FireChan Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They're most certainly not immaterial. I'll tell you what an increased body count gives Israel, though. Less peace, less security and more members of Hamas. You better hope not. That leads to Israel thinking they should drive that body count to 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I won't dispute those claims (seeing as we've talked about them in circles and you both refuse to change your minds). So let's say this. Is the blockade and "land dispute" worth those civilians' lives? Is that what you're trying to say? The aggression of Hamas and all that comes with it is worth it? I remember a culture believing that the violence was worth it. They live on reservations now. Honestly, I think its silly to be strictly taking sides. Anyone that thinks Israel is blameless or somehow not guilty of land grabs and mindless cruelty is blind. I only point out the Israeli faults because it seems the evils of Hamas are well pointed out in the media and on this board. They all hate each other, and no one is blameless. Ignoring Israel's obvious faults makes no sense to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Ywah well lying that hamas was responsible for kidnappings has 56 IDF dead Proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Seriously this is getting ridiculous. Who in the H E double hockey sticks would ever want any Canadian land? Just go to the 7-11 and get some ice. Lol, its cold enough in Western New York. I don't get why anyone would want to go any further north Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Proof? He's referring to the New Yorker Magazine "faux headline" article. Taken apart here: "Did Israel Say Hamas Didn’t Kidnap Its Teens? No." http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180617/did-israel-say-hamas-didnt-kidnap-its-teens-no and here: NY Magazine’s contribution to the propaganda war against Israel FTA: There was only one problem with the headline: It contradicted the text of the article, which was far less definitive and actually disproved the headline. The text of the article cited a tweet by Sheera Frenkel of Buzzfeed (more on her coverage here) and Jon Donnison of the BBC to the effect that the Israeli police spokesman (whose agency was not even heading up the investigation) allegedy admitted it was a “lone” Hamas cell involved. The police spokesman denies using the term “lone cell.” But even if he did, there is a huge leap in logic and proof from a “lone” Hamas cell being involved to Hamas not being involved. A cell structure is how Hamas operates in the West Bank, unlike Gaza where it controls the territory. So the text demonstrated that Hamas was involved, consistent with its policy of encouraging its cells to engage in kidnapping: A few months ago Hamas published an 18-page booklet entitled “Guide for the Kidnapper,” which includes operational guidelines for carrying out kidnappings. For example, the guide recommends to carry out kidnappings on rainy days, to use pistols with silencers, to use backup cars to move the victims and kidnappers, to know Hebrew well and to speak it, to rent hideouts in an unsuspicious location, and not to report immediately on the kidnapping until the victims are in a safe hiding place. This “lone cell” or “rogue” group theory was not news in late July — there had been much press coverage of the possible lack of central Hamas command involvement for weeks. For example, in late June Al Monitor documented the Hamas group involved and referred to it as “rogue,” Accused kidnappers are rogue Hamas branch. Whether rogue or not, a “lone cell” or not, such speculation was not new or news at the time of the NY Magazine article. It’s only when NY Magazine converted the alleged lack of a central Hamas (Gaza) command directive into a word game of whether “Hamas” was involved that the anti-Israel propagandists had the headline they wanted. But there was no basis in NY Magazine’s report or sources for claiming no Hamas involvement at all. There is a second level of deception in the post, the linkage of the Israeli reaction to the kidnapping and blame placed on Hamas to the current war. In fact, the actual fighting now going on in Gaza was a result of Hamas firing large scale rocket barrages at Israeli cities, not the kidnapping. It’s true that Israel cracked down on Hamas in the “West Bank” after the kidnappings and during the search. But the fighting itself and subsequent ground incursion was a result of Hamas in Gaza firing large volumes of rockets at Israeli cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Honestly, I think its silly to be strictly taking sides. Anyone that thinks Israel is blameless or somehow not guilty of land grabs and mindless cruelty is blind. I only point out the Israeli faults because it seems the evils of Hamas are well pointed out in the media and on this board. They all hate each other, and no one is blameless. Ignoring Israel's obvious faults makes no sense to me Who cares about the blame? The only thing that matters, when both sides can point to the other for fault, is who wins and who surrenders or is annihilated. Which is why JtSP's posts are ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 He's referring to the New Yorker Magazine "faux headline" article. Taken apart here: "Did Israel Say Hamas Didn’t Kidnap Its Teens? No." http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180617/did-israel-say-hamas-didnt-kidnap-its-teens-no and here: NY Magazine’s contribution to the propaganda war against Israel FTA: There was only one problem with the headline: It contradicted the text of the article, which was far less definitive and actually disproved the headline. The text of the article cited a tweet by Sheera Frenkel of Buzzfeed (more on her coverage here) and Jon Donnison of the BBC to the effect that the Israeli police spokesman (whose agency was not even heading up the investigation) allegedy admitted it was a “lone” Hamas cell involved. The police spokesman denies using the term “lone cell.” But even if he did, there is a huge leap in logic and proof from a “lone” Hamas cell being involved to Hamas not being involved. A cell structure is how Hamas operates in the West Bank, unlike Gaza where it controls the territory. So the text demonstrated that Hamas was involved, consistent with its policy of encouraging its cells to engage in kidnapping: A few months ago Hamas published an 18-page booklet entitled “Guide for the Kidnapper,” which includes operational guidelines for carrying out kidnappings. For example, the guide recommends to carry out kidnappings on rainy days, to use pistols with silencers, to use backup cars to move the victims and kidnappers, to know Hebrew well and to speak it, to rent hideouts in an unsuspicious location, and not to report immediately on the kidnapping until the victims are in a safe hiding place. This “lone cell” or “rogue” group theory was not news in late July — there had been much press coverage of the possible lack of central Hamas command involvement for weeks. For example, in late June Al Monitor documented the Hamas group involved and referred to it as “rogue,” Accused kidnappers are rogue Hamas branch. Whether rogue or not, a “lone cell” or not, such speculation was not new or news at the time of the NY Magazine article. It’s only when NY Magazine converted the alleged lack of a central Hamas (Gaza) command directive into a word game of whether “Hamas” was involved that the anti-Israel propagandists had the headline they wanted. But there was no basis in NY Magazine’s report or sources for claiming no Hamas involvement at all. There is a second level of deception in the post, the linkage of the Israeli reaction to the kidnapping and blame placed on Hamas to the current war. In fact, the actual fighting now going on in Gaza was a result of Hamas firing large scale rocket barrages at Israeli cities, not the kidnapping. It’s true that Israel cracked down on Hamas in the “West Bank” after the kidnappings and during the search. But the fighting itself and subsequent ground incursion was a result of Hamas in Gaza firing large volumes of rockets at Israeli cities. That last paragraph is partially right. Yes, the fighting is due to rockets being launched at Israel but that was only in response to the bombs that hit Gaza, first. Let's not forget that. This really is pretty convenient for Israel. Wars are fought for usually two reasons, land and natural resources. The truth will be revealed when Israel occupies Gaza once again, if they can. They're trying to beat them into submission right now. There is a ton of natural gas in Gaza and Israel wants/needs it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 This really is pretty convenient for Israel. Wars are fought for usually two reasons, land and natural resources. The truth will be revealed when Israel occupies Gaza once again, if they can. They're trying to beat them into submission right now. There is a ton of natural gas in Gaza and Israel wants/needs it. Educate yourself again. The gas fields are in the Mediterranean not in Gaza. I ask again, are your people better off now than they were in 1999? What has changed since that time? Why do you follow and trust suicidal fanatics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Educate yourself again. The gas fields are in the Mediterranean not in Gaza. I ask again, are your people better off now than they were in 1999? What has changed since that time? Why do you follow and trust suicidal fanatics? They're in Gaza. After they were discovered that's when the blockade began. Coincidence? They don't want the people of Gaza to get their hands on it. Edited July 31, 2014 by NoJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) That last paragraph is partially right. Yes, the fighting is due to rockets being launched at Israel but that was only in response to the bombs that hit Gaza, first. Let's not forget that. This really is pretty convenient for Israel. Wars are fought for usually two reasons, land and natural resources. The truth will be revealed when Israel occupies Gaza once again, if they can. They're trying to beat them into submission right now. There is a ton of natural gas in Gaza and Israel wants/needs it. Israel doesn't need to occupy Gaza in order to extract natural gas. The NG is in the Mediterranian, and only a very small amount of it is in front of Gaza. Gaza doesn't have a navy or an air force. The Israeli's don't need Gaza to take it. But still they haven't. Instead, they've fully acknowledged the Palestinian's claims on the resource. They're in Gaza. After they were discovered that's when the blockade began. Coincidence? They don't want the people of Gaza to get their hands on it. No, the only natural gas resource Gaza has in in the Gaza Marine offshore natural gas reserves. Edited July 31, 2014 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They're in Gaza. After they were discovered that's when the blockade began. Coincidence? They don't want the people of Gaza to get their hands on it. Are you absolutely positively sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Israel doesn't need to occupy Gaza in order to extract natural gas. The NG is in the Mediterranian, and only a very small amount of it is in front of Gaza. Gaza doesn't have a navy or an air force. The Israeli's don't need Gaza to take it. But still they haven't. Instead, they've fully acknowledged the Palestinian's claims on the resource. No, the only natural gas resource Gaza has in in the Gaza Marine offshore natural gas reserves. They acknowledged the Palestinians' claim to it? That's nice, they just make sure they can never get there hands on it. My question for you is, if Israel were to take those resources for themselves will your opinion about them change? Are you absolutely positively sure about that? I'm not certain where they are exactly. I just know it belongs to Gaza. Edited July 31, 2014 by NoJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They acknowledged the Palestinians' claim to it? That's nice, they just make sure they can never get there hands on it. My question for you is, if Israel were to take those resources for themselves will your opinion about them change? I'm not certain where they are exactly. I just know it belongs to Gaza. Israel doesn't need the Gaza gas fields because Leviathan & Tamar provide more than enough gas for its needs, plus export. There is a strategic rationale for not allowing Hamas access to the field. Again, it's a matter of dealing with a trusted partner. And, oh BTW, the fields were discovered in 2009. Tell us again when the blockade started? So, shall we go back to the OP, where you claimed that the rest of the world was ignorant and you were the one telling the truth? So far, none of your truisms have turned out to be true. Maybe you should take a look at the situation with a fresh set of eyes and different news sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They're in Gaza. After they were discovered that's when the blockade began. Coincidence? They don't want the people of Gaza to get their hands on it. What's the Egyptians' reasons, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronc24 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Israel doesn't need the Gaza gas fields because Leviathan & Tamar provide more than enough gas for its needs, plus export. There is a strategic rationale for not allowing Hamas access to the field. Again, it's a matter of dealing with a trusted partner. And, oh BTW, the fields were discovered in 2009. Tell us again when the blockade started? So, shall we go back to the OP, where you claimed that the rest of the world was ignorant and you were the one telling the truth? So far, none of your truisms have turned out to be true. Maybe you should take a look at the situation with a fresh set of eyes and different news sources? That would require setting aside a lifetime of hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 They acknowledged the Palestinians' claim to it? That's nice, they just make sure they can never get there hands on it. Hamas has made sure that the Palestinians can never get their hands on it. If Hamas had invested aid and resources into developmental infrastructure, as opposed to building a network of tunnels and destroying agricultural aid, and had instead engaged in a peaceful economic partnership, the Palestinian people would, at this time, be well on their way to fossil fuel wealth. My question for you is, if Israel were to take those resources for themselves will your opinion about them change? It depends on the escalation which directly preceded it, and the immediate circumstances, but generally speaking, I would be opposed. I'm not certain where they are exactly. I just know it belongs to Gaza. It does belong to Gaza, as Israel freely acknowledges, though they never needed to. If the Israelis wanted it, as you say they do, they simply would have claimed it. And, again, it's located in the Gaza Marine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Proof? That hamas kidnapped the teens? Yeah where is it. Because right now 56 nice Jewish boys are dead over it. If that were an American president getting young Americans killed you better believe there'd be intense scrutiny. How about those "self reflective" Israelis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That hamas kidnapped the teens? Yeah where is it. Because right now 56 nice Jewish boys are dead over it. If that were an American president getting young Americans killed you better believe there'd be intense scrutiny. How about those "self reflective" Israelis? So Americans are better than Israelis, huh? Keep it up Joe. I think we're a couple pages away from you tossing around the word kike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 That hamas kidnapped the teens? Yeah where is it. Because right now 56 nice Jewish boys are dead over it. If that were an American president getting young Americans killed you better believe there'd be intense scrutiny. How about those "self reflective" Israelis? Your sarcasm (poor btw) is very telling. You really can't keep your hatred from showing, can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 White House now saying there's little doubt the UNRWA school was hit by the IDF. Nice try, Italian dude. (Not meazza) lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts