Paying for education

[birdog1960]

i went to a liberal arts undergrad school. the mantra there was "learn to think". not learn to memorize formulas and equations that you'll forget the day after the test but learn how to reason out the solutions long after they've been forgotten. i think it's proven a successful approach for generations of students. many of my classmates that majored in humanities have ended up in successful careers in law, finance, business, government (yup, even on the national stage, the best known a republican ! gasp) and the arts. many of those majoring in the sciences can write and speak very well and have at least a basic knowledge of the humanities (cue the insults directed at me). do we really want to produce only technical graduates from our universities? i don't think so. we need left and right brained folks studying together. it widens their horizons (lord knows, we have folks with narrow horizons around) and fosters innovation. in college, it's often stimulating and inspiring to discuss difficult problems with others that seem wired to think in a different manner. not so much on ppp. in any model, i will emphasize again the need for admission selectivity. as a teaching assistant at a large public university, i tried to teach chemistry to kids who didn't understand fractions. that's not fair to any of the students or to society. it supports unrealistic expectations and it wastes time and resources.

Edited July 7, 2013 by birdog1960

[Just Jack]

Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices....

 

8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment

http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola

 

8. Sociology

7. Fine Arts

6. Education

5. Religious Studies/Theology

4. Hospitality/Tourism

3. Nutrition

2. Psychology

1. Communications

[birdog1960]

Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices....

 

8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment

http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola

 

8. Sociology

7. Fine Arts

6. Education

5. Religious Studies/Theology

4. Hospitality/Tourism

3. Nutrition

2. Psychology

1. Communications

without diversity in education, we risk this sad result that the japanese are currently experiencing to the detriment of their entire economy: http://thediplomat.com/pacific-money/2012/10/10/japans-lost-art-of-innovation/. automatons are not generally innovative.

[DC Tom]

i went to a liberal arts undergrad school. the mantra there was "learn to think".

 

Thanks. Now I have to explain to my wife why I'm laughing so damn hard.

[birdog1960]

Thanks. Now I have to explain to my wife why I'm laughing so damn hard.

as i said, not so much on ppp... Edited July 7, 2013 by birdog1960

[John Adams]

i went to a liberal arts undergrad school. the mantra there was "learn to think". not learn to memorize formulas and equations that you'll forget the day after the test but learn how to reason out the solutions long after they've been forgotten. i think it's proven a successful approach for generations of students. many of my classmates that majored in humanities have ended up in successful careers in law, finance, business, government (yup, even on the national stage, the best known a republican ! gasp) and the arts. many of those majoring in the sciences can write and speak very well and have at least a basic knowledge of the humanities (cue the insults directed at me). do we really want to produce only technical graduates from our universities? i don't think so. we need left and right brained folks studying together. it widens their horizons (lord knows, we have folks with narrow horizons around) and fosters innovation. in college, it's often stimulating and inspiring to discuss difficult problems with others that seem wired to think in a different manner. not so much on ppp. in any model, i will emphasize again the need for admission selectivity. as a teaching assistant at a large public university, i tried to teach chemistry to kids who didn't understand fractions. that's not fair to any of the students or to society. it supports unrealistic expectations and it wastes time and resources.

 

There are several things off about your post but I'll just hit one. The idea is not that we don't need liberal arts educated people, and in fact, I'm willing to posit that someone with a good liberal arts pedigree (not necessarily major, but at least well-read and thought out) will make an excellent scientist. The problem is that we have an enormous need for scientists, and American students don't want to do the work required to fill that need. Most students opt for the Communications degree or its equivalent and have nothing useful to offer society except a load of student debt and a warm body in their parents' basement.

[Fezmid]

Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices....

 

8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment

http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola

 

8. Sociology

7. Fine Arts

6. Education

5. Religious Studies/Theology

4. Hospitality/Tourism

3. Nutrition

2. Psychology

1. Communications

My wife has a degree in psychology from one of the better schools in the country. Even she admits it's worthless.

 

Of course she has turned it into a successful career -- she now runs a drug and alcohol rehab center. Not the most glamorous work and it isn't the most exceptional of pay, but it's much higher than average. She's just proof that hard working people will be successful and lazy people won't.

[DC Tom]

My wife has a degree in psychology from one of the better schools in the country. Even she admits it's worthless.

 

Of course she has turned it into a successful career -- she now runs a drug and alcohol rehab center. Not the most glamorous work and it isn't the most exceptional of pay, but it's much higher than average. She's just proof that hard working people will be successful and lazy people won't.

 

I'll see that degree in psychology, and raise you a degree in Astronomy. "Oh, you have a degree in astronomy? Can you do my horoscope for me? I'm a Pisces." Beyond useless.

[TakeYouToTasker]

Yeah... the problem is that all degrees are not equal; and if we're being completely honest most folks who go to liberal arts schools aren't getting the backgrounds necessary in math and science to go out into the world and get the sorts of jobs that the emerging technologies economy needs. Almost none of our kids are. Those courses tend to be hard, and our kids don't do hard and challenging. They do basket weaving and binge drinking. And most of the kids in college don't even deserve to be there. Most never deserved to graduate high school.

 

To segue into a teachers' need to go to college, I don't disagree; however the way things are done today, it would almost be better if they didn't go. A degree in education is a worthless degree. Teachers need to have degrees in the subjects that they teach; with a pay hierarchy dictated by the actual value of that degree in the real world.

[birdog1960]

uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees?

[John Adams]

uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees?

 

You keep picking the outliers and ignore the vast majority. You see that right? A poly sci major (I can't believe that of all the degrees, you picked that one) is not qualified to run the fry basket at McDonalds. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were exceptionally smart, incredibly motivated people who went to the best schools in the country--of course they did OK. Romney is from one of the richest and most connected families on the planet--his college degree is not why he succeeded. But your average middle class family poly sci major from Canisius? Niagara? Bona? The degree is not taking them far.

Edited July 8, 2013 by John Adams

[Jauronimo]

http://online.wsj.co...8.html?mod=e2fb

 

As lawmakers in Washington remain at loggerheads over the student-debt crisis, Oregon's legislature is moving ahead with a plan to enable students to attend state schools with no money down. In return, under one proposal, the students would agree to pay into a special fund 3% of their salaries annually for 24 years.

 

The plan, called "Pay it Forward, Pay it Back," would create a fund that students would draw from and eventually pay into—potentially bypassing traditional education lenders and the interest rates they charge. The state would likely borrow for the fund's seed money, which could exceed $9 billion, but the program's designers intend it to become self-sustaining.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Not sure this will work but at least some ideas are being floated. Generally speaking, finding a good fix to this issue is important.

The problem has never been access to cheap debt. This plan does nothing to curb the most glaring problem of for-profit education costs and irresponsible lending. Late night TV has convinced millions of low-income families that a degree from ITT Tech will instantly guarantee them a $50,000 salary, an SUV and either a mountain bike or a kayak. False.

 

The rate of loan default at for profit education institutions paints a pretty clear picture. If the government were to stop backing loans to for-profit schools that would slow the bleeding.

 

The cost of private education is also rising out of control, but the default figures are still relatively mild compared to for-profit as mom and dad are footing the bill for most students at private schools. Market forces should counteract the automatic 5% annual tuition increases. Community colleges and state schools remain viable substitutes and structural employment shortages in the skilled trades may lure prospective college students.

 

The cultural premium on a college education is the biggest obstacle to sensible education costs. Its better to have a BS and wait tables at AppleBee's than work with your hands for twice the pay for now. How long can that trend persist?

[TakeYouToTasker]

uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees?

For every Romney, Bush, Clinton, and Obama there are 40,000 baristas who can't pay for their college loan; because they either weren't connected or didn't have the necessary intellegence, work ethic, and drive to get ahead with those degrees. Because that's the thing: those degrees, while possibly representing a better rounded education, don't require any degree of expertise in math and the sciences which high paying tech jobs require.

[GG]

uh huh, these folks all received BA's from schools with strong liberal arts traditions: mitt romney (english), gw bush (history), barack obama (poli sci), hillary clinton (poli sci) and there's plenty more examples at the top of many fields other than govt...ya think they all wasted their time pusuing those degrees?

 

Why do you continue to put up posts that are easy to smack around? In addition to the beatings administered by others, do we also need to point out the statistical irrelevancy of someone getting a liberal arts degree from an Ivy League school in 1960-1975 to someone getting that liberal arts degree from an average school in 2013, and coming out with a lot more debt and more uncertain job prospects?

[Just Jack]

Just saw this today, it's a click through site, so if you want to read more about their choices....

 

8 College Degrees with the Worst Return on Investment

http://www.salary.co..._source=taboola

 

8. Sociology

7. Fine Arts

6. Education

5. Religious Studies/Theology

4. Hospitality/Tourism

3. Nutrition

2. Psychology

1. Communications

 

And then today I see this article...

 

Majors that are Good Bets for Finding a Job

 

5 listed and it includes, similar to the one above...

Elementary Education

Communications

Psychology

[Jauronimo]

And then today I see this article...

 

Majors that are Good Bets for Finding a Job

 

5 listed and it includes, similar to the one above...

Elementary Education

Communications

Psychology

Finding a job and ROI are two very different concepts.

[Just Jack]

Finding a job and ROI are two very different concepts.

 

Oh I understand that, but just find it funny that it looks like conflicting info.

[Jauronimo]

Oh I understand that, but just find it funny that it looks like conflicting info.

Psych and communications are pretty broad and can land someone an entry level spot in just about any large company. I know people working in finance who majored in Spanish, history and all sorts of other liberal arts degrees. A degree is really just an indicator that someone is motivated, can learn and is willing to work.

[birdog1960]

Why do you continue to put up posts that are easy to smack around? In addition to the beatings administered by others, do we also need to point out the statistical irrelevancy of someone getting a liberal arts degree from an Ivy League school in 1960-1975 to someone getting that liberal arts degree from an average school in 2013, and coming out with a lot more debt and more uncertain job prospects?

it's not that they're easy to slap around, it's that they're so counterintuitive to most of the mindsets here that they feel compelled to attempt to quell them. there are plenty of recent humanities and social science grads who have succeeded financially and professionally. many went to top schools but i didn't realize that there was a stipulation placed on which schools the students attended attached to the assertion that nonscience majors are wasting their time and money. some are, some aren't. i contend that much has to do with their innate ability and drive. the solution here is more likely tightening admission policies (and perhaps not considering schools with poor placement records- not that i like roi calculation in education but they exist for universities, too) than limiting majors. i contend that you're concentrating on the wrong problem.

[John Adams]

it's not that they're easy to slap around, it's that they're so counterintuitive to most of the mindsets here that they feel compelled to attempt to quell them. there are plenty of recent humanities and social science grads who have succeeded financially and professionally. many went to top schools but i didn't realize that there was a stipulation placed on which schools the students attended attached to the assertion that nonscience majors are wasting their time and money. some are, some aren't. i contend that much has to do with their innate ability and drive. the solution here is more likely tightening admission policies (and perhaps not considering schools with poor placement records- not that i like roi calculation in education but they exist for universities, too) than limiting majors. i contend that you're concentrating on the wrong problem.

 

A 2.7 GPA Electrical Engineer from Penn State is getting a good job.

 

A 2.7 GPA Poly Sci major from Penn State is folding jeans at the Gap.

[GG]

it's not that they're easy to slap around, it's that they're so counterintuitive to most of the mindsets here that they feel compelled to attempt to quell them. there are plenty of recent humanities and social science grads who have succeeded financially and professionally. many went to top schools but i didn't realize that there was a stipulation placed on which schools the students attended attached to the assertion that nonscience majors are wasting their time and money. some are, some aren't. i contend that much has to do with their innate ability and drive. the solution here is more likely tightening admission policies (and perhaps not considering schools with poor placement records- not that i like roi calculation in education but they exist for universities, too) than limiting majors. i contend that you're concentrating on the wrong problem.

 

Yeah, like it's in the middling schools' best interest to tighten their admission policies. Do you process your thoughts before you submit them to the Intertubes?

[birdog1960]

Yeah, like it's in the middling schools' best interest to tighten their admission policies. Do you process your thoughts before you submit them to the Intertubes?

didn't say it was in their best interests but maybe it's in society's. someone suggested cutting off loans for certain majors. wouldn't it make more sense to cut it off to underperforming schools? is that idea any more likely to meet opposition than the former? from some estimates, over 50% of americans have attended college. by necessity, this must include some average or below students. cut off loans to schols that accept such students and you have a ready and effective solution. and a college degree means something again...

[KD in CA]

didn't say it was in their best interests but maybe it's in society's. someone suggested cutting off loans for certain majors. wouldn't it make more sense to cut it off to underperforming schools? is that idea any more likely to meet opposition than the former? from some estimates, over 50% of americans have attended college. by necessity, this must include some average or below students. cut off loans to schols that accept such students and you have a ready and effective solution. and a college degree means something again...

 

So your solution is to educate fewer people?

[unbillievable]

So your solution is to educate fewer people?

The way things are going, we're basically extending the public school system another 4yrs; and we all know how that system works.

His opinion is that we need to improve schools by kicking out the idiots, instead of letting the Jeantel's stave off the real world a few more years at taxpayer expense.

[GG]

didn't say it was in their best interests but maybe it's in society's. someone suggested cutting off loans for certain majors. wouldn't it make more sense to cut it off to underperforming schools? is that idea any more likely to meet opposition than the former? from some estimates, over 50% of americans have attended college. by necessity, this must include some average or below students. cut off loans to schols that accept such students and you have a ready and effective solution. and a college degree means something again...

 

And who is going to be the grand arbiter of who gets the funding? Funny, your proposal sounds eerily similar to the great hope that ACA is...

 

How many times does it need to be explained that central control and price controls always lead to the exact opposite of what they're intended to do. A big part of the reason why education is a mess and will continue to be a mess is the implicit federal subsidy of student loans. If the feds are going to distort a market, they might as well be equal opportunists and throw more cash at the for-profit schools like Phoenix U, etc. At least they won't be subsidizing a $200K college degree to nowhere, but a $50K degree to nowhere.

[Jauronimo]

And who is going to be the grand arbiter of who gets the funding? Funny, your proposal sounds eerily similar to the great hope that ACA is...

 

How many times does it need to be explained that central control and price controls always lead to the exact opposite of what they're intended to do. A big part of the reason why education is a mess and will continue to be a mess is the implicit federal subsidy of student loans. If the feds are going to distort a market, they might as well be equal opportunists and throw more cash at the for-profit schools like Phoenix U, etc. At least they won't be subsidizing a $200K college degree to nowhere, but a $50K degree to nowhere.

Problem is the for-profit degree to nowhere is resulting in the greatest incidence of defaulted student loans.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57585366/student-loan-defaults-rising-despite-a-way-out/

[GG]

Problem is the for-profit degree to nowhere is resulting in the greatest incidence of defaulted student loans.

 

http://www.cbsnews.c...pite-a-way-out/

 

That is correct, and a big part is how the federal loan guarantees distort the market and give traditional colleges an opening to raise tuition at multiples of inflation increases. Here's a Bloomberg contributor's take.

[KD in CA]

The way things are going, we're basically extending the public school system another 4yrs; and we all know how that system works.

His opinion is that we need to improve schools by kicking out the idiots, instead of letting the Jeantel's stave off the real world a few more years at taxpayer expense.

 

Which would be great if Jeantel wouldn't become an even bigger burden on the taxpayer once kicked out on her fat ass. But until our society stops rewarding people for being useless, that's not a realistic outcome.

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

Vassar College Women's Studies Program:

 

http://catalogue.vassar.edu/academic-information/departments-and-programs/wmst/

 

Includes such courses as:

 

Gender, Social Problems and Social Change

Issues in Feminism: Bodies and Texts

Women in Greek and Roman History and Myth

Queering the Archive

Gender and Islam

Topics in the Construction of Gender

Bio-Politics of Breast Cancer

Sex & Reproduction in 19th Century United States

Feminism, Knowledge, Praxis

How Queer is That?

 

[Just Jack]

Vassar College Women's Studies Program:

 

http://catalogue.vas...-programs/wmst/

 

Includes such courses as:

...

How Queer is That?

 

 

Sounds like a game show.

[DC Tom]

Women in Greek and Roman History and Myth

 

In truth, that sounds like a not-entirely-useless class. If it were taken as part of a real course of study in, say, history or classic literature.

 

Vassar's a SERIOUSLY kooky place, though.

[Chef Jim]

In truth, that sounds like a not-entirely-useless class. If it were taken as part of a real course of study in, say, history or classic literature.

 

Vassar's a SERIOUSLY kooky place, though.

 

It wasn't kooky when I was at the CIA as a 19 year old. Great place to hang out.

[Nanker]

Vassar girls say "yes" to Harvard men who say "no", was a famous quip during the VietNam war era.

[DC Tom]

It wasn't kooky when I was at the CIA as a 19 year old. Great place to hang out.

 

You weren't there when they took over the main administration building to protest Moynihan's atrocious record on civil rights, were you?

[Chef Jim]

You weren't there when they took over the main administration building to protest Moynihan's atrocious record on civil rights, were you?

 

I just looked that up and saw that happened in 1990. I'm an old fart remember. I was LONG gone by then.

[Fezmid]

Vassar College Women's Studies Program:

 

http://catalogue.vas...-programs/wmst/

 

Includes such courses as:

 

Gender, Social Problems and Social Change

Issues in Feminism: Bodies and Texts

Women in Greek and Roman History and Myth

Queering the Archive

Gender and Islam

Topics in the Construction of Gender

Bio-Politics of Breast Cancer

Sex & Reproduction in 19th Century United States

Feminism, Knowledge, Praxis

How Queer is That?

 

If we're talking about weird class titles, two of the courses I took at the University of Minnesota (and I'm not making this up)

 

* History of High Tech Weapons (History department)

* Killing (sociology department)

 

Almost didn't get my first job out of college because some people in the company were concerned about these classes on my transcript.

 

I wanted to take a class called "The Color Red" -- but couldn't fit it in my schedule.

[Koko78]

Gender, Social Problems and Social Change

Issues in Feminism: Bodies and Texts

Bio-Politics of Breast Cancer

 

These are the classes I would take. I believe they would be the most likely classes for the slutty feminist liberal idiots to congregate. You know, the ones who would !@#$ anyone in the name of 'girl power'.

 

How Queer is That?

 

I'll wait for the home edition of that game.

[DC Tom]

These are the classes I would take. I believe they would be the most likely classes for the slutty feminist liberal idiots to congregate. You know, the ones who would !@#$ anyone in the name of 'girl power'.

 

You clearly know nothing about the types of feminists who take those classes. If they did !@#$ you, they'd cry "rape" the next morning, to demonstrate that you don't control their bodies. Seen it happen.

[Koko78]

You clearly know nothing about the types of feminists who take those classes. If they did !@#$ you, they'd cry "rape" the next morning, to demonstrate that you don't control their bodies. Seen it happen.

 

Crap, didn't think that one through...

[Just Jack]

Crap, didn't think that one through...

 

Just get them to sign this....

 

http://www.loveologyuniversity.com/FCKeditor/editor/filemanager/browser/default/connectors/aspx/FckUploadedImages/Image/The%20University/cms/Sexual-Consent-Form.pdf