The Pegulas FIRST move as owners has already taken place

[thebandit27]

Once again, refute my observations and facts and offer none of your own.

I'll keep asking, since you all do it to me, "where are your facts" ?

 

No, I refuted uninformed suppositions with informed statements. You have stated zero, I repeat, zero facts. None whatsoever.

 

Here's a fact: Whaley and the scouting staff made the call on Watkins. It's right there in the linked article that Gabe posted, which you claim supports your opinion (but it doesn't):

 

Doug Whaley: Dynamic playmaker. That’s what this game is all about, making plays. This game is about making plays and surrounding our quarterback with playmakers. He’s automatically going to make our quarterback better and us better as a team. I do want to start this by saying this all goes back to Russ Brandon. He allowed us to make this move and he okayed it and was willing to give up the resources and future picks to go up and get a guy that we think will help us get to where we need to be.

 

He allowed us--us as in the GM and the scouting staff. He didn't make the decision, he okayed the use of the resources. There is absolutely no denying this, short of a desire to be belligerent. Now you can believe this or not, but Brandon never would've vetoed any type of reasonable move. The only scenario that would've happened is if Whaley came to him and said something like "we want to trade our next 3 1st rounders for Johnny Manziel"--then I think they'd have had a sit down.

 

If you want to delve into that interview even further, why is Brandon answering only questions about communication with other teams and the use of resources, while Whaley is answering every question with regard to personnel and evaluation? The answer is intrinsically obvious to anyone that doesn't have a crusade going: it's because Russ does not make football decisions.

 

Another fact: Buffalo conducted their coaching interviews as a group...

 

http://www.buffaloru...hunt-ray-horton

 

Russ Brandon, the newly appointed team president and CEO, told radio station WGR 550 that he and three companions - GM Buddy Nix, Assistant GM Doug Whaley and Senior VP of Football Administration Jim Overdorf - will board a flight to Arizona to begin conducting interviews.

 

Once again, to refute that it was a group that consisted of the Team President, Current GM, and Future GM would be the height or belligerence.

 

Fact: plenty of teams' presidents, COOs, etc. sit in the draft room. Look at my post above, and you'll see Pete Carroll getting advice from a bean counter in the draft room. Do you honestly believe that guy is making a personnel decision? Please.

 

You're blatantly confusing him being interested in the team of which he's President with him making decisions he doesn't make. I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

 

Bandit, I respect you as a poster, but, COME ON. If you want to argue and debate, diversion is not the way to go.

 

Again, do you have any facts to support your position, or are your facts refuting mine ?

 

As side note: I did get an opportunity to be in the Falcons draft room one year, best experience ever. Oh, and virtually every person in that room was involved

 

Once again, you have not posted any facts, and I challenge you to show me where you have.

 

And of course everyone in the draft room is "involved", but "involved" does not mean making personnel decisions. The intern than pours the coffee is "involved"; the director of analytics is "involved"; you're conflating the argument. Yes, Russ was "involved"; he worked the phones at Whaley's behest. It's been noted several times over. He did not make one single solitary personnel decision.

 

What's more? He never has.

 

EDIT: I should note that I'm not trying to hammer you here; I just cannot understand the desire to pin things on Brandon that aren't his responsibility, or the fervor with which you seem to do so.

Edited September 10, 2014 by thebandit27

[The Dean]

I've been involved in the buying and selling of companies. Usually, in my experience, the buyer (in this case Pegula) doesn't usually maintain a close relationship with the seller (in this case, France).

 

Do you become friendly with - and seek advice from - the people who sell you things?

 

I guess the better question is...

 

Do you have any information that Pegula and France have become friendly?

 

While I'm not going to dispute your feelings on France, as mine are close to similar. I don't quite get the France is a shoe-in thing. But it's possible I suppose. Let's just say I'm not holding my breath waiting for the appointment.

 

But with regarded to the bolded part, I will say this. Having been mostly a client in my corporate TV days, I have become friends with many suppliers (people who were trying to sell me things) a the rep level, management level and up to CEO level.* It is easy to believe they might cozy up to a customer, but many of these friendships have survived long past any business relationships. I can't say if that is unusual.

 

Edit: * I should have added "and seek advice (mutually) from each other.

 

 

The problem with being placed in a position that one is ill-equipped for is that you don't have the background and credibility to respond to other football staffers who are also involved with making football decisions. The owner similarly placed Marv Levy in a position that he was ill-equipped for. So he (in his own words) became a facilitator instead of being substatively involved in the football operation. Just like Brandon Levy realized that he wasn't equipped for the position and took himself out of it.

 

Isn't pretty much every owner in a position where they are "ill-equipped" for many of the areas they are responsible for---especially the football decisions? Like most every CEO in most every company of any sufficient size?

 

My understanding is, Brandon was pretty much filling the position of Ralph, along with his own responsibilities. And I believe, as long as he was mentally competent (and maybe a bit beyond), Ralph probably was more involved in football decisions than Brandon. While, compared to many other NFL owners over the years, Raph was fairly hands-off, he certainly wasn't shy to be the boss when he felt strongly about something. He'd usually let his people make the decision---but they knew how the boss felt. I doubt Brandon had THAT kind of influence.

Edited September 10, 2014 by The Dean

[TXBILLSFAN]

I give up.

 

I tried to keep this discussion on Todd France.

 

I tried to NOT engage in the Brandon discussion, I wish I would have tried a little harder.

 

I give up trying to convince you that the man who is the Team President and CEO actually really does have some involvement, some responsibility and therefore some accountability for the performance of his organization. A concept you all can't grasp and that continues to puzzle me.

 

I've worked for 4 Fortune 50 companies over the past 25 years and have never seen a President NOT be involved in the operations of the departments he/she is responsible for, but I succumb to each of your "expertise" in this matter and try to move on.

 

You asked me why it matters, well, it matters to me, because I believe people should be held accountable for their performance and when they don't perform to standards, they should be replaced. That's what separates winning cultures from losing ones, unfortunately, a point that is lost in this thread.

 

So, I respectfully ask that we simply agree to disagree and move on to discuss what this thread was started to discuss, the notion of a super agent having influence with the Pegula ownership group.

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: To Bandit, I equally can't understand your fervor to defend Brandon and the performance of the Bills organization.

Edited September 10, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[Kelly the Dog]

I give up.

 

I tried to keep this discussion on Todd France.

 

I tried to NOT engage in the Brandon discussion, I wish I would have tried a little harder.

 

I give up trying to convince you that the man who is the Team President and CEO actually really does have some involvement, some responsibility and therefore some accountability for the performance of his organization. A concept you all can't grasp and that continues to puzzle me.

 

I've worked for 4 Fortune 50 companies over the past 25 years and have never seen a President NOT be involved in the operations of the departments he/she is responsible for, but I succumb to each of your "expertise" in this matter and try to move on.

 

You asked me why it matters, well, it matters to me, because I believe people should be held accountable for their performance and when they don't perform to standards, they should be replaced. That's what separates winning cultures from losing ones, unfortunately, a point that is lost in this thread.

 

So, I respectfully ask that we simply agree to disagree and move on to discuss what this thread was started to discuss, the notion of a super agent having influence with the Pegula ownership group.

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: To Bandit, I equally can't understand your fervor to defend Brandon and the performance of the Bills organization.

The NFL is different from a lot of companies because there is such a clear demarcation of business and football. 99% of the football guys you want 100% out of the way of your business decisions, too. If the owner of a Fortune 500 company rose to that position by actually designing or making the product they sell, or was schooled in architecture or marketing while being CEO or President of an architecture or marketing company, not only are they going to be involved deeply but making decisions based on that expertise.

 

Brandon has no expertise or experience or schooling or in depth knowledge of scouting and personnel, so he would and shouldn't be directly involved in those decisions. Of course he will have his opinions and express them, and they will be listened to closely by Whaley and his team of scouts.

 

Before Whaley and his team of scouts walk away and roll their eyes.

[thebandit27]

EDIT: To Bandit, I equally can't understand your fervor to defend Brandon and the performance of the Bills organization.

 

I've never once defended the performance of the organization...I've only ever drawn the line between where Russ' responsibility begins and ends. He is responsible for the current structure of the organization, starting from his appointment to Team President in January of 2013. Prior to that, he was President of Business Operations, and did a stint as GM where he left personnel decisions to Tom Modrak and John Guy, and served as the GM in title only.

 

He can be taken to task for the structure of the organization as it stands today (i.e. the promotion of Whaley and supporting his revamping of the scouting department and pro personnel department), and he is ultimately responsible for the performance of Doug Whaley and (therefore) Doug Marrone.

 

As to the topic at hand, I have no idea if France will be involved (I can only say I haven't heard that) or if he should be...I would find it odd if the Pegulas made a switch in their first year or so as owners, but then again, I don't know their approach to running the organization.

[Gabe Northern]

I've never once defended the performance of the organization...I've only ever drawn the line between where Russ' responsibility begins and ends. He is responsible for the current structure of the organization, starting from his appointment to Team President in January of 2013. Prior to that, he was President of Business Operations, and did a stint as GM where he left personnel decisions to Tom Modrak and John Guy, and served as the GM in title only.

 

He can be taken to task for the structure of the organization as it stands today (i.e. the promotion of Whaley and supporting his revamping of the scouting department and pro personnel department), and he is ultimately responsible for the performance of Doug Whaley and (therefore) Doug Marrone.

 

As to the topic at hand, I have no idea if France will be involved (I can only say I haven't heard that) or if he should be...I would find it odd if the Pegulas made a switch in their first year or so as owners, but then again, I don't know their approach to running the organization.

 

Do you want him to have this level of involvement in future decisions? Should he have to OK all trades and UFA negotiations?

 

Q: Why make this move and what do you think about Sammy Watkins?

Doug Whaley: Dynamic playmaker. That's what this game is all about, making plays. This game is about making plays and surrounding our quarterback with playmakers. He's automatically going to make our quarterback better and us better as a team. I do want to start this by saying this all goes back to Russ Brandon. He allowed us to make this move and he okayed it and was willing to give up the resources and future picks to go up and get a guy that we think will help

[thebandit27]

Do you want him to have this level of involvement in future decisions? Should he have to OK all trades and UFA negotiations?

 

Q: Why make this move and what do you think about Sammy Watkins?

Doug Whaley: Dynamic playmaker. That's what this game is all about, making plays. This game is about making plays and surrounding our quarterback with playmakers. He's automatically going to make our quarterback better and us better as a team. I do want to start this by saying this all goes back to Russ Brandon. He allowed us to make this move and he okayed it and was willing to give up the resources and future picks to go up and get a guy that we think will help

 

Either he'll be doing it or the Pegulas will; or someone else that they decide to put into the position of President of Football Operations to act as a liaison between Owner and GM. So if my choice is Russ or someone else, I'll take Russ, given that I know he's got a good relationship with Whaley and Pegula.

 

Ask around the league--literally every GM in football has to get those kinds of decisions signed off on before they make them. As I've said so many times that it's become painful--Russ wouldn't veto anything unless it were ridiculous.

[Kelly the Dog]

Do you want him to have this level of involvement in future decisions? Should he have to OK all trades and UFA negotiations?

 

Q: Why make this move and what do you think about Sammy Watkins?

Doug Whaley: Dynamic playmaker. That's what this game is all about, making plays. This game is about making plays and surrounding our quarterback with playmakers. He's automatically going to make our quarterback better and us better as a team. I do want to start this by saying this all goes back to Russ Brandon. He allowed us to make this move and he okayed it and was willing to give up the resources and future picks to go up and get a guy that we think will help

What does "HE ALLOWED US TO MAKE THIS MOVE AND HE OKAYED IT" mean to you?

[Wayne Cubed]

I've worked for 4 Fortune 50 companies over the past 25 years and have never seen a President NOT be involved in the operations of the departments he/she is responsible for, but I succumb to each of your "expertise" in this matter and try to move on.

 

That's great, I've worked from some great companies too. Guess what, the President of my current company has no clue about IT infrastructure or advancements in IT, server upgrades, etc. but, every IT move is discussed with her and she signs them off. She rely's on the IT managers expertise to make the decision about what kind of servers to use or how our networking will be set up

 

See how that works? She empowers the IT manager to make decisions, she doesn't walk in a say, "well I heard about XYZ and this is what we are going to do."

 

I don't understand why you don't get the difference between "involved" and "making the decision".

 

EDIT: In your theory, your saying every President in every company is making IT decision, including what servers to use and how the companies network is set up.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[GunnerBill]

What TXBILLSFAN posted were unquestionably facts in that they were things that happened. They were just not facts from which one could honestly draw the conclusion he drew. Ultimately Brandon, as team President is ultimate for his hires. He didn't Hire Buddy Nix, we have established that, Mr Wilson did. We don't have any evidence to say one way or the other how involved he was in the hiring of Chan Gailey.

 

What we do know is that the hired Doug Whaley, he enabled Doug Whaley to revamp the top of the scouting department and he was on the panel that interviewed Doug Marrone. They are decisions against which Russ Brandon should be held accountable, and I think Russ accepted in the long press conference on New Year's Day 2013 that the buck now stopped with him.

[TXBILLSFAN]

 

 

That's great, I've worked from some great companies too. Guess what, the President of my current company has no clue about IT infrastructure or advancements in IT, server upgrades, etc. but, every IT move is discussed with her and she signs them off. She rely's on the IT managers expertise to make the decision about what kind of servers to use or how our networking will be set up

 

See how that works? She empowers the IT manager to make decisions, she doesn't walk in a say, "well I heard about XYZ and this is what we are going to do."

 

I don't understand why you don't get the difference between "involved" and "making the decision".

 

EDIT: In your theory, your saying every President in every company is making IT decision, including what servers to use and how the companies network is set up.

First, I never said what you suggest I said in your post, but thanks for putting words in my mouth, I was getting hungry anyway ;-)

 

I never said Brandon is scouting players, doing personnel evaluations, timing guys at their pro days etc. etc.

 

What Brandon should be doing if he is an engaged executive is setting clear objectives for each organization that he is responsible for, he should be working with the GM on a strategy, identifying resources, obstacles and helping to create an operating plan. He should be monitoring it and holding people accountable. I NEVER suggested that Brandon SHOULDN'T be involved, I suggest that because he IS involved he should therefore be held accountable for the performance of the organization he is in charge of.

 

The notion that the President of a football team is somehow insulated from responsibility for the on-the-field product baffles me.I thought I even remember Bandit agreeing that RB should be responsible a few months back now that he is Prez/CEO.

 

 

 

As President of a team, a corporate division, you have responsibility

Edited September 10, 2014 by TXBILLSFAN

[thebandit27]

First, I never said what you suggest I said in your post, but thanks for putting words in my mouth, I was getting hungry anyway ;-)

 

I never said Brandon is scouting players, doing personnel evaluations, timing guys at their pro days etc. etc.

 

What Brandon should be doing if he is an engaged executive is setting clear objectives for each organization that he is responsible for, he should be working with the GM on a strategy, identifying resources, obstacles and helping to create an operating plan. He should be monitoring it and holding people accountable. I NEVER suggested that Brandon SHOULDN'T be involved, I suggest that because he IS involved he should therefore be held accountable for the performance of the organization he is in charge of.

 

The notion that the President of a football team is somehow insulated from responsibility for the on-the-field product baffles me.I thought I even remember Bandit agreeing that RB should be responsible a few months back now that he is Prez/CEO.

 

 

 

As President of a team, a corporate division, you have responsibility

 

I did agree--to something close to that. What I said is that he should be held responsible for everything he's done since January of 2013, when he actually became responsible for the team.

 

The reason this issue won't die is that you seem to be saying he should be held accountable for things that happened before that--when he was not in charge of the team.

 

What we ostensibly agree on is this: Brandon should be held accountable for everything that has happened under his watch.

 

What we fervently disagree with is when his watch began: it is as of January 2013. Prior to that, he did not have autonomy, or even any semblance of control over the organization.

 

So just to humor us, what have you seen from Brandon as of January 2013, and how do you feel about the job he's done in his post since that time?

[JohnC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't pretty much every owner in a position where they are "ill-equipped" for many of the areas they are responsible for---especially the football decisions? Like most every CEO in most every company of any sufficient size?

 

My understanding is, Brandon was pretty much filling the position of Ralph, along with his own responsibilities. And I believe, as long as he was mentally competent (and maybe a bit beyond), Ralph probably was more involved in football decisions than Brandon. While, compared to many other NFL owners over the years, Raph was fairly hands-off, he certainly wasn't shy to be the boss when he felt strongly about something. He'd usually let his people make the decision---but they knew how the boss felt. I doubt Brandon had THAT kind of influence.

 

In general I agree with your comments. I certainly agree that Ralph had a history of getting involved with the football decisions and major hires, which is his prerogative. The team's record is a testament to his involvement.

Edited September 10, 2014 by JohnC

[Gabe Northern]

The analytics guy in Seattle is not Pete Carroll's boss.

 

Has no one ever had an employer that is always up in their business?

 

THAT is what Russ Brandon does. He's all over every football decision.

 

And the football decisions have been terrible.

 

Classic: "Brandon and Bills senior vice president of football operations Jim Overdorf finally hammered out the deal late Friday night and Saturday morning with Eagles GM Howie Roseman."

 

Response from Apologists: "he was just doing what Whaley wanted him to do."

 

So we're left to believe the subordinate (Whaley) was directing the activity of his supervisor (Brandon).

 

Riiiight. This is pure meddling by the "business side." It is working for a control freak, who is out there supervising every single decision made by his subordinates and likely pushing them to "make bold decisions."

[Wayne Cubed]

First, I never said what you suggest I said in your post, but thanks for putting words in my mouth, I was getting hungry anyway ;-)

 

I never said Brandon is scouting players, doing personnel evaluations, timing guys at their pro days etc. etc.

 

What Brandon should be doing if he is an engaged executive is setting clear objectives for each organization that he is responsible for, he should be working with the GM on a strategy, identifying resources, obstacles and helping to create an operating plan. He should be monitoring it and holding people accountable. I NEVER suggested that Brandon SHOULDN'T be involved, I suggest that because he IS involved he should therefore be held accountable for the performance of the organization he is in charge of.

 

The notion that the President of a football team is somehow insulated from responsibility for the on-the-field product baffles me.I thought I even remember Bandit agreeing that RB should be responsible a few months back now that he is Prez/CEO.

 

 

 

As President of a team, a corporate division, you have responsibility

 

I'm sorry I didn't put anything in your mouth, you did. You wrote:

 

 

Sorry, I tried my best to stay away from this and focus on France.

 

But, how is it digging deeply to point out:

1- Whaley reports to Brandon

2- Brandon/Whaley's press conference that Gabe posted

3- Footage of him in draft room, on the field at virtually every practice

4- Comments on drafting EJ and first hand discussions he had at FSU

5- Interviewed Marrone, Marrone is Syracuse guy

 

It seems like those of us who believe he is involved in football operations present facts and those of you that don't believe us rest on "unnamed sources" and belittle the facts that we do present, then ask us again "what facts do you have to suggest he is involved". Remember, the loudest person doesn't win the argument. So, "what facts do you have to suggest he isn't involved ?"

 

You said nothing at all about responsibility in that post and implied that Brandon was pulling the football strings.

 

Now you're changing course and talking about responsibility, which I agree with. Russ is responsible for the product on the field from when he took over as President.

[Lurker]

I have a hard time accepting this version of events.

 

I think it was more Ralph succumbing to the pressure of putting in a football guy in charge of football operations, turned to his left saw Buddy and made the decision.

Nope, not how I remembered it.

 

After TD, Ralph wanted someone he could trust (Marv) in the role. And when that blew up, he turned to Russ because he trusted him as well. Ralph's angst over the Donohoe catastrophe seemed to color all his latter-year personnel decisions.

 

Russ tried to fill the GM role for a year but quickly pulled Buddy in (another old guy Ralph felt comfortable with) and went back to his non-football operations responsibilities.

 

IMO, Ralph's mercurial personnel decisions have been at the heart of the the team's poor play for virtually his entire ownership tenure. That chapter of the Bills' saga has ended and is unlikely to be repeated under TP...

 

What does "HE ALLOWED US TO MAKE THIS MOVE AND HE OKAYED IT" mean to you?

Amazing...

[thebandit27]

The analytics guy in Seattle is not Pete Carroll's boss.

 

Has no one ever had an employer that is always up in their business?

 

THAT is what Russ Brandon does. He's all over every football decision.

 

And the football decisions have been terrible.

 

Classic: "Brandon and Bills senior vice president of football operations Jim Overdorf finally hammered out the deal late Friday night and Saturday morning with Eagles GM Howie Roseman."

 

Response from Apologists: "he was just doing what Whaley wanted him to do."

 

So we're left to believe the subordinate (Whaley) was directing the activity of his supervisor (Brandon).

 

Riiiight. This is pure meddling by the "business side." It is working for a control freak, who is out there supervising every single decision made by his subordinates and likely pushing them to "make bold decisions."

 

Okay fine, believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe the truth.

 

Brandon doesn't make football decisions; never has, never will.

 

The more you insist he does in the face of being told by practically everyone that he does not, the more it appears to be an agenda.

 

Just saying.

 

Myself, in done explaining this topic.

[Mr. WEO]

I give up.

 

I tried to keep this discussion on Todd France.

 

I tried to NOT engage in the Brandon discussion, I wish I would have tried a little harder.

 

I give up trying to convince you that the man who is the Team President and CEO actually really does have some involvement, some responsibility and therefore some accountability for the performance of his organization. A concept you all can't grasp and that continues to puzzle me.

 

I've worked for 4 Fortune 50 companies over the past 25 years and have never seen a President NOT be involved in the operations of the departments he/she is responsible for, but I succumb to each of your "expertise" in this matter and try to move on.

 

You asked me why it matters, well, it matters to me, because I believe people should be held accountable for their performance and when they don't perform to standards, they should be replaced. That's what separates winning cultures from losing ones, unfortunately, a point that is lost in this thread.

 

So, I respectfully ask that we simply agree to disagree and move on to discuss what this thread was started to discuss, the notion of a super agent having influence with the Pegula ownership group.

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: To Bandit, I equally can't understand your fervor to defend Brandon and the performance of the Bills organization.

 

I agree with your premise regarding the team's President's role. He can say "yes" to Whaley's requests--and the GM gets all the credit here.

 

But he can also say no.....

 

And the recent screaming match between the HC and Russ was obviously over player personnel.

 

But I maintain that PEgula won't put that much stock in his former partner, an agent, when/if he retools the FO.

[Augie]

 

Stayin'

Yep! Scoreboard baby!

[The Dean]

I agree with your premise regarding the team's President's role. He can say "yes" to Whaley's requests--and the GM gets all the credit here.

 

But he can also say no.....

 

And the recent screaming match between the HC and Russ was obviously over player personnel.

 

But I maintain that PEgula won't put that much stock in his former partner, an agent, when/if he retools the FO.

 

Still pushing that strange interpretation of the story, without even presenting what had been said. The reality seems to be the main argument was with Whaley, and Brandon interceded. But why present any contradictory interpretation, right?

 

Sounds like an agenda to me. Didn't Kelly already straighten you out on this?