O line concerns?

[thewildrabbit]

How many NFL teams, honestly, are able to pick up a consistent 1-2 yards rushing in situations best characterized as "we're going to run, you know we're going to run, now stop us?"

 

I'll put that number at one or two, tops (MIN and HOU come to mind), but I think the RB is primarily the reason. I am open to arguments otherwise, so convince me.

 

Suffice it to say, I believe that claiming your OL is weak because you can't just "line 'em up" and get 2 yards is unrealistic.

I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. I'm only replying to give my thoughts on the subject.

 

When you look at the size and weight of the Buffalo Bills O line players Glenn 6'5" 343, Urbik 6'5'' 324, Hairston 6'6'' 330, Wood 6'4'' 304, Pears 6'8'' 305, and Levitre 6'2'' 306 was the runt of the litter. You would think that the line has more then enough size and girth to move the LoS 2-3 feet to make a first down against any opposing team. To me, Its a matter of will, determination and coaching.

 

it is my belief that those line players should have been coached up to make a 3rd and short by rushing, they weren't. Instead Gailey chose to mostly throw in short yardage situations. He chose to install a short, quick passing scheme to help make things easier for his line.

 

Like I've said before I'm old school, and the very first thing that line should be able to do is power block to make 2-3 yards, and get those first downs by running. Its not just the Texans & Vikings. The 49ers can do it, the Ravens can do it, Seattle can do it, among others.

 

Almost every NFL team has an "elephant offense", which is what they utilize on goal line situations when they need a TD within the 5 yard line or closer. A closed formation set with 2-3 TE's. The Ravens used to use tackles to replace their TE's in these situations.

 

To me, its very troubling to have the 6th best rushing offense in the NFL in 2012 and yet the line can't make a first down on 3rd and short by running from a closed formation. The spread offense along with Spiller's elusiveness was the reason for the good rushing stats. But those stats don't equate to wins if you can't control the LoS and the clock. capiche?

[eball]

I don't feel the need to convince you of anything. I'm only replying to give my thoughts on the subject.

 

When you look at the size and weight of the Buffalo Bills O line players Glenn 6'5" 343, Urbik 6'5'' 324, Hairston 6'6'' 330, Wood 6'4'' 304, Pears 6'8'' 305, and Levitre 6'2'' 306 was the runt of the litter. You would think that the line has more then enough size and girth to move the LoS 2-3 feet to make a first down against any opposing team. To me, Its a matter of will, determination and coaching.

 

it is my belief that those line players should have been coached up to make a 3rd and short by rushing, they weren't. Instead Gailey chose to mostly throw in short yardage situations. He chose to install a short, quick passing scheme to help make things easier for his line.

 

Like I've said before I'm old school, and the very first thing that line should be able to do is power block to make 2-3 yards, and get those first downs by running. Its not just the Texans & Vikings. The 49ers can do it, the Ravens can do it, Seattle can do it, among others.

 

Almost every NFL team has an "elephant offense", which is what they utilize on goal line situations when they need a TD within the 5 yard line or closer. A closed formation set with 2-3 TE's. The Ravens used to use tackles to replace their TE's in these situations.

 

To me, its very troubling to have the 6th best rushing offense in the NFL in 2012 and yet the line can't make a first down on 3rd and short by running from a closed formation. The spread offense along with Spiller's elusiveness was the reason for the good rushing stats. But those stats don't equate to wins if you can't control the LoS and the clock. capiche?

 

You're terribly condescending, so I'm not going to waste my time continuing the discussion other than to say I think you're over-simplifying things, and over-stating that certain teams can just pick up 2-3 yards at will. If it were that easy nobody would ever fail to convert a 3rd-and-short.

[thewildrabbit]

In true form, you continue to see only what you choose to see and ignore the rest.

 

Guess that's why we always see things differently...I'm willing to look at all the information, not just one small piece that conveniently fits my crusade.

 

Good work proving my point

Yea, we do see things differently! Deal with it ...

[Chandler#81]

 

 

You're terribly condescending, so I'm not going to waste my time continuing the discussion other than to say I think you're over-simplifying things, and over-stating that certain teams can just pick up 2-3 yards at will. If it were that easy nobody would ever fail to convert a 3rd-and-short.

 

3rd & 3 is the toughest situation in football and a QB's nightmare. -Bart Starr

 

Silly Bart, all you had to do was ask Fearthelosing..

[thewildrabbit]

You're terribly condescending, so I'm not going to waste my time continuing the discussion other than to say I think you're over-simplifying things, and over-stating that certain teams can just pick up 2-3 yards at will. If it were that easy nobody would ever fail to convert a 3rd-and-short.

Forgive me if I come across as condescending, it wasn't my intent.

 

Good teams can make those 2-3 yards, its how they win games. The bad teams can't make those yards and generally lose.

 

 

 

in 2009 I watched the Baltimore Ravens defeat the Patriots in New England during a wildcard playoff game. The 2nd year QB went 4 for 10 for 34 yards and one INT in a 33-14 win.

 

The reason the Ravens won was because of their running attack 52 attempts 234 yards and 4 TD's. They utilized their elephant offensive almost the entire game. They had 3-4 offensive tackles on that line almost every play. The Ravens gave the Buffalo Bills a perfect blueprint to beat the Patriots...nobody at OBD noticed tho.

[NewEra]

Forgive me if I come across as condescending, it wasn't my intent.

 

Good teams can make those 2-3 yards, its how they win games. The bad teams can't make those yards and generally lose.

 

 

 

in 2009 I watched the Baltimore Ravens defeat the Patriots in New England during a wildcard playoff game. The 2nd year QB went 4 for 10 for 34 yards and one INT in a 33-14 win.

 

The reason the Ravens won was because of their running attack 52 attempts 234 yards and 4 TD's. They utilized their elephant offensive almost the entire game. They had 3-4 offensive tackles on that line almost every play. The Ravens gave the Buffalo Bills a perfect blueprint to beat the Patriots...nobody at OBD noticed tho.

 

And which teams have replicated what the ravens did to them in 2009, 4 years ago? That was part the perfect blueprint to defeat that patriots team 4 years ago. Good coaches adapt. Belicheck isn't a good coach. He's great. He adapts.

[thebandit27]

Like I've said before I'm old school, and the very first thing that line should be able to do is power block to make 2-3 yards, and get those first downs by running. Its not just the Texans & Vikings. The 49ers can do it, the Ravens can do it, Seattle can do it, among others.

 

 

It may surprise you to find out that you are wrong.

 

This is one group of stats that even you can't discount (I think, although I may be giving you too much credit; time--and your much-anticipated response--will tell)...check out the "Power Success" of the bolded teams:

 

http://www.footballo...rs.com/stats/ol

 

Defined as: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks.

 

Houston - 18th

Minnesota - 30th

SF - 12th

Bal - 14th

Seattle - 4th (hey, you got one right!)

 

But hey, the "good teams that make those 2-3 yards" and win games like Carolina (1st in Power Success) and New Orleans (3rd) must LOVE fans like you!

 

No bones about it: you're flat-out wrong; the hard numbers don't lie.

Edited June 4, 2013 by thebandit27

[dave mcbride]

Serious question -- I don't have the time to go researching, but are there any actual statistics of Fitz's average snap-to-throw time? And more importantly, how it compares across the league? I've heard a lot of "Fitz masked OL deficiencies with his quick decisions and throws" but I'm skeptical.

Ask and ye shall be answered:

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/pff-signature-stats/

 

2012 leaders: When throwing in less than 2.6 seconds, Aaron Rodgers led the league with a 115.1 QB rating; in over 2.6 seconds, Peyton Manning’s 113.0 was tops. Andy Dalton and Ryan Fitzpatrick were quickest to get the pass away (2.40 seconds average for both), Ben Roethlisberger saw the least amount of time before taking a sack (2.43 seconds average), and Matt Schaub is quickest to decide to scramble (3.85 seconds average).

[thebandit27]

Ask and ye shall be answered:

 

https://www.profootb...ignature-stats/

 

2012 leaders: When throwing in less than 2.6 seconds, Aaron Rodgers led the league with a 115.1 QB rating; in over 2.6 seconds, Peyton Manning’s 113.0 was tops. Andy Dalton and Ryan Fitzpatrick were quickest to get the pass away (2.40 seconds average for both), Ben Roethlisberger saw the least amount of time before taking a sack (2.43 seconds average), and Matt Schaub is quickest to decide to scramble (3.85 seconds average).

 

Also interesting from that article:

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick has the biggest (passer rating) drop off (39.6 points) when he has a longer time to throw

[thewildrabbit]

And which teams have replicated what the ravens did to them in 2009, 4 years ago? That was part the perfect blueprint to defeat that patriots team 4 years ago. Good coaches adapt. Belicheck isn't a good coach. He's great. He adapts.

The Ravens didn't just win by running as they have also have a top defense. The point was the Ravens didn't need top QB play in that game and they found another way to dominate it, as they did it with both defense and running. The defense ranked #3 in both yards, pts in 2009

 

The same game plan isn't going to work every game after game. Yea Bilichick has proven he adapts better then most. Just look at the 4-1-6 defense they won SB 25 with, but his teams don't always win the SB every year.

 

Edit: my bad, "In Super Bowl XXV, Belichick came up with an unorthodox but extremely effective plan to handle the Bills' no-huddle offense. The Giants primarily used two alignments -- one featuring five defensive backs and three linebackers, the other featuring six defensive backs and two linebackers. In both, they only had two defensive linemen because it allowed them to drop as many as nine defenders into coverage and left little room for Kelly to throw. Their defenders also made a point of being especially physical with Buffalo's receivers, hitting them as hard as possible as soon as they made a catch."

 

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story/09000d5d80631278/article/parcells-1990-coaching-staff-was-ultimate-super-group

 

Instead of building a power running team like the Ravens have to compete against the Patriots. The Buffalo Bills try and build a high power offensive passing game with a lame backup QB as the starter. That make sense to you?

Edited June 4, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[thebandit27]

The Ravens didn't just win by running as they have also have a top defense. The point was the Ravens didn't need top QB play in that game and they found another way to dominate it, as they did it with both defense and running. The defense ranked #3 in both yards, pts in 2009

 

The same game plan isn't going to work every game after game. Yea Bilichick has proven he adapts better then most. Just look at the 4-1-6 defense they won SB 25 with, but his teams don't always win the SB every year.

 

Instead of building a power running team like the Ravens have to compete against the Patriots. The try and build a power offensive passing game with a lame backup QB as the starter. That make sense to you?

 

Good grief man, are you ever accurate about anything football-related? It's well-documented that the Giants ran a 2-4-5 alignment (2 down linemen) in Superbowl XXV:

 

http://fifthdown.blo...iants-vs-bills/

 

To better match up against Buffalo’s 3 wide receiver sets, the Giants used only two down linemen, Erik Howard and Leonard Marshall, and extra defensive backs in different versions of the nickel defense. They opened the game with Reyna Thompson as the slot corner and strong safety Greg Jackson down in the box. Later, and throughout almost all of the second half, Gary Reasons replaced either Jackson as the fourth linebacker, or Thompson, with Jackson then moving out over the slot receiver. The Giants moved defenders around to give Kelly different looks.

 

This is becoming comical.

Edited June 4, 2013 by thebandit27

[BillsVet]

I've gotta think an nfl head coach that played offensive line will not tolerate in any way shape or form a sub-par offensive line.

 

Levitre and Rinehart will be missed, but Urbik, Wood, Glenn are a solid core, Hairston and Pears were adequate at LT and Zerbie Sanders is still a big TBD with potential. Between Brown and Young they should be able to get something working at guard.

 

Not a prowbowl compliment yet, but I cannot imagine Marrone won't make it a priority to have solid Oline play.

 

Jim McNally used to coach the Bills OL and was handed very little to work with. Not surprisingly, the OL struggled particularly running the ball in short yardage. What should concern people is the team doesn't use high resources on their OL, instead focusing on players from the waiver wire, practice squads, or late round draft picks to round out their OL. Meanwhile, several teams are drafting mobile athletic types who can move, not the space eater win in a phone booth type preferred by Nix.

 

At this point no one knows who'll start at LG, a position that demands outstanding agility. Urbik's penciled in at RG, the RT position is a question mark, Glenn has 1 year under his belt, and Wood seems solid. The depth behind them isn't strong either, marked by plenty of UDFA's and street FA types. The line is not in any way shape or form a strong point despite who the coaches are.

[mEAz]

The Ravens didn't just win by running as they have also have a top defense. The point was the Ravens didn't need top QB play in that game and they found another way to dominate it, as they did it with both defense and running. The defense ranked #3 in both yards, pts in 2009

 

The same game plan isn't going to work every game after game. Yea Bilichick has proven he adapts better then most. Just look at the 4-1-6 defense they won SB 25 with, but his teams don't always win the SB every year.

 

Instead of building a power running team like the Ravens have to compete against the Patriots. The Buffalo Bills try and build a high power offensive passing game with a lame backup QB as the starter. That make sense to you?

 

if you believe that you don't need top QB play to succeed in today's NFL, then I'm afraid the game has passed you by. And while there is some merit to the point that you need to be creative in game plan, you can't use a statistical outlier to prove a point.

 

Maybe a little off topic, but after reading this post it occurred to me that this shows an example of how there is a divide among fans in the traditional theories off old school football vs the new wave of stats based theories. I find the discussions fascinating.

 

To return back to the OP's question, there def are some questions heading into training camp about the O-Line. At this point though, I wouldn't be overly concerned about how that unit will perform. A LG can easily be replaced, and OL can be one of the biggest benefactors of 'coaching up'.

[eball]

Ask and ye shall be answered:

 

https://www.profootb...ignature-stats/

 

2012 leaders: When throwing in less than 2.6 seconds, Aaron Rodgers led the league with a 115.1 QB rating; in over 2.6 seconds, Peyton Manning’s 113.0 was tops. Andy Dalton and Ryan Fitzpatrick were quickest to get the pass away (2.40 seconds average for both), Ben Roethlisberger saw the least amount of time before taking a sack (2.43 seconds average), and Matt Schaub is quickest to decide to scramble (3.85 seconds average).

 

Thanks Dave. For whatever reason I can't get that link to load on my computer; what was the overall average in the NFL?

[thebandit27]

Thanks Dave. For whatever reason I can't get that link to load on my computer; what was the overall average in the NFL?

 

PFF's website has been screwy for a week or so now...not sure why

[eball]

Jim McNally used to coach the Bills OL and was handed very little to work with. Not surprisingly, the OL struggled particularly running the ball in short yardage. What should concern people is the team doesn't use high resources on their OL, instead focusing on players from the waiver wire, practice squads, or late round draft picks to round out their OL. Meanwhile, several teams are drafting mobile athletic types who can move, not the space eater win in a phone booth type preferred by Nix.

 

At this point no one knows who'll start at LG, a position that demands outstanding agility. Urbik's penciled in at RG, the RT position is a question mark, Glenn has 1 year under his belt, and Wood seems solid. The depth behind them isn't strong either, marked by plenty of UDFA's and street FA types. The line is not in any way shape or form a strong point despite who the coaches are.

 

There are 160 starting offensive linemen in the NFL. How many were acquired with "high resources?" What is the definition of "high resources" anyway? Top three rounds of the draft? If that's the criteria, then 80% of the Bills' starters were acquired in that manner (Glenn/Wood/Urbik/Hairston).

 

Was the line a strong point "in any way shape or form" last season? If it was, then Levitre and the backup services of Rheinholdsgebotenstein are the only subtractions.

 

How many backup linemen across the league are not "UDFA's and street free agent types?"

 

I don't know the answer to these questions -- just posing them as a counterpoint to your definitive statements.

Edited June 4, 2013 by eball

[thewildrabbit]

if you believe that you don't need top QB play to succeed in today's NFL, then I'm afraid the game has passed you by. And while there is some merit to the point that you need to be creative in game plan, you can't use a statistical outlier to prove a point.

 

Maybe a little off topic, but after reading this post it occurred to me that this shows an example of how there is a divide among fans in the traditional theories off old school football vs the new wave of stats based theories. I find the discussions fascinating.

 

To return back to the OP's question, there def are some questions heading into training camp about the O-Line. At this point though, I wouldn't be overly concerned about how that unit will perform. A LG can easily be replaced, and OL can be one of the biggest benefactors of 'coaching up'.

Where did I say that? The Ravens just won the SB because QB Joe Flacco pretty much played lights out thru the playoffs, and SB.

 

I was merely pointing out one particular game that stood out to me with one team absolutely dominating the other with the running game. The QB had a horrid game and it didn't matter.

 

 

The Bills lost one of their top O linemen in LG Andy Levitre and he was the ONLY player not to miss time due to injuries the last 4 years. I don't see how a player like that can "easily be replaced".

Edited June 4, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[mEAz]

Where did I say that? The Ravens just won the SB because QB Joe Flacco pretty played lights out thru the playoffs, and SB.

 

I was merely pointing out one particular game that stood out to me with one team absolutely dominating the other with the running game. The QB had a horrid game and it didn't matter.

 

 

The Bills lost one of their top O linemen in LG Andy Levitre and he was the ONLY player not to miss time due to injuries the last 4 years. I don't see how a player like that can "easily be replaced".

 

I did say "IF', because I did not see you state that....and i'm not implying that Andy was a bad or even avg player, but what I am saying is that it is easier to find a good replacement at G than say a T, or obviously a QB.

 

BTW, according to some metrics at PFF (don't have time to find link at the moment), Levitre was a very good pass blocker and slightly above avg run blocker.

[thewildrabbit]

Jim McNally used to coach the Bills OL and was handed very little to work with. Not surprisingly, the OL struggled particularly running the ball in short yardage. What should concern people is the team doesn't use high resources on their OL, instead focusing on players from the waiver wire, practice squads, or late round draft picks to round out their OL. Meanwhile, several teams are drafting mobile athletic types who can move, not the space eater win in a phone booth type preferred by Nix.

 

At this point no one knows who'll start at LG, a position that demands outstanding agility. Urbik's penciled in at RG, the RT position is a question mark, Glenn has 1 year under his belt, and Wood seems solid. The depth behind them isn't strong either, marked by plenty of UDFA's and street FA types. The line is not in any way shape or form a strong point despite who the coaches are.

Hey, i agree

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Regardless, as I've said repeatedly, I can't find a way to focus on the minor deficiencies of the OL when there are so many other unproven areas.

THIS.

 

In 2012 the O-line was arguably the best unit on the entire team. QB play was inadequate. Stevie was very good but other WR play was awful, Spiller was excellent but Jackson and Choice were awful, so skill positions as a whole were decent but needed improvement. D-line was inadequate, LBs were awful, DBs were half-decent.

 

Quibble with the above if you want but the point is it was a far higher priority for the Bills this offseason to 1a) find a damn quarterback already and 1b) do what was needed to field a competent defense, and 2) improve the WR position. Addressing any problems the OL has was correctly put off until next year.

 

Hopefully Marrone can work some magic and keep the OL playing decently. If they're not good enough improvements will be made next year. Without a QB or a DEFENSE we had little choice but to do it this way.

Edited June 4, 2013 by J-Gun Boone

[BillsVet]

There are 160 starting offensive linemen in the NFL. How many were acquired with "high resources?" What is the definition of "high resources" anyway? Top three rounds of the draft? If that's the criteria, then 80% of the Bills' starters were acquired in that manner (Glenn/Wood/Urbik/Hairston).

 

Was the line a strong point "in any way shape or form" last season? If it was, then Levitre and the backup services of Rheinholdsgebotenstein are the only subtractions.

 

How many backup linemen across the league are not "UDFA's and street free agent types?"

 

I don't know the answer to these questions -- just posing them as a counterpoint to your definitive statements.

 

Take the last three (EDIT: 1st-2nd) rounds of the NFL draft. In 2013, 10 OL were taken in the first 2 rounds. In 2012, 12 were selected in that same timeframe. 13 taken in 2011. By my count, that's 35 dudes out of 192 selections, and they're not all left tackles. Lot more interior OL at the top of draftboards.

 

The league trend is away from 330+ pounders and more to nimble guys who can pass block to support the more pass happy offenses. Teams just aren't taking maulers anymore. In theory, that's 35 new starters from 3 drafts, or about 1/4th of the opening day starters.

Edited June 4, 2013 by BillsVet

[dave mcbride]

Thanks Dave. For whatever reason I can't get that link to load on my computer; what was the overall average in the NFL?

That's from the summary. If you want the details, you need to subscribe. I don't, as it so happens ...

[thewildrabbit]

THIS.

 

In 2012 the O-line was arguably the best unit on the entire team. QB play was inadequate. Stevie was very good but other WR play was awful, Spiller was excellent but Jackson and Choice were awful, so skill positions as a whole were decent but needed improvement. D-line was inadequate, LBs were awful, DBs were half-decent.

 

Quibble with the above if you want but the point is it was a far higher priority for the Bills this offseason to 1a) find a damn quarterback already and 1b) do what was needed to field a competent defense, and 2) improve the WR position. Addressing any problems the OL has was correctly put off until next year.

 

Hopefully Marrone can work some magic and keep the OL playing decently. If they're not good enough improvements will be made next year. Without a QB or a DEFENSE we had little choice but to do it this way.

I disagree...obviously. I think the RB's were the best unit on the team by far, and Spiller was the reason.

 

I guess you missed this,

"Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/

 

and this,

"Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/32-observations-week-17/

 

 

I do agree with the last sentence bolded.

[bigK14094]

I guess I am still wondering why, with the Bills not moving on Levetre, that Reinhart was not resinged. Reinhart start many games over two years, and did workman like job. Yet, little if any comment on this board about that loss. Another front office failing in my view. He only got a one year contract from San Diego, so he did not go to a top of the line contract. Why not keep him?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I disagree...obviously. I think the RB's were the best unit on the team by far, and Spiller was the reason.

 

I guess you missed this,

"Summary: The line got more praise than they deserved for the ridiculousness of C.J. Spiller and his ability to make a lot out of very little. They did, however, hold up well in pass protection, providing one less excuse for the play of Ryan Fitzpatrick."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/28/ranking-the-2012-offensive-lines/3/

 

and this,

"Buffalo Bills: Running back C.J. Spiller ended the year with an Elusive Rating of 94.6, which is the highest of any back in the past five years."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/01/02/32-observations-week-17/

 

 

I do agree with the last sentence bolded.

So the offensive line was the second best unit on the team, and my actual point still stands.

 

When 2012 season ended we were looking at an offensive line that was solid but unspectacular, a hopeless quarterback situation, and maybe the single worst defense in football. We also needed to add weapons to the passing game. Even while I agree with you there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about the OL, it's easy to see why OL was far from our top priority this offseason.

[eball]

I guess I am still wondering why, with the Bills not moving on Levetre, that Reinhart was not resinged. Reinhart start many games over two years, and did workman like job. Yet, little if any comment on this board about that loss. Another front office failing in my view. He only got a one year contract from San Diego, so he did not go to a top of the line contract. Why not keep him?

 

So in other words, you are wondering why the Bills didn't re-sign a journeyman G who was in such demand he was only able to muster a one-year deal on the free agent market?

 

Yes, they certainly seem to have missed the boat on keeping this highly sought after prize.

[Cheddar's Dad]

So in other words, you are wondering why the Bills didn't re-sign a journeyman G who was in such demand he was only able to muster a one-year deal on the free agent market?

 

Yes, they certainly seem to have missed the boat on keeping this highly sought after prize.

 

The point is this; Levitre and Reinhart are gone and no replacements have been brought in. Add to that the difficulties that Glenn seems to be having with his pass blocking this year and you may, with an open mind, begin to understand why I started this discussion.

 

As to your comment about Reinhart being given only a one year deal; how many free agents have gained more than one year this year? One year contracts seem to be the norm and should, in no way, indicate the value or worth of a player. There are free agent O-linemen still sitting out there waiting for the phone to ring. Reinhart signed a contract before the others. So, was he "sought after"? I'd say yes.

[biglukes]

 

 

The point is this; Levitre and Reinhart are gone and no replacements have been brought in. Add to that the difficulties that Glenn seems to be having with his pass blocking this year and you may, with an open mind, begin to understand why I started this discussion.

 

As to your comment about Reinhart being given only a one year deal; how many free agents have gained more than one year this year? One year contracts seem to be the norm and should, in no way, indicate the value or worth of a player. There are free agent O-linemen still sitting out there waiting for the phone to ring. Reinhart signed a contract before the others. So, was he "sought after"? I'd say yes.

Why did a replacement HAVE to be brought in from outside the organization? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that Colin Brown or someone already on the team can fill the spot just fine? They like the group they have and could still add to it with one of the two guys who visited today.

 

Reinhardt is not still out there on the market because he's decent and cheap.

Edited June 4, 2013 by biglukes

[thewildrabbit]

So the offensive line was the second best unit on the team, and my actual point still stands.

 

When 2012 season ended we were looking at an offensive line that was solid but unspectacular, a hopeless quarterback situation, and maybe the single worst defense in football. We also needed to add weapons to the passing game. Even while I agree with you there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about the OL, it's easy to see why OL was far from our top priority this offseason.

While I concede that the O line play was somewhat solid, but unspectacular. Still, way to many injuries for me, Eric Wood can't keep ending the season on IR. A hopeless QB situation because the HC made a back up QB the focal point of his offense instead of his best weapons in his RB's.

 

It may be easy for you, but Its not easy for me to see why the OL was far from a top priority, as my main concern is in building a top O line first thing. I know I think differently from the majority of the posters here. I was hoping the Bills would replace Levite in the draft since they let him walk.

 

We will just have to wait until the season starts to see if the line can give the QB the time needed to make those deep throws to the new speedy WR's, and I'm hoping they do. Heck of a lot easier to pass block for 2.4 seconds then it is for 5 seconds on deep drop backs.

[BillsVet]

Why did a replacement HAVE to be brought in from outside the organization? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility that Colin Brown or someone already on the team can fill the spot just fine? They like the group they have and could still add to it with one of the two guys who visited today.

 

Reinhardt is not still out there on the market because he's decent and cheap.

 

Because Colin Brown has 12 career GP and 2 starts since being drafted in 2009. He's on his 4th team in 5 seasons, including his time in the UFL.

 

If the Bills were confident in guys like Brown, they wouldn't be kicking the tires on two guys like those brought in today.

[3rdand12]

So in other words, you are wondering why the Bills didn't re-sign a journeyman G who was in such demand he was only able to muster a one-year deal on the free agent market?

 

Yes, they certainly seem to have missed the boat on keeping this highly sought after prize.

I think big K is saying something i am attuned to. Did we need to let Rinehart go ? That move mystified me no end.

And irks me even more when i hear the cap space just gained 7 million this week. Bills left themselves thin in my opinion.

Chad was decent player .

One of the sage gentlemen here mentioned I paraphrase to my own end of course ..that an Oline is the sum of it's parts including depth and how coaches compensate for weaknesses and strengths through good coaching. Gailey and coach D did an nice job masking weaknesses lots of em. Lot's and lots of em. regardless of Chan's failings on offense they sucked. The whole offense was sooo coached around that Gailey and company had no idea which way was up by the 9th game of last season. What with no defense to speak of .

 

I would now like to mention that I have serious concerns about the offensive line and it's depth .

My ONLY hope is that Marrone can get it sorted out by getting the "right " players in place. Not the best or highly valued.

But fellows that have consistency , balance and continuity over statistical blue ribbons .

I see a rough year ahead , but with Tons of excitement . We have no shortage of offensive weapons all of a sudden .

Go bills

[26CornerBlitz]

In a related matter:

@JamesWalkerESPN: Some #Dolphins fans are asking about the o-line in OTAs. The answer is it's hard to gauge in shorts and little contact.

 

[thewildrabbit]

It may surprise you to find out that you are wrong.

 

This is one group of stats that even you can't discount (I think, although I may be giving you too much credit; time--and your much-anticipated response--will tell)...check out the "Power Success" of the bolded teams:

 

http://www.footballo...rs.com/stats/ol

 

Defined as: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks.

 

Houston - 18th

Minnesota - 30th

SF - 12th

Bal - 14th

Seattle - 4th (hey, you got one right!)

 

But hey, the "good teams that make those 2-3 yards" and win games like Carolina (1st in Power Success) and New Orleans (3rd) must LOVE fans like you!

 

No bones about it: you're flat-out wrong; the hard numbers don't lie.

I delayed this because I don't have all day to debate you over and over.

 

 

 

That stat for power success also includes QB's, in case you missed it, a big reason why Carolina is #1. QB Cam Newton had more rushing yards then their best RB. The Saints are a passing team, and happen to be 25th in rushing last season. Could it be that their opponents expected a pass instead of a run as to why they did so well on 3rd and short? All you prove when you keep throwing out stat after stat is that they don't always tell the entire story.

 

Top rushing teams in the NFL last season #1 Washington, in the playoffs. #2 Minnesota, in the playoffs. #3 Seattle, in the playoffs. #4 San Francisco, in the playoffs. Three of those 4 teams also had running QB's that enhanced their rushing stats

 

The Buffalo Bills were the 6th best rushing team in the NFL last season and yet couldn't control the game or the clock when they needed to by rushing or passing. Which In my view is a big reason why they went 6-10. BTW, They were also ranked 26th in power success.

 

Those teams mentioned, the Texans, Ravens, 49ers, Vikings, Seahawks are all strong running teams, all made the playoffs and all can control the LoS and clock when they need. Despite their supposed lack of "power success"

Edited June 4, 2013 by FeartheLosing

[thewildrabbit]

I think big K is saying something i am attuned to. Did we need to let Rinehart go ? That move mystified me no end.

And irks me even more when i hear the cap space just gained 7 million this week. Bills left themselves thin in my opinion.

Chad was decent player .

One of the sage gentlemen here mentioned I paraphrase to my own end of course ..that an Oline is the sum of it's parts including depth and how coaches compensate for weaknesses and strengths through good coaching. Gailey and coach D did an nice job masking weaknesses lots of em. Lot's and lots of em. regardless of Chan's failings on offense they sucked. The whole offense was sooo coached around that Gailey and company had no idea which way was up by the 9th game of last season. What with no defense to speak of .

 

I would now like to mention that I have serious concerns about the offensive line and it's depth .

My ONLY hope is that Marrone can get it sorted out by getting the "right " players in place. Not the best or highly valued.

But fellows that have consistency , balance and continuity over statistical blue ribbons .

I see a rough year ahead , but with Tons of excitement . We have no shortage of offensive weapons all of a sudden .

Go bills

Hey, another fellow I agree with.

 

Regarding Chad Rinehart, the Bills did the same sorta thing when they cut center/guard Geoff Hangartner before the 2011 season started. He went back to Carolina and started all 16 games for them at RG. The Bills were riddled with line injuries all 2011 and really really could have used him when Eric Wood went down in week 9.

 

All we can do is hope this move doesn't come back to bite them.

[3rdand12]

Hey, another fellow I agree with.

 

Regarding Chad Rinehart, the Bills did the same sorta thing when they cut center/guard Geoff Hangartner before the 2011 season started. He went back to Carolina and started all 16 games for them at RG. The Bills were riddled with line injuries all 2011 and really really could have used him when Eric Wood went down in week 9.

 

All we can do is hope this move doesn't come back to bite them.

good point recalling Geoff . I expected to keep him around .

Well it' Coach Marrones baby now lets see what Whaley and company find for him

[thebandit27]

I delayed this because I don't have all day to debate you over and over.

 

 

 

That stat for power success also includes QB's, in case you missed it, a big reason why Carolina is #1. QB Cam Newton had more rushing yards then their best RB. The Saints are a passing team, and happen to be 25th in rushing last season. Could it be that their opponents expected a pass instead of a run as to why they did so well on 3rd and short? All you prove when you keep throwing out stat after stat is that they don't always tell the entire story.

 

Top rushing teams in the NFL last season #1 Washington, in the playoffs. #2 Minnesota, in the playoffs. #3 Seattle, in the playoffs. #4 San Francisco, in the playoffs. Three of those 4 teams also had running QB's that enhanced their rushing stats

 

The Buffalo Bills were the 6th best rushing team in the NFL last season and yet couldn't control the game or the clock when they needed to by rushing or passing. Which In my view is a big reason why they went 6-10. BTW, They were also ranked 26th in power success.

 

Those teams mentioned, the Texans, Ravens, 49ers, Vikings, Seahawks are all strong running teams, all made the playoffs and all can control the LoS and clock when they need. Despite their supposed lack of "power success"

 

So after claiming that the Bills OL isn't good solely upon their lack of being able to pound the call in Power situations like Houston, Minnesota, etc, and being proven wrong, you're now going to shift your claim that the stat--which ONLY APPLIES TO 3RD AND 4TH DOWNS OF 1-2YDS AND GOAL LINE PLAYS OF 1-2 YARDS--is skewed by the QB's rushing totals?

 

This really is a joke, isn't it? You're putting me on...you must be.

 

The Bills inability to control the clock with their running game was why they went 6-10?

 

Not the complete lack of an NFL QB?

 

Not the fact that they had 1 NFL caliber WR?

 

Not the horrendous defense?

 

Not the brutal play calling?

 

The OL?

 

Ok man, I'll leave you to your delusion.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

We will just have to wait until the season starts to see if the line can give the QB the time needed to make those deep throws to the new speedy WR's, and I'm hoping they do. Heck of a lot easier to pass block for 2.4 seconds then it is for 5 seconds on deep drop backs.

 

More importantly we'll have to wait and see what we have at quarterback. We were going nowhere with a Ryan Fitzpatrick or Kevin Kolb, time to throw or not.

 

The downfield passing game is only going to be one element of our offense. At Syracuse, they used mostly a quick passing WCO offense. You might've seen the quotes from Hackett awhile back about how he wants to run the ball a ton. Additionally we have a quarterback who can make plays with his feet.

 

If Marrone and Hackett can hack it, they'll be able to use the quick passing game, running game and the QB's athleticism to slow the pass rush in order to attack downfield.

[NewEra]

Our interior Oline depth absolutely sucks. If wood goes out again, it'll be a floodgate. As many have said, the main reason our Oline was ranked so high was because of 2 reasons. Gaileys offense that was designed to get rid of the ball quickly allowed our pass protection ranking to be overinflated. Running the ball, Cj spiller did some nasty things out there. If we were returning the same guys as last season, I'd be ok with that. But we lost our best lineman as well as our backup interior lineman. They haven't been filled. Our line is worse than last years. Debate all you want, that Oline wasn't the biggest "priority" this year. It will be one of the biggest property's next season. I promise you that.

[eball]

In a related matter:

@JamesWalkerESPN: Some #Dolphins fans are asking about the o-line in OTAs. The answer is it's hard to gauge in shorts and little contact.

 

 

This may be the only time I give credence to Walker, but he's absolutely right. Judging OL play in this scenario is ridiculous -- at least for uneducated fans (of which I am admittedly one).

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

It will be one of the biggest property's next season. I promise you that.

I completely agree, and it should be.

 

If there's a quarterback I want in the draft I'm not passing on him for anything. Nobody wins anything in this league without strong QB play.

 

Then if I had the worst defense in football, that would be the next thing to think about.

 

I am concerned about the offensive line. Though I'm not at all surprised they didn't take an OL the first three rounds, I did not expect the Bills to go the entire draft without selecting one. I was surprised they let Chas Rhinegold walk and even more surprised at how they didn't seem to pursue Brandon Moore very much.

 

None of that changes the reality that our QB situation and our defense were far worse off than our offensive line. It also doesn't change the reality that we have a head coach who has done some excellent work in the past with NFL offensive lines. If we have to pick a spot to wait for next year, it makes sense to me to pick a spot that we're confident will be well-coached and that actually performed fairly well last year.

 

It is regrettable that Levitre is gone and no brand name replacement has been brought in. We're taking a gamble that someone will step up and Marrone can get these guys where they need to be. With the amount of holes we had, we simply had to take that gamble somewhere. We're doing the same thing at CB, and maybe not by coincidence, that's the other position that we can be pretty confident will be well-coached.

Edited June 5, 2013 by J-Gun Boone