Michael Sam is out.

[Captain Caveman]

Everyone's dancing around the question like Ali. Would you prefer that your son is gay? Yes or no.

 

I have three daughters and I'm pretty sure I won't be having anymore children. My 14 and 12 year olds appear to be straight. The little one is only two so I'm not sure about her yet. If any of them were gay I'd obviously still love them. I won't be happy about it, though.

 

Not dancing around the question at all. I don't actively want my son to be straight or gay. I want him to be who he is. If he's gay I will not be disappointed, and I'll be proud if he feels comfortable being himself. If you don't understand that then it's not worth explaining further.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Captain Caveman

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

I know that this wasn't directed at me, but I hope my son lives in a world where he can be himself, as long as he treats others as he would want to be treated.

 

I get tired of hearing this. Don't you think we have a little too much "being oneself" as the most important quality people want out of the world.

 

What if he likes to be treated like crap and disrespects himself? Would you be accepting of that? Of course, he is then (by you account) free to do the same to others.

 

Are there any rules applied to what you said? Isn't everybody, by what you are saying, free to make up their own set of social rules then?

 

What's next then? I am not usually a slippery slope guy, but where does one's sole purpose to be themselves end? Are the plural marriage people going to start pressing. You know, they are just being themselves.

Edited February 12, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[Jauronimo]

Juronimo –

 

Dear Lord..

 

Tim-

Go ahead. Explain your motivation for the post about how "ole Sam", an openly gay college athlete, isn't so courageous after all and the "cynic" (not to be confused with the now reformed homophobe in you) is skeptical that ole Sam would have come out after the draft. Where were you going with that one?

 

I'm sure that post emanated from a place of love seeing as you've changed your ways. Your complete 180 on the issue in only 2 short years is nothing short of remarkable.

[Captain Caveman]

 

 

I get tired of hearing this. Don't you think we have a little too much "being oneself" as the most important quality people want out of the world.

 

What if he likes to be treated like crap and disrespects himself? Would you be accepting of that? Of course, he is then (by you account) free to do the same to others.

 

Are there any rules applied to what you said? Isn't everybody, by what you are saying, free to make up their own set of social rules then?

 

What's next then? I am not usually a slippery slope guy, but where does one's sole purpose to be themselves end? Are the plural marriage people going to start pressing. You know, they are just being themselves.

 

You're reaching real !@#$ing far.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

Not dancing around the question at all. I don't actively want my son to be straight or gay. I want him to be who he is. If he's gay I will not be disappointed, and I'll be proud if he feels comfortable being himself. If you don't understand that then it's not worth explaining further.

 

I understand that. But, where do you draw the line?

[Numark]

 

 

I understand that. But, where do you draw the line?

 

What line

[Captain Caveman]

 

 

I understand that. But, where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at treating other people poorly. It's an easy line to draw.

[Jauronimo]

What line

The one which demarcates unconditional parental love.

[NoSaint]

 

 

What line

 

probably spiraling towards a beerball intervention again or possible move to PPP...

[RuntheDamnBall]

I understand that. But, where do you draw the line?

You teach your kids to act ethically, and to respect others and expect the same from them, and you let them be themselves by discovering their own identity including whom they love, what they have gifts for, and how they can best make contributions to the world. The sh-- is hard but this isn't a real Rubik's cube of a puzzle here that you're making it out to be.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

You're reaching real !@#$ing far.

 

IMO, not really. It has always been my stance. You want that societal line just pushed far enough that it benefits what you feel is important and then have it stop. Where are the limits? You've expressed belief in a society that appears to have no limits. Just an unlimitless ability to make oneself feel that they can be themselves. IMO, that is a dangerous, open ended road to go down. A road that cares only about oneself and doesn't think of others in society.

[RuntheDamnBall]

IMO, not really. It has always been my stance. You want that societal line just pushed far enough that it benefits what you feel is important and then have it stop. Where are the limits? You've expressed belief in a society that appears to have no limits. Just an unlimitless ability to make oneself feel that they can be themselves. IMO, that is a dangerous, open ended road to go down. A road that cares only about oneself and doesn't think of others in society.

That is not at all what he is saying. And as a close personal friend of CC believe me you are really reaching.

[Captain Caveman]

 

 

I get tired of hearing this. Don't you think we have a little too much "being oneself" as the most important quality people want out of the world.

 

What if he likes to be treated like crap and disrespects himself? Would you be accepting of that? Of course, he is then (by you account) free to do the same to others.

 

Are there any rules applied to what you said? Isn't everybody, by what you are saying, free to make up their own set of social rules then?

 

What's next then? I am not usually a slippery slope guy, but where does one's sole purpose to be themselves end? Are the plural marriage people going to start pressing. You know, they are just being themselves.

 

If my earlier post needs elaboration, here's why I think you're reaching real far. I hope and assume that my son and any other future offspring will grow up without wanting to be treated poorly. Because that's not a thing. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying it's far down the list of things I'm worried about. Far, far !@#$ing down.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Captain Caveman

[Numark]

 

 

IMO, not really. It has always been my stance. You want that societal line just pushed far enough that it benefits what you feel is important and then have it stop. Where are the limits? You've expressed belief in a society that appears to have no limits. Just an unlimitless ability to make oneself feel that they can be themselves. IMO, that is a dangerous, open ended road to go down. A road that cares only about oneself and doesn't think of others in society.

 

How about humans? That's an easy line to draw. Marrying another human is the line

[Captain Caveman]

 

 

IMO, not really. It has always been my stance. You want that societal line just pushed far enough that it benefits what you feel is important and then have it stop. Where are the limits? You've expressed belief in a society that appears to have no limits. Just an unlimitless ability to make oneself feel that they can be themselves. IMO, that is a dangerous, open ended road to go down. A road that cares only about oneself and doesn't think of others in society.

bull ****. The limit is, don't cause harm to others. Hopefully, do one better and help others.

[Justice]

Therein lies the problem. You people believe it's normal. I don't. Maybe it's because I never dealt with the problem first hand. I don't have any gay friends or family members and I come from a very big family.

 

My views may be outdated, but that's just me. I'm old school and I believe old school morals are better than today's, except for the racism.

 

Homosexuality, to me, is a sickness that can't be cured. People are born with various conditions and that's just one of them. That's how I look at it. It still ain't "the norm".

 

PS. Speaking for team hetero, I'd like to thank all the straight people in my past for my very existence. I'm glad you were who you were and made me what I am today.

 

 

[RuntheDamnBall]

Yeah, this is definitely going into PPP territory.

 

So, as a tweener, which team does Sam have the best chance of excelling on?

 

Seattle? NE? What about a team that isn't already good? Could the Bills use him?

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

You teach your kids to act ethically, and to respect others and expect the same from them, and you let them be themselves by discovering their own identity including whom they love, what they have gifts for, and how they can best make contributions to the world. The sh-- is hard but this isn't a real Rubik's cube of a puzzle here that you're making it out to be.

 

I disagree. It is a real Rubik's Cube puzzle. Take a close look @ all the drama people go through. Playing devil's advocate here, many people believe certain sexual relationships are disrespecting. Just saying.

[sodbuster]

 

 

Let me ask you this one question. If you had a first born child on the way would you want him to be gay?

If/when I have kids, as long as they are Bills fans, I want them to be happy. As happy as a Bills fan can be.

 

Edit-No fat chicks though. I draw the line there.

Edited February 12, 2014 by sodbuster

[ExiledInIllinois]

Yeah, this is definitely going into PPP territory.

 

So, as a tweener, which team does Sam have the best chance of excelling on?

 

Seattle? NE? What about a team that isn't already good? Could the Bills use him?

 

I hear you and I will stop pressing. Mods, please delete my posts if I crossed the line.

 

 

[Captain Caveman]

As happy as a Bills fan can be.

End thread.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Therein lies the problem. You people believe it's normal. I don't. Maybe it's because I never dealt with the problem first hand. I don't have any gay friends or family members and I come from a very big family.

 

My views may be outdated, but that's just me. I'm old school and I believe old school morals are better than today's, except for the racism.

The racists of the 60s might have admitted that slavery was wrong but felt that they were still genetically superior. The world changes, attitudes evolve. Morals have been used as an excuse for every crime and injustice under the sun. That's why I steer towards ethics when possible.

 

If, as you suggest, homosexuality can't be "cured," - a term I take issue with but I'll let it go - is the answer to treat gay people with no respect, or to just admit you don't understand their world, but that they are free to live their lives so long as they are not harming others?

 

I disagree. It is a real Rubik's Cube puzzle. Take a close look @ all the drama people go through. Playing devil's advocate here, many people believe certain sexual relationships are disrespecting. Just saying.

If they are between consenting adults that have been raised to respect each other and are not harming others, then they draw their own boundaries and it's none of anyone's business.

[thebandit27]

Yeah, this is definitely going into PPP territory.

 

So, as a tweener, which team does Sam have the best chance of excelling on?

 

Seattle? NE? What about a team that isn't already good? Could the Bills use him?

 

Most likely a successful team with good leadership and a need for a situational pass rusher. Teams that come to mind are:

 

NE

Seattle

Cincinnati

Pittsburgh

Indy

Denver

San Diego

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

What line

 

And there is the modern societal problem. There is no line of any kind.

[NoSaint]

Yeah, this is definitely going into PPP territory.

 

So, as a tweener, which team does Sam have the best chance of excelling on?

 

Seattle? NE? What about a team that isn't already good? Could the Bills use him?

 

for the bills, itll depend on schwartz. in a wide 9 an undersized speed end is useful, but im not sure hes athletic enough... and of course, who knows if thats what hes running.

 

seattles "leo" position seems like it could be a good fit, and i think that organization could be forward thinking enough to create a great locker room culture for him to be accepted into. For all shermans antics hes a smart guy, wilson is a leader that seems like would handle it well, and pete carroll i think would rally the team to embrace winning over distractions like that.

[Justice]

 

The racists of the 60s might have admitted that slavery was wrong but felt that they were still genetically superior. The world changes, attitudes evolve. Morals have been used as an excuse for every crime and injustice under the sun. That's why I steer towards ethics when possible.

 

If, as you suggest, homosexuality can't be "cured," - a term I take issue with but I'll let it go - is the answer to treat gay people with no respect, or to just admit you don't understand their world, but that they are free to live their lives so long as they are not harming others?

 

 

If they are between consenting adults that have been raised to respect each other and are not harming others, then they draw their own boundaries and it's none of anyone's business.

 

As I've said many times before I don't care if people are gay. I've come across gay people at the workplace a lot over the years and yes I do treat them with respect. Will I champion their cause? No, but I won't go out of my way to harm it either. Live and let live.

 

Michael Sam is one brave individual. I commend him for that. If the Bills draft him I'd treat him like every other Bill that came and went. Makes no difference to me.

[RuntheDamnBall]

for the bills, itll depend on schwartz. in a wide 9 an undersized speed end is useful, but im not sure hes athletic enough... and of course, who knows if thats what hes running.

 

seattles "leo" position seems like it could be a good fit, and i think that organization could be forward thinking enough to create a great locker room culture for him to be accepted into. For all shermans antics hes a smart guy, wilson is a leader that seems like would handle it well, and pete carroll i think would rally the team to embrace winning over distractions like that.

I wonder about Wilson - this is pure conjecture. He seems like a super guy. He is also a very vocal, professed Christian. I know that the Athletes in Action and FCA organizations have had pretty regressive attitudes towards gays in the past though I have no idea where they stand now, nor do I know if Wilson is a member. We have no idea what players cut from that cloth like Reich, Kelly, Beebe or Metzelaars personally would have said back in the day, though I do know that their era was a pretty different one.

[dubs]

I get tired of hearing this. Don't you think we have a little too much "being oneself" as the most important quality people want out of the world.

 

What if he likes to be treated like crap and disrespects himself? Would you be accepting of that? Of course, he is then (by you account) free to do the same to others.

 

Are there any rules applied to what you said? Isn't everybody, by what you are saying, free to make up their own set of social rules then?

 

What's next then? I am not usually a slippery slope guy, but where does one's sole purpose to be themselves end? Are the plural marriage people going to start pressing. You know, they are just being themselves.

 

Re: the point I think you are trying to make with a set of rules society needs to live by, I do agree with you. I think there is WAY too much bending over backward to accommodate everyone today. That said, I don't think this fits into that category.

 

I think there are plenty of other areas, though, that do fall into this category. Things like not saying the pledge in schools because the word God is used, or changing the name of a football team because a small minority of people find it offensive, even though there is no offensive intent in that name.

 

People would be much better off having a thicker skin than worrying about everyone else. For example, I saw yesterday that a person is suing their employer because she doesn't identify as a man or woman, but her co-workers referred to her as "she" and "miss". She is essentially claiming that the employer should re-write commonly accepted social norms simply because she wants to be called a made up pronoun, zie. Its insane.

 

Again, that being said, I don't think Sam falls into this category, but think your premise has merit as it applies to other areas of society. Sam is just trying to live his life and not asking for any special treatment. Just an opportunity that anyone else would want that's put in the time and effort to master his craft.

Edited February 12, 2014 by dubs

[Jauronimo]

As I've said many times before I don't care if people are gay. I've come across gay people at the workplace a lot over the years and yes I do treat them with respect. Will I champion their cause? No, but I won't go out of my way to harm it either. Live and let live.

 

Michael Sam is one brave individual. I commend him for that. If the Bills draft him I'd treat him like every other Bill that came and went. Makes no difference to me.

What is their cause again?

[NoSaint]

 

I wonder about Wilson - this is pure conjecture. He seems like a super guy. He is also a very vocal, professed Christian. I know that the Athletes in Action and FCA organizations have had pretty regressive attitudes towards gays in the past though I have no idea where they stand now, nor do I know if Wilson is a member. We have no idea what players cut from that cloth like Reich, Kelly, Beebe or Metzelaars personally would have said back in the day, though I do know that their era was a pretty different one.

 

my guess on wilson is that even if he doesnt back it personally, he would be able to still be a champion in the locker room and put team before self.

[Coach Tuesday]

As I've said many times before I don't care if people are gay. I've come across gay people at the workplace a lot over the years and yes I do treat them with respect. Will I champion their cause? No, but I won't go out of my way to harm it either. Live and let live.

 

Michael Sam is one brave individual. I commend him for that. If the Bills draft him I'd treat him like every other Bill that came and went. Makes no difference to me.

 

Your views are prehistoric, wholly out of date, and the definition of bigoted in that they arise from irrational impulses (disgust, in your case) and project those impulses outwards to classify an entire group of people. That is the best I can do without insulting you, which I'm finding difficult...

 

Your claimed disgust for homosexual sex is wholly irrational. Are you aware that heterosexual couples engage in the same sex act? Do you find that disgusting? Men and women do some pretty disgusting things to each other, yet you seem to be able to move past that (Go "Team Hetero"!).

 

Personally, I couldn't care in the least if my son turns out to be gay. I just hope he isn't a close-minded moron like ____.

[Justice]

 

What is their cause again?

 

You don't need me to answer that question. They want to be treated like everyone else and that's fine, but I'm not going to any gay pride parades any time soon.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2014 by NoJustice

[RuntheDamnBall]

You don't need me to answer that question. They want to be treated like everyone else and that's fine, but I'm not going to any gay pride parades any time soon.

I wasn't aware that anyone was forced to attend.

[Jauronimo]

You don't need me to answer that question. They want to be treated like everyone else and that's fine, but I'm not going to any gay pride parades any time soon.

You don't have to put on the leather and fetish gear and lead the parade to support equality.

[Numark]

 

 

And there is the modern societal problem. There is no line of any kind.

 

No I just don't know what you are referring to. In what situation are you talking about needing to draw a line?

[dubs]

You don't have to put on the leather and fetish gear and lead the parade to support equality.

 

You don't even have to attend. Just giving everyone the same rights and opportunities is all this is really about. I happen to believe that we are already there in that regard. There are laws that are enforced that ensure no matter what your race, sex, creed, or sexual orientation are that you have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else. That's all that really matters.

 

We are never going to get to a point where everyone 'likes' everyone else. And that's fine. What's amazing to me is how quickly we forget the times when the only thing that matters is being American. Right after 9/11 was the best example of this in recent memory. The last thing that anyone cared about were the differences we had, but rather we only cared about our commonality, being American.

Edited February 12, 2014 by dubs

[Justice]

 

 

Your views are prehistoric, wholly out of date, and the definition of bigoted in that they arise from irrational impulses (disgust, in your case) and project those impulses outwards to classify an entire group of people. That is the best I can do without insulting you, which I'm finding difficult...

 

Your claimed disgust for homosexual sex is wholly irrational. Are you aware that heterosexual couples engage in the same sex act? Do you find that disgusting? Men and women do some pretty disgusting things to each other, yet you seem to be able to move past that (Go "Team Hetero"!).

 

Personally, I couldn't care in the least if my son turns out to be gay. I just hope he isn't a close-minded moron like ____.

 

I guess the human anatomy doesn't mean a damn thing to you. Men and women have working parts that go hand in hand. God made us like this. It's the only way we can reproduce. I've already stated that anal sex is disgusting and it makes no difference who is doing it, you do know what comes out of there, right?

 

It's irrational to be disgusted by that? Please.

Edited February 12, 2014 by NoJustice

[Kirby Jackson]

Trying to turn this back into a football discussion will ultimately just revert back to "is the world ready for a gay player in the locker room." We are already doing that by talking about Russell Wilson and his religion.

 

This conversation may never evolve into a football conversation until the people involved evolve. The only way that people are going to evolve is through experience and interaction. No Justice said that he does not have any gay friends or family members. What Sam did was open the door for more people to come out and be themselves. As this happens people like No Justice may come to learn that they are not that bad.

 

The same thing happened in the 60's and since when it comes to race relations. People of different races got to know one another on a personal level and it started breaking down the hatred.

[Jauronimo]

No I just don't know what you are referring to. In what situation are you talking about needing to draw a line?

I find it funny that while discussing just how accepting of homosexuality we should be he also has declared that nothing is taboo anymore. There are no lines.

[NoSaint]

 

 

No I just don't know what you are referring to. In what situation are you talking about needing to draw a line?

 

i think that hes pointing at a line that exists between loving who you want, and loving to kill people. im pretty sure hes demanding the firm cutoff point for parental support of happiness. as RTDB said, its certainly blurry but... well... c'mon man...