C.Biscuit97 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 If we're playing the 20-20 hindsight game (don't mind playing that at all), I'll take either the 49'er's draft (Aldon Smith and Kapernick) or the Texans' draft (J.J. Watt and Brooks Reed) as well as the Bengals. Hated, hated, hated the Aaron Williams pick. Would have liked to have seen Akeem Ayers playing LB for us. Yeah, hindsight would be amazing. Dareus was the MVP of the national championship game. Smith had 6 sacks his last year and Watt had 11.5 for his whole career. I was 100% on board with drafting Kaepernick because I thought he was Cam Newton lte and Gailey would work well with him. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattsox Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 QB- Andy dalton HB1- CJ spiller HB2-Fred Jackson Wr1- A.J. green Wr2- Stevie Johnson Slot- David nelson Offensive line that we now have. our defense minus Marcell and and Aaron. Right now not to big of a hit. I still think Marcell will be a great player but Aaron is a bust. We most likely would have stayed a 3-4 defense becasue we would not have had those 4 dominant D-linemen we still would have signed Mario Williams. The D-line would still have been good. and the whole defense would have had a year experience in the 3-4 and all of these mental errors might not have been happening. The LBs would have stayed where they were and not have to learn new technique, lets remember this is the pros you don't just change position and expect that you will be just as good in the other position. -Barnett would not have had to make the move to the outside we were counting on him being the same player we got in 2011. -Bryan Scott would have been more suited to play LB in the 3-4 as well. -the scheme has killed our defense this year.. We now know andy dalton was a good pick now. He was not a sure thing coming out but he was a winner and had a good head on his shoulders. I think chan could have made him better than he is in cincy. he would also have a more complete offense around him. AJ green was a sure thing I don't want to here hind sight is 2020 AJ green was a beast you can go back and watch his College tape and see he was going to be a star he was making those catches only special players make and is a great athlete. he has been doing it his whole life, even in highschool This Our offense would be top in the league. knowing the bills we would not have resigned stevie though. I can't see a way that chan messes that up. Everyone would have loved Buddy if he pulled the Trigger on Green and Dalton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Max Anderson Fan Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass on cobble rocks now would they? IF, IF, IF..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 If the Bills had drafted them...............Today we would continue to cry B*tch and moan about how we could have drafted 2 different players (Maybe even Dareus and Williams) and they would have been such a greater pick then what Buffalo did. It doesn't matter who the Bills pick, if they aren't Pro Bowlers right away, everyone here will just be talking about how we could have had 'Player X' at that spot and how the players a bust and another mistake by the front office and more proof Ralphs the anit-christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Max Anderson Fan Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 If the Bills had drafted them...............Today we would continue to cry B*tch and moan about how we could have drafted 2 different players (Maybe even Dareus and Williams) and they would have been such a greater pick then what Buffalo did. It doesn't matter who the Bills pick, if they aren't Pro Bowlers right away, everyone here will just be talking about how we could have had 'Player X' at that spot and how the players a bust and another mistake by the front office and more proof Ralphs the anit-christ :thumbsup: Couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smears Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 If we had drafted them, the Bills would find a way to screw it up. Or Chan would ruin it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todzilla Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) I liked Green pre draft but was totally on board with Dareus. The Bills had ignored the interior of the line for far too long and another skill player would have made many on this board lose their mind. There are plenty of WR's that have looked like can't miss prospects that have missed badly (ask the Lions). I still think Dareus will justify his draft position in the long run. He's been much better the past two games. It appears he may be putting the tragedy of his brothers death behind him and getting back to form. Taking Williams in the 2nd round however is a totally different story. Having Dalton or Kap right now would put the franchise in a much better place. My only hope for Williams at this point is that they convert him to safety during the offseason and he is more successful there. Edited November 28, 2012 by todzilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Dalton would still be "inactive" learning the playbook and A J Green would be the 3rd wideout.... Worse.............AJ Green would be stuck behind Easley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If we're playing the 20-20 hindsight game (don't mind playing that at all), I'll take either the 49'er's draft (Aldon Smith and Kapernick) or the Texans' draft (J.J. Watt and Brooks Reed) as well as the Bengals. Hated, hated, hated the Aaron Williams pick. Would have liked to have seen Akeem Ayers playing LB for us. It's looking more and more possible that the Williams Pick will be the one that stings most in the long run...Which is surprising seeing as though that was the 2nd Rounder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 It's looking more and more possible that the Williams Pick will be the one that stings most in the long run...Which is surprising seeing as though that was the 2nd Rounder... Troupe too the year before. Taken a spot ahead of gronk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Troupe too the year before. Taken a spot ahead of gronk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffBill Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If the Bills had drafted them...............Today we would continue to cry B*tch and moan about how we could have drafted 2 different players (Maybe even Dareus and Williams) and they would have been such a greater pick then what Buffalo did. It doesn't matter who the Bills pick, if they aren't Pro Bowlers right away, everyone here will just be talking about how we could have had 'Player X' at that spot and how the players a bust and another mistake by the front office and more proof Ralphs the anit-christ The way it has turned out so far, I don't think anyone out of a coma would be bithing if we didn't draft Aaron Williams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 (edited) The problem with picking Dareus over Green is the fact that "franchise" WRs like Green don't come along very often, create matchup disasters for the other team, and are the most valuable players in the NFL besides franchise QBs. Much as Franchise QBs make a team immeasurably better, a true stud WR makes an entire offense better in multiple ways, even if he doesn't have a great QB delivering him the ball. GMs who understand the modern NFL get this and draft accordingly. (See Atlanta, trading up for Julio Jones). GMs who don't, end up picking "the highest ranked player on our board", and pay the price. (see Cleveland selecting Trent Richardson). Bottom line: even a great D-lineman, which Dareus definitely is not at this point in his career, is less valuable to a team than a truly great WR, which Green has already proven himself to be. Edited November 29, 2012 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If the Bills had drafted them...............Today we would continue to cry B*tch and moan about how we could have drafted 2 different players (Maybe even Dareus and Williams) and they would have been such a greater pick then what Buffalo did. It doesn't matter who the Bills pick, if they aren't Pro Bowlers right away, everyone here will just be talking about how we could have had 'Player X' at that spot and how the players a bust and another mistake by the front office and more proof Ralphs the anit-christ Seriously? Do you live in some sort of alternate universe where over-generalization, over-exaggeration, and the lack of ability to discern between fanaticism and good discussion are acceptable norms? If so, I'm beginning to understand your recent Posts a lot more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Seriously? Do you live in some sort of alternate universe where over-generalization, over-exaggeration, and the lack of ability to discern between fanaticism and good discussion are acceptable norms? If so, I'm beginning to understand your recent Posts a lot more... Well, just look at him in his avatar, there's a good reason why he's driving that bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Well, just look at him in his avatar, there's a good reason why he's driving that bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todzilla Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The problem with picking Dareus over Green is the fact that "franchise" WRs like Green don't come along very often, create matchup disasters for the other team, and are the most valuable players in the NFL besides franchise QBs. Much as Franchise QBs make a team immeasurably better, a true stud WR makes an entire offense better in multiple ways, even if he doesn't have a great QB delivering him the ball. GMs who understand the modern NFL get this and draft accordingly. (See Atlanta, trading up for Julio Jones). GMs who don't, end up picking "the highest ranked player on our board", and pay the price. (see Cleveland selecting Trent Richardson). Bottom line: even a great D-lineman, which Dareus definitely is not at this point in his career, is less valuable to a team than a truly great WR, which Green has already proven himself to be. Trent Richardson has performed quite well on a crappy team, should finish with close to 1500 yards from scrimmage and 10 tds. The problem with calling Green a franchise WR, which he obviously is, but for every Green, Megatron, Andre Johnson, there is a Braylon Edwards, Charles Rogers, and Roy Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koufax Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Yes, I would have been quite unhappy if we passed on Marcel to pick Green at the time, and I don't think it would have been the best decision. Obviously right now Green is looking like the better player, but I don't think he clearly was at that time, or the better fit. Dalton or Kaepernick over Williams I was hoping for on draft day, and I think would have been a really good idea. Here is a list of QBs taken within 15 picks of our pick in recent years, so guys we could have had if we wanted, since the draft where we last picked a top 3 round QB (Trent Edwards) 2012 Gilmore #10 - Weeden #22 2012 Glenn #41 - Osweiler #57 2012 Graham #69 - Russel Wilson #75 2011 Dareus #3 - Locker, Gabbert, Ponder 2011 Williams #34 - Dalton #35, Kaepernick #36 2011 Shepperd #68, Mallet #74 2010 Troup #41, Claussen #48 2009 Maybin #11, Freeman #17 2009 Byrd #42, Pat White #44 2008 McKelvin #11, Flacco #18 2008 Hardy #41, Brohm #56, Henne #57 2007 Lynch #12, Quinn #22 2007 Poz #34, Kolb #36 (Beck/Stanton) Russel Wilson over Graham, Dalton/Kaepernick over Williams, Freeman over Maybin, Flacco over McKelvin, Kolb over Poz are all moves that today would make sense. Of those I think that Wilson and Kolb would be using hindsight unfairly (see Brady, Tom), and similarly Freeman over Orakpo (leave Maybin out of it) would have been a head scratcher. I also think that Flacco was scouted too much as a second round project without mobility (read Mallet) to be realistically picked at #11 out of Delaware. So that leaves in the last six years, only one head scratching pick, and that is Aaron Williams, ahead of two QBs who I think all of us liked more than Williams on draft day, and each of whom is currently the starter for a playoff contender. I put this pick currently with Ngata and Orakpo as ones that seemed dumb on the day of the draft and have only grown stinkier, but I don't put AJ Green/Dareus in the same category. Marcel was graded as the best player in that draft by many many people, and he should be such a dominate force if given the right coaching. Not to mention losing his brother had an impact no matter how little time he missed. If you think Gailey is inept and in over his head...what about Dave Wannstedt? Now think about how much ole Dave has screwed one of the NFL's best D lines into the ground this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 The one arguement you can make for not drafting Green is Detroit. They picked the number one wide receiver 2 or three times and it never paid off. I am not saying Green is not a franchise game changing WR, i am a UGA fan. What i am saying is until you fix you rlines of scrimage and QB, wr's are a luxury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Well, just look at him in his avatar, there's a good reason why he's driving that bus. Just trying to fit in with everyone else around here, the short bus is overflowing here, we might have to upgrade to one of those bigger busses Seriously? Do you live in some sort of alternate universe where over-generalization, over-exaggeration, and the lack of ability to discern between fanaticism and good discussion are acceptable norms? If so, I'm beginning to understand your recent Posts a lot more... Hindsight makes every decision made much easier to makeUp until that draft, the majority of people here were talking about how taking Dareus is the only choice because you have to draft linemen and build from the lines out, WRs and QBs are just luxury picks that this team can't afford to make now. Can you honestly say that at the time of the draft you had expected Dalton would have been a game 1 starter and lead his team to the playoffs? If so, theres 31 jobs available in the NFL you'd qualify for because 31 other GMs in the NFL passed on him, and if it wasn't for Carson palmer sitting out, theres a pretty good chance we may not have seen Dalton play much yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 If we had drafted them, the Bills would find a way to screw it up. Or Jauron would ruin it. Same crap, different thread. Just be glad the above isn't true. I'd prefer Gailey, thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Same crap, different thread. Just be glad the above isn't true. I'd prefer Gailey, thank you very much. Give it a couple seasons and a team Jauron is part of making the playoffs and fans will be crying for him to come back here...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 (edited) If I had bet all my money on the last 10 SB's knowing the results, I'd be rich! "AJ green was a sure thing" Haha, of course. In hindsight he was a sure thing. Dareus was supposed to be a sure thing too, and may still be. Edited November 29, 2012 by Turbosrrgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Just trying to fit in with everyone else around here, the short bus is overflowing here, we might have to upgrade to one of those bigger busses Hindsight makes every decision made much easier to make Up until that draft, the majority of people here were talking about how taking Dareus is the only choice because you have to draft linemen and build from the lines out, WRs and QBs are just luxury picks that this team can't afford to make now. Can you honestly say that at the time of the draft you had expected Dalton would have been a game 1 starter and lead his team to the playoffs? If so, theres 31 jobs available in the NFL you'd qualify for because 31 other GMs in the NFL passed on him, and if it wasn't for Carson palmer sitting out, theres a pretty good chance we may not have seen Dalton play much yet. So exactly how do you judge a GM on whether or not he's done a good job? I'm guessing looking back at past Drafts and UFA moves is the way 99.9% of NFL Owners do it...Hindsight is 20/20...So what? It's Nix's job to have FORESIGHT...This way he does not have to get clobbered by hindsight and fired by Ralph...It's his job...We all get judged in hindsight on our decisions at work ..If I make a stupid decision...(which never happens btw... )...The Owner of My Company is going to want to know why I decided that way...And guess what he's going to say if I tell him..."Well Boss...Hindsight is 20/20..." And no question I was OK with the Dareus pick...Thrilled as a matter of fact...But that kind of makes my point...I'm not an NFL GM...And if I could not see that AJ Green, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, JJ Watt, and Aldon Smith were going to be better Pro's than Dareus that's OK...I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to make those decisions...Nix is...And he blew the Williams Pick WAY worse than the Dareus Pick because even most casual fans KNEW that Fitz was not a Franchise QB...And when you don't have a Franchise QB it damn well better be your 1st priority in the Draft to get one... And as for Andy Dalton...I game with a guy from Dallas that told me Dalton was going to be real good NFL QB when the Kid was a Jr...Believe me he reminds me of it on a weekly basis...So plenty of Folks knew...Just not Nix...Why? And even more importantly how in God's name could Nix and his Scouts think aaron Williams would be a better choice there for the future of this Franchise than Dalton or Kaepernick? Hindsight is s B word is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 So exactly how do you judge a GM on whether or not he's done a good job? I'm guessing looking back at past Drafts and UFA moves is the way 99.9% of NFL Owners do it...Hindsight is 20/20...So what? It's Nix's job to have FORESIGHT...This way he does not have to get clobbered by hindsight and fired by Ralph...It's his job...We all get judged in hindsight on our decisions at work ..If I make a stupid decision...(which never happens btw... )...The Owner of My Company is going to want to know why I decided that way...And guess what he's going to say if I tell him..."Well Boss...Hindsight is 20/20..." And no question I was OK with the Dareus pick...Thrilled as a matter of fact...But that kind of makes my point...I'm not an NFL GM...And if I could not see that AJ Green, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, JJ Watt, and Aldon Smith were going to be better Pro's than Dareus that's OK...I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to make those decisions...Nix is...And he blew the Williams Pick WAY worse than the Dareus Pick because even most casual fans KNEW that Fitz was not a Franchise QB...And when you don't have a Franchise QB it damn well better be your 1st priority in the Draft to get one... And as for Andy Dalton...I game with a guy from Dallas that told me Dalton was going to be real good NFL QB when the Kid was a Jr...Believe me he reminds me of it on a weekly basis...So plenty of Folks knew...Just not Nix...Why? And even more importantly how in God's name could Nix and his Scouts think aaron Williams would be a better choice there for the future of this Franchise than Dalton or Kaepernick? Hindsight is s B word is it not? Thank you! I'm so sick of the "hindsight is 20/20" mantra that so many people here relentlessly chant when anyone points out the obvious and indisputable incompetence of Buddy and Friends at OBD. It is their job to project the future, even though it's never a sure thing, and to do it better than their competitors do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) So exactly how do you judge a GM on whether or not he's done a good job? I'm guessing looking back at past Drafts and UFA moves is the way 99.9% of NFL Owners do it...Hindsight is 20/20...So what? It's Nix's job to have FORESIGHT...This way he does not have to get clobbered by hindsight and fired by Ralph...It's his job...We all get judged in hindsight on our decisions at work ..If I make a stupid decision...(which never happens btw... )...The Owner of My Company is going to want to know why I decided that way...And guess what he's going to say if I tell him..."Well Boss...Hindsight is 20/20..." And no question I was OK with the Dareus pick...Thrilled as a matter of fact...But that kind of makes my point...I'm not an NFL GM...And if I could not see that AJ Green, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, JJ Watt, and Aldon Smith were going to be better Pro's than Dareus that's OK...I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to make those decisions...Nix is...And he blew the Williams Pick WAY worse than the Dareus Pick because even most casual fans KNEW that Fitz was not a Franchise QB...And when you don't have a Franchise QB it damn well better be your 1st priority in the Draft to get one... And as for Andy Dalton...I game with a guy from Dallas that told me Dalton was going to be real good NFL QB when the Kid was a Jr...Believe me he reminds me of it on a weekly basis...So plenty of Folks knew...Just not Nix...Why? And even more importantly how in God's name could Nix and his Scouts think aaron Williams would be a better choice there for the future of this Franchise than Dalton or Kaepernick? Hindsight is s B word is it not? This is a common excuse for hindsight arguments. While it's possible hindsight does have some role in evaluating scouting departments and front offices, it certainly doesn't seem very useful. Looking back at past draft's IS a way to evaluate the FO, but there is a difference between making objective evaluations on the decisions that were made AT THE TIME, and using hindsight evaluation. It seems far more accurate and useful to me, to judge them a little more objectively. Judge them on the success of the players they DID take, not the players they COULD have taken (This is the difference between objective evaluation, and useless hindsight). Guys like Maybin, Troup, Aaron Williams have not worked out so well. The FO should be judged on the success or the failure of the guys they took, not the guys they COULD have taken instead , based on information learned AFTER they were drafted. Using hindsight (judgment based on information gained after the decision) is not very productive or useful in evaluation. There could also be information that we aren't privy to that could be used in evaluation. For instance, if the scouting department had given Dalton and Kaepernick a very low grade BEFORE the draft, they could be evaluated on that. That is NOT hindsight. It's so easy to say "this was right, that was wrong" based on information you learned AFTER the draft, but the excuse that it should be ok because you are "evaluating the FO" doesn't make any sense to me. Edited November 30, 2012 by Turbosrrgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Thank you! I'm so sick of the "hindsight is 20/20" mantra that so many people here relentlessly chant when anyone points out the obvious and indisputable incompetence of Buddy and Friends at OBD. It is their job to project the future, even though it's never a sure thing, and to do it better than their competitors do it. I guess that's true but everything shouldn't be in a vacuum. Gronk missed his last season in college with a back injury. Tough to draft a guy like that and his value is inflated by playing with Tom Brady. JJ Watt and Clay Matthews were hardly special pass rushers in college, I believe 11.5 and 8.5 sacks for their entire careers. They both play in terrific defensive systems for pass rushers. The Bills have had a ton of misses, but so have other teams. The Pats probably haven't been that much better than us drafting in recent years. However when you have Brady, you are automatically a better GM. The Broncos GM became much better the second they got Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 This is a common excuse for hindsight arguments. While it's possible hindsight does have some role in evaluating scouting departments and front offices, it certainly doesn't seem very useful. Looking back at past draft's IS a way to evaluate the FO, but there is a difference between making objective evaluations on the decisions that were made AT THE TIME, and using hindsight evaluation. It seems far more accurate and useful to me, to judge them a little more objectively. Judge them on the success of the players they DID take, not the players they COULD have taken (This is the difference between objective evaluation, and useless hindsight). Guys like Maybin, Troup, Aaron Williams have not worked out so well. The FO should be judged on the success or the failure of the guys they took, not the guys they COULD have taken instead , based on information learned AFTER they were drafted. Using hindsight (judgment based on information gained after the decision) is not very productive or useful in evaluation. There could also be information that we aren't privy to that could be used in evaluation. For instance, if the scouting department had given Dalton and Kaepernick a very low grade BEFORE the draft, they could be evaluated on that. That is NOT hindsight. It's so easy to say "this was right, that was wrong" based on information you learned AFTER the draft, but the excuse that it should be ok because you are "evaluating the FO" doesn't make any sense to me. Actually, the evaluation of management should be based on whether or not they obtained the objectives of the business. I don't think anyone in Detroit cares if the GM drafts a dozen RBs in a row and they all go to the Pro Bowl if the sales of inventory trend towards zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Actually, the evaluation of management should be based on whether or not they obtained the objectives of the business. I don't think anyone in Detroit cares if the GM drafts a dozen RBs in a row and they all go to the Pro Bowl if the sales of inventory trend towards zero. Absolutely, that's the end game. I was more answering the question of how do you evaluate success or lack thereof specifically when it comes to the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) This is a common excuse for hindsight arguments. While it's possible hindsight does have some role in evaluating scouting departments and front offices, it certainly doesn't seem very useful. Looking back at past draft's IS a way to evaluate the FO, but there is a difference between making objective evaluations on the decisions that were made AT THE TIME, and using hindsight evaluation. It seems far more accurate and useful to me, to judge them a little more objectively. Judge them on the success of the players they DID take, not the players they COULD have taken (This is the difference between objective evaluation, and useless hindsight). Guys like Maybin, Troup, Aaron Williams have not worked out so well. The FO should be judged on the success or the failure of the guys they took, not the guys they COULD have taken instead , based on information learned AFTER they were drafted. Using hindsight (judgment based on information gained after the decision) is not very productive or useful in evaluation. There could also be information that we aren't privy to that could be used in evaluation. For instance, if the scouting department had given Dalton and Kaepernick a very low grade BEFORE the draft, they could be evaluated on that. That is NOT hindsight. It's so easy to say "this was right, that was wrong" based on information you learned AFTER the draft, but the excuse that it should be ok because you are "evaluating the FO" doesn't make any sense to me. So you don't find it relevant, for example, that in selecting Maybin the FO passed on three other players at the same position who were drafted a few selections later and went on to almost immediate NFL stardom? You don't find it relevant that in drafting a second-team all-Sunbelt conference nose tackle, Buddy passed on a player who immediately became a huge impact player at a position of dire need for the Bills, and who happens to be from WNY? (And by the way, the Patriots apparently figured out that his back wasn't going to be an issue. Why couldn't the Bills have made the same assessment?) You don't find it relevant that in selecting a WR who was minimally productive at a non-major football program, Buddy passed on a potential QB of the future? Does it matter what round a player is selected in? Do you agree that Dareus would have a GREAT fourth round pick up, but as the third player picked in a draft full of pro bowlers, he is a bit of a disappointment? If the players who you could have selected are irrelevant, then it shouldn't matter at all what round a player was selected in, right? Edited November 30, 2012 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 So you don't find it relevant, for example, that in selecting Maybin the FO passed on three other players at the same position who were drafted a few selections later and went on to almost immediate NFL stardom? You don't find it relevant that in drafting a second-team all-Sunbelt conference nose tackle, Buddy passed on a player who immediately became a huge impact player at a position of dire need for the Bills, and who happens to be from WNY? (And by the way, the Patriots apparently figured out that his back wasn't going to be an issue. Why couldn't the Bills have made the same assessment?) You don't find it relevant that in selecting a WR who was minimally productive at a non-major football program, Buddy passed on a potential QB of the future? Does it matter what round a player is selected in? Do you agree that Dareus would have a GREAT fourth round pick up, but as the third player picked in a draft full of pro bowlers, he is a bit of a disappointment? If the players who you could have selected are irrelevant, then it shouldn't matter at all what round a player was selected in, right? Agreed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) This is a common excuse for hindsight arguments. While it's possible hindsight does have some role in evaluating scouting departments and front offices, it certainly doesn't seem very useful. Looking back at past draft's IS a way to evaluate the FO, but there is a difference between making objective evaluations on the decisions that were made AT THE TIME, and using hindsight evaluation. It seems far more accurate and useful to me, to judge them a little more objectively. Judge them on the success of the players they DID take, not the players they COULD have taken (This is the difference between objective evaluation, and useless hindsight). Guys like Maybin, Troup, Aaron Williams have not worked out so well. The FO should be judged on the success or the failure of the guys they took, not the guys they COULD have taken instead , based on information learned AFTER they were drafted. Using hindsight (judgment based on information gained after the decision) is not very productive or useful in evaluation. There could also be information that we aren't privy to that could be used in evaluation. For instance, if the scouting department had given Dalton and Kaepernick a very low grade BEFORE the draft, they could be evaluated on that. That is NOT hindsight. It's so easy to say "this was right, that was wrong" based on information you learned AFTER the draft, but the excuse that it should be ok because you are "evaluating the FO" doesn't make any sense to me. I hear what you're saying...I don't really agree...But I understand... Seeing as though we're really only talking about The Bills...IMHO Nix falls short no matter how you decide to evaluate the guy...The hindsight deal may very well be best judged as a combination of who they picked, and who they passed on...Again Nix falls terribly short under that microscope...It simply does not matter much how you look at it, you're not going to find a single NFL GM who would prefer to have Aaron Williams instead of Dalton or Kaepernick...Sure it's 20/20 hindsight...But it's not just who Nix passed, it's who he picked... To me at least, the lack of laser focus on improving the QB position is the biggest black mark on Nix record...Dalton, Kaepernick, and every other QB the Bills may have grabbed, could have become complete bombs in Buffalo...That's always a possibility...And sure IF that happened many fans would be well up in arms...But at the very least Nix could say, (in a politically correct way... ) right now, that the problems with Fitz were properly identified, and they used a premium pick at an attempt to find his replacement...He could at least say they tried... It's not just about the decision to go with Fitz...That's bad enough...But to expect that this Franchise can get by only bringing in Thigpen, Levi Brown, Tarvaris Jackson, and Vince Young to compete for the Starting job with Fitz??? Drafting basically NOTHING at QB over 3 entire Drafts knowing Ryan Fitzpatrick is your QB??? It's just unacceptable...It's unacceptable under any type of evaluation process IMHO...It's just a bad job by a 1st time GM who GREATLY underestimated the importance of the QB position, and greatly overestimated the abilities of the QB's he had on the Roster... Anyway...Sigh... Edited November 30, 2012 by KOKBILLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 JJ Watt and Clay Matthews were hardly special pass rushers in college, I believe 11.5 and 8.5 sacks for their entire careers. They both play in terrific defensive systems for pass rushers. I agree with a lot of what you say and even agree about Clay Matthews. The talk coming out was who was the good lb cushing, matthews, or mualaga (sp?). JJ Watt however is a different story. I know at 3 people would have gone insane but I remember watching a game against Ohio St. where he was moved all over the line and absolutely dominated. (tried to find the youtube clip and couldn't) I advocated trading down and grabbing him before the draft (although I was overjoyed with the Dareus pick). Watt was a known commodity and went #11 overall. He is a driving force behind that great Texans D but I will agree that there is much more talent surrounding him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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