BillsFan-4-Ever Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I don't want either long-term Manuel isn't an accurate enough passer how can you say that? weeks 1 - 4 were his first ever games and against good defenses. weeks 5-9 he didn't play, week 10 he showed rust against the usually good Steelers D Week 11 was VERY good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Yeah, but that's your "Bills fan" take on it. Look at the assumption that you made to come up with that take. "Assume they are the pictures of the coverages," but what if they were pictures of the plays he knows and has memorized? What if they guy had said, "Geno we're going to try this" and he glanced, recognized it, and the guy took it away? Context is key, as well. Was it when the game was basically over or just after the first pick? Was he pissed at himself for losing a game all by himself? I'd rather have that kind of anger and emotion than have the QB smiling on the sidelines. Funny how when Brady makes a mistake and looks all pissed on the sidelines, the spiel is that "he's not happy with himself and that play" but when Geno gets pissed at a mistake, "he's pouty and not a leader." Really an individual interpretation thing, and has no basis in analysis when the only evidence is a 5 second snippet from the CBS coverage. You denigrate others' opinions based on your belief that I (we) are only able to have "Bills fan" opinions. Well then, based on your posts on this thread alone, you must be a "Geno apologist". Let me break down the fallacies of your reply. First, you talk of assumptions while assuming that we only dislike Geno because we are Bills fans. In actuality, your assumption is much worse because, where as I only know the little I've seen of him for the past 3 years, you know nothing about me. Here are some facts about me: 1. I don't have a favorite college team, so when I saw him pouting on the sidelines in college during losses, I disliked what I saw. Must just be me being a "Bills fan". 2. I love hockey and bball, but my second favorite "sport" is offseason football. I watch every bit of pre draft analysis I can find. When I saw Geno on Gruden's QB Camp, I didn't like his defensive body language when being criticized. In order, my favorite 3 were Ej, Nassib, and Wilson and my least favorite were Bray, Geno, and Glennon. I also listened to a lot of what the insiders said. There was a lot of talk prior to the draft about how Geno wasn't a leader and always liked to pass blame to others when things didn't go right. The same things were said about RG3 pre draft, and that is starting to look true now as well. Then there was the draft. After not getting drafted in the 1st round, he wanted to leave cus he "should have been the first QB taken". I guess that is just myself and all of those analysts and insiders being "Bills fans". Fast forward to the offseason and training camp. Every year, Sanchez holds a "Jets West" camp for all of the players on the team to come together and work out and work on routes and such when actual organized team activities aren't allowed. Geno didn't go. This created controversy. When asked, Sanchez said that of course Geno was welcome, that all players were welcome. When after that they interviewed Geno, he said something to the effect of "He didn't specifically invite me." Later in training camp, former WVU teammates came out saying that Geno wasn't a good leader and that he never took responsibility for things. An anonymous coach for WVU said the same thing (I know anonymous quotes are for cowards but still). They must have been "Bills fans". 3. I am a Bills fan. So when you bring up Brady in a comparison to how Geno acts, I couldn't possibly defend him. But alas, I am. It is ludicrous for you to compare the actions of Brady to those of Geno. On one point, you are right. Brady does rip into his teammates. Geno doesn't, he pouts. As for it being a double standard, it damn well should be. Last I checked, Brady has been to 5 Super Bowls, winning three. Geno has zero. Brady is the longest tenured player on the Patriots, Geno is one of the shortest. Brady is only used to winning, Geno has not had the chance yet. I guess that's just me being a "Bills f...", err Pats fan. 4. I sadly watch every Bills game twice. Once emotionally, once objectively. I saw the incident I referenced a few times. He didn't glance and see the sheets, he just pushed them away. To your point of him possibly having the plays memorized and having recognized them, thus not needing to look. WOW. If my QB is playing that poorly and making such awful decisions, I couldn't possibly believe he recognized any of it. Lastly I'll say this, my eyes see what they see even if you try to explain it by calling it a "Bills fan" opinion. Say what you want, I'll hold to my axiom. If someone craps in my hand and guarantees me it's chocolate, I'm still not eating it. Edited November 20, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 i'm a big EJ fan.... #1- i'm so thankful that EJ outplayed Geno. i really didn't want to hear we picked the wrong QB in that draft. #2- EJ is like a better version of tim tebow. all the intangibles with some accuracy issues. #3- getting another starter level QB through free agency or the draft is still needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l< j Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Did anyone link to this discussion of EJ? All-22 looks at a few select plays that were high-quality, plus a few where he didn't do so well. http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/11/20/5124610/ej-manuel-highlights-all-22-four-best-rookie-season-throws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Did anyone link to this discussion of EJ? All-22 looks at a few select plays that were high-quality, plus a few where he didn't do so well. http://www.buffaloru...e-season-throws \ great article. Some really encouraging stuff. The fact that EJ is making some of the right mental decisions is great. That is more than half the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Funny how when Brady makes a mistake and looks all pissed on the sidelines, the spiel is that "he's not happy with himself and that play" but when Geno gets pissed at a mistake, "he's pouty and not a leader." Equally when Brady acted like that earlier this season and got all shouty on the sidelines he himself came out after and said "I need to control my emotions better - it's not good for the team." That's a leader. A guy who understands that his job is to stay on the level. Leaders should not be flying off the handle or getting all stroppy when they make a bad play, because if I'm Geno's teammate and I look across at him having a sulk when he has thrown a pick it doesn't transmit a positive message. Everyone loses it occasionally, but people who watched Geno in the back half of last season in College saw this kind of sulking then too as things unravelled. Leadership is ultimately about control. If you don't have control of your emotions (that doesn't mean necessarily not shaowing any by the way... but it means knowing and calculating the emotion that you display) then you can't lead because if you can't control yourself how do you control what's happening around you? Geno Smith will never be a leader. Doesn't mean he can never be an NFL level starting Quarterback (although personally I have some doubts about that too) because I'd argue that Joe Flacco wasn't the leader of that Ravens team that won a Superbowl in February even though his play was at an elite level in the play-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 1. You denigrate others' opinions based on your belief that I (we) are only able to have "Bills fan" opinions. Well then, based on your posts on this thread alone, you must be a "Geno apologist". Let me break down the fallacies of your reply. 2. First, you talk of assumptions while assuming that we only dislike Geno because we are Bills fans. In actuality, your assumption is much worse because, where as I only know the little I've seen of him for the past 3 years, you know nothing about me. Here are some facts about me: 3. I don't have a favorite college team, so when I saw him pouting on the sidelines in college during losses, I disliked what I saw. Must just be me being a "Bills fan". 4. I love hockey and bball, but my second favorite "sport" is offseason football. I watch every bit of pre draft analysis I can find. When I saw Geno on Gruden's QB Camp, I didn't like his defensive body language when being criticized. In order, my favorite 3 were Ej, Nassib, and Wilson and my least favorite were Bray, Geno, and Glennon. I also listened to a lot of what the insiders said. There was a lot of talk prior to the draft about how Geno wasn't a leader and always liked to pass blame to others when things didn't go right. The same things were said about RG3 pre draft, and that is starting to look true now as well. Then there was the draft. After not getting drafted in the 1st round, he wanted to leave cus he "should have been the first QB taken". I guess that is just myself and all of those analysts and insiders being "Bills fans". 5. Fast forward to the offseason and training camp. Every year, Sanchez holds a "Jets West" camp for all of the players on the team to come together and work out and work on routes and such when actual organized team activities aren't allowed. Geno didn't go. This created controversy. When asked, Sanchez said that of course Geno was welcome, that all players were welcome. When after that they interviewed Geno, he said something to the effect of "He didn't specifically invite me." Later in training camp, former WVU teammates came out saying that Geno wasn't a good leader and that he never took responsibility for things. An anonymous coach for WVU said the same thing (I know anonymous quotes are for cowards but still). They must have been "Bills fans". 6. I am a Bills fan. So when you bring up Brady in a comparison to how Geno acts, I couldn't possibly defend him. But alas, I am. It is ludicrous for you to compare the actions of Brady to those of Geno. On one point, you are right. Brady does rip into his teammates. Geno doesn't, he pouts. As for it being a double standard, it damn well should be. Last I checked, Brady has been to 5 Super Bowls, winning three. Geno has zero. Brady is the longest tenured player on the Patriots, Geno is one of the shortest. Brady is only used to winning, Geno has not had the chance yet. I guess that's just me being a "Bills f...", err Pats fan. 7. I sadly watch every Bills game twice. Once emotionally, once objectively. I saw the incident I referenced a few times. He didn't glance and see the sheets, he just pushed them away. To your point of him possibly having the plays memorized and having recognized them, thus not needing to look. WOW. If my QB is playing that poorly and making such awful decisions, I couldn't possibly believe he recognized any of it. Lastly I'll say this, my eyes see what they see even if you try to explain it by calling it a "Bills fan" opinion. Say what you want, I'll hold to my axiom. If someone craps in my hand and guarantees me it's chocolate, I'm still not eating it. Seeing as I'm going to have to write a Dickens' novel reply to this, I hope it's all right that I break down your points into numbers and respond to them. 1. It was never my intention to "denigrate your opinion." I only wanted to exemplify that every little thing can be spun a different way. And let's face it, Geno not being a leader and being a bad QB would be a good thing for the Bills and our fandom. That's no stretch. 2. I never said the only reason that you disliked Geno was because you were a Bills fan. You're putting words in my mouth. 3., 4., 5. Really go together here. Seeing as you have 45 posts with a name like KikoSeeBall, I doubt you have been proclaiming your opinion about Geno too much on this board. That's okay, but you can't expect me to know or even assume you have done your homework. I can only read what I see. You referenced none of those things in your original post about Geno's leadership, merely that he pouted after a 3+ turnover game. Imagine if EJ looked pissed on the sidelines after a bad game and I said he wasn't a leader. You'd say I was looking at it in a vacuum and that I am insane. 6. Brady has also been in the NFL for 15+ years and is a 36 year old man, while Geno is a 20 year old kid, funny how none of that translated into sideline composure. 7. What point of the game was this? You still haven't told me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 \ great article. Some really encouraging stuff. The fact that EJ is making some of the right mental decisions is great. That is more than half the battle. 90% of the game is half mental. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) 7. What point of the game was this? You still haven't told me. I deleted the game after my second watch but I believe it was after Byrd's second pick with around 4-5 minutes to go in the third quarter. They would have been down 20. The game was almost out of reach but not entirely. Regardless of the situation, he is a rookie, and rookies should never just wave coaches away like that. I take that back, they can't wave them away unless it's in a "It's cool coach, I'm OK" manner in regards to an injury or an inquiry about their mental state. Even in that situation though body language matters. "Imagine if EJ looked pissed on the sidelines after a bad game and I said he wasn't a leader. You'd say I was looking at it in a vacuum and that I am insane." Good point. That would be and has been my exact reaction. Edited November 20, 2013 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beggar13 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Their records aren't even a fair comparison to be honest at Geno had two wins gift wrapped and handed to him by an awful penalty when they played the Bucs and a terrible call against the Patriots that gave them another free victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) I don't want either long-term Geno has very slow eyes, easily rattled by blitzes, and implodes easily Manuel isn't an accurate enough passer 20 of 28 is 71.4 percent College percentage something like 68 - sorry 67 - percent His receivers must have long arms with sticky hands.... Edited November 20, 2013 by baskin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 90% of the game is half mental. GO BILLS!!! I am not sure you can quantify that, but I agree that the mental stuff is critical to EJ being a successful NFL QB. Thankfully, he seems to be getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I deleted the game after my second watch but I believe it was after Byrd's second pick with around 4-5 minutes to go in the third quarter. They would have been down 20. The game was almost out of reach but not entirely. Regardless of the situation, he is a rookie, and rookies should never just wave coaches away like that. I take that back, they can't wave them away unless it's in a "It's cool coach, I'm OK" manner in regards to an injury or an inquiry about their mental state. Even in that situation though body language matters. "Imagine if EJ looked pissed on the sidelines after a bad game and I said he wasn't a leader. You'd say I was looking at it in a vacuum and that I am insane." Good point. That was my exact reaction when people got up in arms last week after the Pitt beating about a throw away comment he made that what he likes most about Buffalo are the pancakes. That was a fake quote. You need to read the posts a little more closely. 4-5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter? Wasn't he pulled after that series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 That was a fake quote. You need to read the posts a little more closely. 4-5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter? Wasn't he pulled after that series? Yeah. That's on me. I realized that after I went to find the example and saw the quote again. I already edited the post. After the second Byrd int they forced a punt. He threw the pick six to Searcy on the next drive. He played one more 3 and out drive after that. He never saw the 4th quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 90% of the game is half mental. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Yeah. That's on me. I realized that after I went to find the example and saw the quote again. I already edited the post. After the second Byrd int they forced a punt. He threw the pick six to Searcy on the next drive. He played one more 3 and out drive after that. He never saw the 4th quarter. I do see what you're saying. All signs point to "lack of leadership." Most people, however, haven't done your kind of research and they say stuff like, "I don't think Geno has the mental capacity to be a QB," which is a little outrageous to me. RG3 was a true leader last year. This year he looks like a whiny diva. Winning cures all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I think part of the issue is that the Quarterback position is seen as a natural leadership position.... but you can't make someone a leader even if they're a supremely naturally talented Quarterback. The two and two are often presumed to go hand in hand and I don't think they do. As I said above Joe Flacco's Quarterback play last post season was brilliant but everyone knows he wasn't really the leader of that team - the leaders were on the other side of the ball. People are now talking about the fact that there is a leadership void in Baltimore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 20 of 28 is 71.4 percent College percentage something like 68 - sorry 67 - percent His receivers must have long arms with sticky hands.... In a pretty bad wind no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 20 of 28 is 71.4 percent College percentage something like 68 - sorry 67 - percent His receivers must have long arms with sticky hands.... Stevie wasn't in the game dropping 2 or 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Well it's official. Geno stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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