KDIGGZ Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 so this is me sounding like a complete idiot, but I need to ask. Is it really practical to think the league owners would approve anyone who hasn't given a firm commitment to keeping the Bills in Buffalo long term? Would the other owners in the league, and whomever buys the team run the risk of it being a lame-duck franchise until the penalty period is up and the team can be moved cheaper than now? Wouldn't that be a huge black eye for the league to see a mostly empty stadium and a team generating no real revenue because the city and the fans have possibly turned their collective backs on their team? I'm not saying I'm smart, so don't attack, just the thoughts in my head That's kind of the conclusion I'm trying to find between the two polls. So far it looks like 90% of us don't believe that the Toronto group would stay in Buffalo and 50% of us wouldn't support the team anymore if they were to win the bid. If that is a reflection of the entire Bills fanbase then I think that is good news for us. I think the NFL and the Trust will see that there will not be any support for a Toronto owned Bills team and maybe they will instead sell to a local like Pegula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 That's kind of the conclusion I'm trying to find between the two polls. So far it looks like 90% of us don't believe that the Toronto group would stay in Buffalo and 50% of us wouldn't support the team anymore if they were to win the bid. If that is a reflection of the entire Bills fanbase then I think that is good news for us. I think the NFL and the Trust will see that there will not be any support for a Toronto owned Bills team and maybe they will instead sell to a local like Pegula I think that it would be interesting to have done the poll as how many think the team will move before 2020 vs. after. It would have been a good way to weed out the uninformed. There is a 0% chance that they leave before then but I would venture a guess that at least 1/3 of the people that believe the team will be moved think that it would be prior. Anyone that believes that is an option just doesn't understand the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Especially not Jon Bon Jovi's group, it's actually funny how he's pulled a complete 180 in the media. If anyone believes any group from toronto has a shred of intention to keep the team in Buffalo, I've got some ocean front property in oklahoma I'd like to sell you. Here's hoping pegula or Golisano gets the team. I wall probably not attend another game if a toronto group does land the team, I'd bet my entire retirement that as soon as the lease is up, that team is gone. Not even a fraction of 1000th of a percent that they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think that it would be interesting to have done the poll as how many think the team will move before 2020 vs. after. It would have been a good way to weed out the uninformed. There is a 0% chance that they leave before then but I would venture a guess that at least 1/3 of the people that believe the team will be moved think that it would be prior. Anyone that believes that is an option just doesn't understand the process. I certainly believe that Bon Jovi and friends plan on keeping the team here until the 2020. They will put forth a "good faith" stadium proposal that will almost certainly be shot down, allowing the relocation in 2020 and shifting the blame on us and the politicians. Just initiating that process is a big mistake for the group and the NFL. I feel stronger that the Toronto group is just in it as a courtesy and drive up fear, the bid price, and the stadium conversation... then the NFL will reward them down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I certainly believe that Bon Jovi and friends plan on keeping the team here until the 2020. They will put forth a "good faith" stadium proposal that will almost certainly be shot down, allowing the relocation in 2020 and shifting the blame on us and the politicians. Just initiating that process is a big mistake for the group and the NFL. I feel stronger that the Toronto group is just in it as a courtesy and drive up fear, the bid price, and the stadium conversation... then the NFL will reward them down the line. Interesting post and insight May Day!! That may very well be the end game in all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I certainly believe that Bon Jovi and friends plan on keeping the team here until the 2020. They will put forth a "good faith" stadium proposal that will almost certainly be shot down, allowing the relocation in 2020 and shifting the blame on us and the politicians. Just initiating that process is a big mistake for the group and the NFL. I feel stronger that the Toronto group is just in it as a courtesy and drive up fear, the bid price, and the stadium conversation... then the NFL will reward them down the line. That makes the most sense, as nobody wins in a scenario where local bidders or other groups submit competitive bids and the Toronto group is chosen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think you are WRONG if you have made the conclusion that it will be decided by the Toronto group where the team will be located. From what I see, many of us are making the assumption that the rich individual that owns the team rules and can make the determination virtually on their own where the team is based. It is understandable that someone draws this conclusion because this was the way the NFL operated primarily back in the day of George Halas. However, this ain't your Grandma's NFL anymore. Since the day Pete Rozelle was hired to run the NFL and publicly began to lead the NFL toward a world where each individual owner has realized (and has voted accordingly)that they own and produce the product they sell together and that taking the advantage of their individual control would actually produce less profit for them. I think the key episodes were: through the mid-80s- The NFL (and many major sports) were producing money hand over fist as the growth of TV changed the market teams were profiting from local appeal and ticket sales to a national (and potentially becoming international) market. As individual player notoriety grew and the NFLPA became more organized, the NFLPA engaged traditional AFL-CIO leadership in an attempt mano a mano threaten a post regular season strike which would see the players having collected all their per game salary but the owners not having collected their playoff game linked payments from the TV nets. mid-80s job action- In what turned out to be a last gasp for conventional individual capitalism, the team owners simply beat the crap out of the plodding AFL-CIO style leadership by locking the players out before they got their per game pay checks. The owners instead brought in "replacement" players and the public remained interested enuf (the play level definitely dropped, but not so much that it wasn't interesting to stare at like a car crash on the highway for a few weeks) and without individual paychex the NFLPA crumbled as enuf high paid players crossed the line. late-80s- however, once the AFL-CIO style leadership collapsed, a few of the players were smart enuf (like Gene Upshaw) to ally with some smart NYC lawyers and amid the heap of the collapsed union got enough of the savvy players to agree to threaten the NFL owners with decertifying the union. This would have forced the NFL team owners to actually operate and individual teams to compete with each other signing individual players to personal service contracts. Under a total free market system, the owner able to attract the best players (usually the highest bidder)would build the best team. Howe4ver the ultimate result of such a free market would be difficult to predict at best and would depend on a chunk of teams being bad at building teams and going out of business. A total free market in theory in forcing teams to get better (invest more)would produce the best teams. However, interestingly it is doubtful that a total free market would produce the highest profits or greater team stability for individual teams (the TV nets are most willing to invest big bucks for a stable marketplace). Afraid of the uncertainty caused by a real free market, the team owners instead were more than willing to form a partnership with the NFLPA reflected in a Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA. All in all the individual owners recognized that they would make more $ in a system depending on a social compact than they would in a free market system. mid 00s- The CBA came up for revision and things had progressed enuf that even before negotiations, Upshaw announced that the final agreement must give the players over 605 of the total NFL take. It did. The key point of all this is that in the new NFL the players are the majority partners and the partnership dictates results over individual team desires. It does not matter what the owners want in terms of location, it matters what the NFL as a whole wants. My guess is if the NFL wants the Bills in Buffalo then the team will remain here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 My guess is if the NFL wants the Bills in Buffalo then the team will remain here I'll fore go the rest of your post save this entry. My guess is if the NFL didn't want to explore the Toronto market, they wouldn't have allowed games up in Toronto by Bills. Regular season games at that. No one should be fooled here. That Toronot series had little to nothing to do with gauging or gaining market share from Toronto, it was a test run pure and simple. The out come is pretty easy to see, a team will need a permanent residence in Toronto to garner significant share of that market, as it vests the area in to the sport. I.E. These are the Toronto Bills, this is our team, type of atmosphere. You can bet your bippy, it the Toronto group wins the bid, the Bills are gone in 2020. That should be a foregone conclusion by now. All this talk about it being anything other wise is pure hog wash. Fans really need to come to their senses, I see much to much nonsense talk. It's a business decision and numbers are not on Buffalo's side when it comes to market viability against a Goliath like Toronto. Hell, the league tried twice to install teams in LA already, don't kid yourself, they'll move the team happily. If it doesn't work out, they know they can move it back, or elsewhere. Wake up people, smell the coffee here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I'll fore go the rest of your post save this entry. My guess is if the NFL didn't want to explore the Toronto market, they wouldn't have allowed games up in Toronto by Bills. Regular season games at that. No one should be fooled here. That Toronot series had little to nothing to do with gauging or gaining market share from Toronto, it was a test run pure and simple. The out come is pretty easy to see, a team will need a permanent residence in Toronto to garner significant share of that market, as it vests the area in to the sport. I.E. These are the Toronto Bills, this is our team, type of atmosphere. You can bet your bippy, it the Toronto group wins the bid, the Bills are gone in 2020. That should be a foregone conclusion by now. All this talk about it being anything other wise is pure hog wash. Fans really need to come to their senses, I see much to much nonsense talk. It's a business decision and numbers are not on Buffalo's side when it comes to market viability against a Goliath like Toronto. Hell, the league tried twice to install teams in LA already, don't kid yourself, they'll move the team happily. If it doesn't work out, they know they can move it back, or elsewhere. Wake up people, smell the coffee here. Full circle huh? Two months ago you were doom and gloom Last month you were practically guaranteeing a downtown stadium because "things had changed" Now you're back to telling everyone to wake up and realize the team is moving Full circle indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Full circle huh? Two months ago you were doom and gloom Last month you were practically guaranteeing a downtown stadium because "things had changed" Now you're back to telling everyone to wake up and realize the team is moving Full circle indeed Is this the same poster that claimed to have a whole bunch of info on a new stadium downtown about a month ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulFuture Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Full circle huh? Two months ago you were doom and gloom Last month you were practically guaranteeing a downtown stadium because "things had changed" Now you're back to telling everyone to wake up and realize the team is moving Full circle indeed Is this the same poster that claimed to have a whole bunch of info on a new stadium downtown about a month ago? Explain something to me for a moment if you would. How does what I just posted about the intent of the Toronto Group have anything to do with what you just asked me? My post is pretty clear, I'm sounding off caution about JBJ and his group and what their intent is. Is there something specific you wanted to ask me? Something about my post perhaps? Are you implying that I stated that Toronto will win the bid? Is this your idea of attempting to revisionist my post in an effort to down play the situation? Please, I'll sit back, while you explain yourself. Can't wait to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Explain something to me for a moment if you would. How does what I just posted about the intent of the Toronto Group have anything to do with what you just asked me? My post is pretty clear, I'm sounding off caution about JBJ and his group and what their intent is. Is there something specific you wanted to ask me? Something about my post perhaps? Are you implying that I stated that Toronto will win the bid? Is this your idea of attempting to revisionist my post in an effort to down play the situation? Please, I'll sit back, while you explain yourself. Can't wait to hear. First of all the Toronto series generated an additional $8M in non shared revenue a year in addition to expanding the fan base. It was not a ploy as much as it was the Bills answer to the growing non shared revenues that teams with new stadiums were generating. There is a reason that we are hearing that the Bills were like the 20th most profitable team or whatever they were. Secondly, when you come on this board dropping inside knowledge on new stadium plans as you did on June 13th only to do a 180 on the situation 5 weeks later, it is a hit to your credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 One thing that I think needs to be put out there that I do not believe has been discussed is this: It seems to me the ONLY reason that Jon Bon Jovi is viewed to be the bad guy and we think is lying to us and wants to move the team to Toronto is simply because he is associated with Tanenbaum, and now Rogers. There is nothing I know of in JBJ's past that really links him to Toronto, or not wanting to stay in Buffalo, or being a movie grubbing carpetbagger that only wants a big city or wanting to move the team. He simply can't afford a team himself, knew he needed a moneybags/billionaire to back him, the Bills became the first team available in a little while, and the moneybags from Toronto likewise needed Bon Jovi's insider NFL connections (which to me are mostly because everyone loves to hang around rock stars). We assume that he wants to move the team to Toronto simply because there is no chance in hell that Tanenbaum doesn't want to move the team to Toronto. And they are now partners. But there is really nothing we know of that makes JBJ personally not want the team to stay in Buffalo. He is an American. From New Jersey for crissakes. He may, personally, think the Bills should stay in Buffalo. He just has a backer who 99.999% likely doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Explain something to me for a moment if you would. How does what I just posted about the intent of the Toronto Group have anything to do with what you just asked me? My post is pretty clear, I'm sounding off caution about JBJ and his group and what their intent is. Is there something specific you wanted to ask me? Something about my post perhaps? Are you implying that I stated that Toronto will win the bid? Is this your idea of attempting to revisionist my post in an effort to down play the situation? Please, I'll sit back, while you explain yourself. Can't wait to hear. I don't need to "revisionist" your post. A person that is as confident as you were about a downtown stadium and a Pegula/Golisano partnership would likely not bat an eyelash at this Toronto speculation. The difference is profound...and confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) One thing that I think needs to be put out there that I do not believe has been discussed is this: It seems to me the ONLY reason that Jon Bon Jovi is viewed to be the bad guy and we think is lying to us and wants to move the team to Toronto is simply because he is associated with Tanenbaum, and now Rogers. There is nothing I know of in JBJ's past that really links him to Toronto, or not wanting to stay in Buffalo, or being a movie grubbing carpetbagger that only wants a big city or wanting to move the team. He simply can't afford a team himself, knew he needed a moneybags/billionaire to back him, the Bills became the first team available in a little while, and the moneybags from Toronto likewise needed Bon Jovi's insider NFL connections (which to me are mostly because everyone loves to hang around rock stars). We assume that he wants to move the team to Toronto simply because there is no chance in hell that Tanenbaum doesn't want to move the team to Toronto. And they are now partners. But there is really nothing we know of that makes JBJ personally not want the team to stay in Buffalo. He is an American. From New Jersey for crissakes. He may, personally, think the Bills should stay in Buffalo. He just has a backer who 99.999% likely doesn't. So you think Tannenbaum is backing him out of the goodness of his heart and they talked Rogers into it because he has too much money and just feels like giving? Or maybe it's because they realize this is Toronto's best chance to get an NFL team. Everyone gets something out of this partnership Edited July 23, 2014 by kdiggz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 So you think Tannenbaum is backing him out of the goodness of his heart and they talked Rogers into it because he has too much money and just feels like giving? Or maybe it's because they realize this is Toronto's best chance to get an NFL team. Everyone gets something out of this partnership Of course. The point is only that there is nothing that would make anyone believe Bon Jovi doesn't want the Bills in Buffalo EXCEPT that the guy he went to for money is from Toronto. That is an important distinction. It's a huge issue. But Bon Jovi here is being made out to be evil when he very well might want the team to stay personally. We don't know what his real intentions are. He may LOVE Buffalo and the Bills, but the guy that gave him the financial credibility is from Toronto, so as a team, that is where they will want the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 For anyone who thinks the group won't move the team to Toronto: don't be naive. That's clearly and obviously their plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Can we make this a public poll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) http://www.torontosu...t-for-the-bills I don't have inside sources, but I can look at what people have said/done and draw conclusions based on that. This article from the Toronto Sun illustrates this group's intentions. From the article linked above: "When Rogers signed its first five-year deal with the Bills, a Rogers person told me what their ultimate game plan was: In his words, they had basically taken out a five-year life insurance policy on owner Wilson’s life. He was 89 at the time. He’s 94 now. Wilson is alive: It was Ted Rogers who passed away part-way through this arrangement. And the petty and somewhat dirty politics of the arrangement have continued on. Years back, it was Paul Godfrey trying to bring the NFL to Toronto, but when Rogers got more involved, it was Phil Lind, the Cleveland Browns nut, who pushed Godfrey aside and brought Larry Tanenbaum into the mix. Tanenbaum has since disappeared from the scene and now Lind has been pushed aside in the Rogers rotation." This is from the Toronto newspaper. So no, I do not believe that these men have ANY intentions other than saying all the right things now, getting their hands on the team, and then figuring out a way to get it to Toronto at the expiration of the lease. They have 5-6 years or so to figure it out. The fact that they are willing to STILL shell out hundreds of millions of dollars on the purchase of the team ought to tell you something. They have a dream, and billionaires don't often hear "no." Also note the apparent dysfunction in the group. Is it any wonder that they are taking one last shot at finding a way to make the dream come true? Aligning with the NFL owners' new golden boy will help them down the road when it's time to call in some favors and change some minds in the league office. Edited July 23, 2014 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET1062 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) kdiggz and TheFunPolice, keep up the good fight! I am behind you 100%, not 110% because that is stupid! Future owner? I think not! Edited July 23, 2014 by ET1062 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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