sucks--JP is God or they both suck thread.... I would really prefer for example, that Drew stay with the Bills, the job be open in camp, the best man wins and that man starts the entire season (indicating a good year). One great thing, as opposed to last offseason, I trust our coaching staff to make a good decision here...Mularkey, Clements and Wyche have my confidence on this one...if they go with JP they know the risk they are taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Joe, I dont think that it is a question of loss, but a question of risk. There is nothing, absolutely nothing at all to assure us that JP does not suck. There is no solid footing to base a good (nor bad) opinion of JP upon. We know that TD liked him enough to trade away a 2nd and a 5th and trade away and take a loss on a 1st. We also know that a small player brushed against JP and he wound up in traction. I can understand wanting to take a gamble on this kid. Can you understand that he has proven absolutely nothing, and that there is zero gaurantee that he will ever be a competent NFL qb? If TD and the coaches feel that Drew must go, so be it. I will be the biggest fan of JP on this board IF he is capable of playing football in the NFL. In the meantime, the Bills would be well served to bring in a proven qb just in case he sucks, which I am sorry to say is very possible. I have been attacked for suggesting Fiedler, but there is nothing as of yet to indicate that JP will be his equal as a qb in this league. Bottom line: If we release Drew, we will need a professional NFL qb on the roster because we dont know whether or not JP is, nor will ever be one. 223195[/snapback] I agree with that take Bill...No doubt the Bills need a Vet option on the Roster as an option if JP fails. And I can actually understand the take on Fiedler, but I just don't want an ex Fish...period... Now, I'm not sure who that leaves out there as a Vet option, but I think as things shake down before the Draft the options will expand... I still think giving JP every opportunity to Start, and work though the bumps in the road, is the best strategy for 2005 because to be honest I do not believe the Bills can Win the Division next Season anyway...The Playoffs are a definite possibility with JP in there if he can just manage to keep the mistakes at a minimum. Then in 2006 hopefully NE comes down a notch, JP continues to improve, and the Bills take the next step...Granted there is a ton of risk involved in this plan, but I really don't see a better option for the future of the Franchise, and I don't think there is a Vet out there (like Volek was last year) that gives the Bills a significantly better option to JP in 2005... No matter what, The Bills do need to bring in a legit Vet to back JP though... No doubt about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Bill -- your perspective is appreciated on this one. There isn't a right answer here...but I think we can have a relatively rational thread that outlines the risks/opportunities. Rather than a irrational Drew sucks--JP is God or they both suck thread.... I would really prefer for example, that Drew stay with the Bills, the job be open in camp, the best man wins and that man starts the entire season (indicating a good year). One great thing, as opposed to last offseason, I trust our coaching staff to make a good decision here...Mularkey, Clements and Wyche have my confidence on this one...if they go with JP they know the risk they are taking. 223196[/snapback] I think, while in theory keeping Drew and opening up the competition at QB seems like a decent idea, a look into Drews reaction in NE when he was benched proves the guy is not going to accept being a back-up...period...On the surface it seemed Drew was O.K. with Brady Starting, and he definitely did his job...But most reports I have read indicate Drew made it crystal clear he was unhappy and he wanted out if he was going to be a back-up...If Drew has to compete for the Starting Job with JP it will split the Team because DB has been around here for 3 years, and will have his supporters in the Locker Room regardless... Thus, I think if JP is going to be given every opportunity to Start, Drew has got to be gone...In a couple years Drew may be willing to take a back seat somewhere in the League...But not yet, and definitely not in Buffalo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 I agree with that take Bill...No doubt the Bills need a Vet option on the Roster as an option if JP fails. And I can actually understand the take on Fiedler, but I just don't want an ex Fish...period... Now, I'm not sure who that leaves out there as a Vet option, but I think as things shake down before the Draft the options will expand... I still think giving JP every opportunity to Start, and work though the bumps in the road, is the best strategy for 2005 because to be honest I do not believe the Bills can Win the Division next Season anyway...The Playoffs are a definite possibility with JP in there if he can just manage to keep the mistakes at a minimum. Then in 2006 hopefully NE comes down a notch, JP continues to improve, and the Bills take the next step...Granted there is a ton of risk involved in this plan, but I really don't see a better option for the future of the Franchise, and I don't think there is a Vet out there (like Volek was last year) that gives the Bills a significantly better option to JP in 2005... No matter what, The Bills do need to bring in a legit Vet to back JP though... No doubt about that... 223201[/snapback] I appreciate your candor as to why you do not want Fiedler. Allow me to present another view... 1) Fiedler has been all too successful against the Buffalo Bills. 2) He is a Jewish kid from Long Island ( this btw is part of NY ) He lost loved ones on 911 and appears to be a regualr guy. 3) He is a Dartmouth Grad. He is smart and could probably help JP. He is far closer to the JP style of play than is Drew, and could probably be of a ton of help to him. 4) the Bills OL is still suspect. Fiedler can move with the best of them (except Vick). I am NOT touting Fiedler to be the next Jim Kelly. I think that he would be a GREAT stop-gap measure for our beloved Bills. Got a better one? I (like Fiedler) am all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 We give up the playoffs 223165[/snapback] We gave the playoffs up with Drew this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 We gave the playoffs up with Drew this year. 223237[/snapback] And Travis tripping over the yardage lines early in the year had nothing to do with this. Plus Moulds dropping balls, or Nate forgetting to knock the ball down, or Travis running trap when he was supposed to run a dive that knocked the ball out of Drew hands against NE, or coaches forgetting to challege the TD in Oakland, or the D forgetting to play against the Jets on there final drive. Now Baltimore that was Drew's fault period. No question. He looked horrible inside the 20. But missing the playoffs was really a team effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 I appreciate your candor as to why you do not want Fiedler. Allow me to present another view... 1) Fiedler has been all too successful against the Buffalo Bills. 2) He is a Jewish kid from Long Island ( this btw is part of NY ) He lost loved ones on 911 and appears to be a regualr guy. 3) He is a Dartmouth Grad. He is smart and could probably help JP. He is far closer to the JP style of play than is Drew, and could probably be of a ton of help to him. 4) the Bills OL is still suspect. Fiedler can move with the best of them (except Vick). I am NOT touting Fiedler to be the next Jim Kelly. I think that he would be a GREAT stop-gap measure for our beloved Bills. Got a better one? I (like Fiedler) am all ears. 223233[/snapback] I hear you Bro... My reasons for not wanting Fiedler are admittedly non-scientific and completely personal...Part of the reason I never warmed to Drew was all those Years as a Patsie...Just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndZoneCrew Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 nothing.....we will get the same mistakes that we have with Bledsoe...however, he has the ability to make plays and avoid the sacks that Drew cannot...it's that simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 That's an interesting take seeing as though Drew is has zero Playoff appearences as The Buffalo Bills Starting QB... 223194[/snapback] I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackur Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 nothing.....we will get the same mistakes that we have with Bledsoe...however, he has the ability to make plays and avoid the sacks that Drew cannot...it's that simple! 223258[/snapback] although Drew isnt cocky...............jp needs his attitude checked before he is the starter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 We give up the playoffs 223165[/snapback] Really? When did Drew ever lead the Bills to the playoffs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorom Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Looking at Drews #'s the last 2.5 years its hard to beleive JP would do any worse. I'm all for seeing JP play, but he'll have to earn it at camp and preseason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 If Pittsburgh can go 15-1 with Ben R. as a rookie, why can't the Bills make the playoffs with JP who will be in his second year? I would think the Bills would adopt a conservative philosophy and if JP can avoid turning the ball over, we stand as good a chance at making the playoffs as we would with DB back as the starter for 2005. 223189[/snapback] Bills gameplanning and playcalling couldn't be any more conservative than it was this year as they tried to protect Beldsoe from himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper13 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Exactly how many games has Bledsoe won in the playoffs with the Bills in the last three seasons? How many playoff games have the Bills played in with Bledose as QB in the last three seasons? NONE AND NONE. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Exactly how many games has Bledsoe won in the playoffs with the Bills in the last three seasons? How many playoff games have the Bills played in with Bledose as QB in the last three seasons? NONE AND NONE. End of story. 223537[/snapback] How many games in the playoffs did Harrington get Detroit? Ramsey in Washington? etc.., etc... etc... A rookie Qb doesn't mean anything and it could get a lot worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 although Drew isnt cocky...............jp needs his attitude checked before he is the starter 223486[/snapback] It worked for a guy named Kelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJames Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 If we go with JP, we give up:1) the chance to see if Drew's improvement was a step toward a major remaking of a late career qb. 2) a wealth of experience against almost every defensive look we will see next year 3) a QB ready to run the no huddle at the drop of a hat The main advantages of JP are: 1) D's have to plan for a mobile QB--this may loosen up the D some 2) there is little drop off in arm strength between the two--in fact JP's release may be quicker 3) Youthful enthusiasm and a passion for hard work can carry one a long way--JP has loads of both apparently. 223163[/snapback] Go ask the Ravens if a 2nd year pro, a 2000 yd rusher, and the best offensive line in football can get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 It worked for a guy named Kelly. 223712[/snapback] He never won the big one. I liked Kelly's swagger but I hope this team developes some "team" attitude like the Pats, and is not "star" driven like the 0-4 Superbowl teams. Maturity and some humbleness would do Losman good this coming season. In other words, I do not want him showing his "cockiness" off the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 We give up the playoffs 223165[/snapback] I'm sorry, the what? Ahhhh the playoffs. God it's been so long I had almost forgotten. Top defense, top special teams and home in January. We have to see what JP can do on the field. We know Drew's strengths and weaknesses, and we know how far he can carry a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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