Magox Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 That's not true. When he borrowed my !@#$ing hammer earlier, he never claimed to be investing in it. Although he did somehow claim that I claimed that loaning him the hammer gave me a 100% investment in his house. Still not sure how that worked... Im guessing you are done with doing work around the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Not only does it make no sense, but again his rant was totally unrelated to post he replied to. His replies seem to follow a predicatble pattern at this point. Backtrack, change the subject, and then claim that you've proven his point for him, while conveniently leaving out what exactly that point is. Somehow he jumped from all loans are risk free, to investment deserves principal and interest (as if investment were a loan) and reverts back to lending bears no risk. I've never encountered such a poor understanding of interest. How is ROI interest? He seems to draw no distinction between investment and lending/borrowing. Just a minor detail. I eagerly await MDP to explain more mathematical facts while he expands on his theory that probability, volatility, and the unknown, the basis of financial risk, are all dependent upon the size of the investment. Professor Dareus Power says investing $5 in stock B is inherently more risky than investing $5 million in stock B, because risk is relative to wealth. The more you know. I have to wonder....Who taught him that Bull shiit that he's spewin around here. !@#$in Wacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) I have to wonder....Who taught him that Bull shiit that he's spewin around here. !@#$in Wacky Given his views on fiat currency, my biggest question is why does he care? Since its all imaginary, what good is a more even distribution of fake money? If you're going to be batsh#t crazy, at least be consistent. Edited May 30, 2012 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Given his views on fiat currency, my biggest question is why does he care? Since its all imaginary, what good is a more even distribution of fake money? If you're going to be batsh#t crazy, at least be consistent. except thats not what i said. what an idiot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Not only does it make no sense, but again his rant was totally unrelated to post he replied to. His replies seem to follow a predicatble pattern at this point. Backtrack, change the subject, and then claim that you've proven his point for him, while conveniently leaving out what exactly that point is. Somehow he jumped from all loans are risk free, to investment deserves principal and interest (as if investment were a loan) and reverts back to lending bears no risk. I've never encountered such a poor understanding of interest. How is ROI interest? He seems to draw no distinction between investment and lending/borrowing. Just a minor detail. I eagerly await MDP to explain more mathematical facts while he expands on his theory that probability, volatility, and the unknown, the basis of financial risk, are all dependent upon the size of the investment. Professor Dareus Power says investing $5 in stock B is inherently more risky than investing $5 million in stock B, because risk is relative to wealth. The more you know. no retard, i said 5$ of risk for someone who makes 10$ is more of a risk than someone with 5 million. they have more resources, capital, and info. i never said all loans are risk free, i said some are. and some are less than others... and the amount of risk is independent of profits. the reason you get profits is because of intelligence, skill, labor, innovation, efficiency,wealth, environment, etc. not risk. the reason you win the horse race is because of calculation and a little luck, not because of a risk. people take all kinds of risks everyday, this doesnt create profit or say you have the right to profit. even when labor takes risk on, thats not why they get profits nor is it the reason they have a right to those profits, its because they workded for it! the reason you owe money to someone when they give you a loan is not because of risk, its because they worked for it... my complaint is that capital is not treated as a loan, when in principle its the same thing. you labor for money, and you labor, (in some cases), for capital. this creates indefinite interest, ie, unpaid labor... That's not true. When he borrowed my !@#$ing hammer earlier, he never claimed to be investing in it. Although he did somehow claim that I claimed that loaning him the hammer gave me a 100% investment in his house. Still not sure how that worked... because of surplus value, ie unpaid labor. its indefinite interest.... what an idiot... :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) Im guessing you are done with doing work around the house. I am never putting in a hardwood floor by myself again (solid red oak - 2 1/4 by 5/8 thick). Aside from doing about three thousand squat-thrusts over the weekend, my knees are shot to hell and gone from all the kneeling aligning boards. I'll hire someone and watch next time. Floor looks great, though. With hand-made thresholds and molding around the fireplace (mixed a custom stain to match the floor). I'm starting to realize that I'm pretty damn good at trim carpentry. Too bad Home Despot owns my damn house now, since I rented the floor nailer from them. no retard, i said 5$ of risk for someone who makes 10$ is more of a risk than someone with 5 million. they have more resources, capital, and info. i never said all loans are risk free, i said some are. and some are less than others... and the amount of risk is independent of profits. the reason you get profits is because of intelligence, skill, labor, innovation, efficiency,wealth, environment, etc. not risk. the reason you win the horse race is because of calculation and a little luck, not because of a risk. people take all kinds of risks everyday, this doesnt create profit or say you have the right to profit. even when labor takes risk on, thats not why they get profits nor is it the reason they have a right to those profits, its because they workded for it! the reason you owe money to someone when they give you a loan is not because of risk, its because they worked for it... my complaint is that capital is not treated as a loan, when in principle its the same thing. you labor for money, and you labor, (in some cases), for capital. this creates indefinite interest, ie, unpaid labor... because of surplus value, ie unpaid labor. its indefinite interest.... what an idiot... :wallbash: Unpaid labor is surplus value is indefinite interest? What does that even mean? I could write a computer program that would string random words together that would still make more sense than you do. Edited May 30, 2012 by DC Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 except thats not what i said. what an idiot... So I imagined this? btw, none of this brings up the point that most credit or loans are made up out of thin air and this? the loan from the bank- the real source is no risk. the money is made up. And plenty other such references which I don't care to dig up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Too bad Home Despot owns my damn house now, since I rented the floor nailer from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I am never putting in a hardwood floor by myself again (solid red oak - 2 1/4 by 5/8 thick). Aside from doing about three thousand squat-thrusts over the weekend, my knees are shot to hell and gone from all the kneeling aligning boards. I'll hire someone and watch next time. Floor looks great, though. With hand-made thresholds and molding around the fireplace (mixed a custom stain to match the floor). I'm starting to realize that I'm pretty damn good at trim carpentry. Too bad Home Despot owns my damn house now, since I rented the floor nailer from them. Unpaid labor is surplus value is indefinite interest? What does that even mean? I could write a computer program that would string random words together that would still make more sense than you do. when my surplus value produced surpasses capital and interest, i dont owe you any more money, otherwise, its unpaid labor. ie indefinite interest. so, ....... when you give me 100$ and charge me 110 for interest, once my loan is paid off, im done with you. raw materials are worth 100$. the market value through labor adds to this. this is what a wage is. so say the raw materials are worth, 100$, and the final end product is worth 200$. this means labor should get say 80$. minus 20 for new overhead cost. but this leaves the owner of capital with no profit on his original loan of 100$. this is where interest or profit comes in. so the owner only pays labor 40$. this is legit and fine, but cant go on forever, otherwise surplus value will overtake the original cost of capital. ie a reward for doing nothing. its indefinite interest if capital is not treated like regular loans. its exploitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 1. no retard, i said 5$ of risk for someone who makes 10$ is more of a risk than someone with 5 million. they have more resources, capital, and info. 2. i never said all loans are risk free, i said some are. and some are less than others... and the amount of risk is independent of profits. the reason you get profits is because of intelligence, skill, labor, innovation, efficiency,wealth, environment, etc. not risk. the reason you win the horse race is because of calculation and a little luck, not because of a risk. people take all kinds of risks everyday, this doesnt create profit or say you have the right to profit. even when labor takes risk on, thats not why they get profits nor is it the reason they have a right to those profits, its because they workded for it! 3. the reason you owe money to someone when they give you a loan is not because of risk, its because they worked for it... 4. my complaint is that capital is not treated as a loan, when in principle its the same thing. you labor for money, and you labor, (in some cases), for capital. this creates indefinite interest, ie, unpaid labor... 5. because of surplus value, ie unpaid labor. its indefinite interest.... 1. For the last time, the level of risk is completely independent of the size of the investment or the investor's relative wealth. Whether you have $1 billion in the bank or $100 in the bank, one share of stock A presents the same level of risk. ONLY your ability to accept risk, not to be confused with your willingness to accept risk, is affected by your wealth. By your logic, the weight of a 5lb box is relative to an individual's size and strength. 2. NO loans are risk free. The outcome does not change the uncertain nature of repayment of capital and interest. 3. So I pay the bank interest on my loan because they worked for the money they're lending? So my floating interest rate moves depending on how hard they worked, right? But why does my rate change if they've already performed the work? And what does a credit history have to do with lending? I guess people with poor credit must just seek out loans from lenders who worked extra hard for the money? That is the most profoundly ignorant statement you've made yet. Interest is a reflection of credit risk. Any statement to the contrary is entirely false. 4. There is no such thing as indefinite interest, only indefinite capital gains. Again, you blend investment concepts and principles with lending principles, one of the many sources of your tragic misunderstandings of our financial system. Investment and lending may be the same to you, but that's only because you're an idiot. 5. That is not a sentence and no meaning can be derived from the that collection of words. Hows the marginal productivity argument working out for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 So I imagined this? and this? And plenty other such references which I don't care to dig up? the fractional reserve system creates money out of thin air. its not from deposits... the fed is the same. only difference is a ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 i never said all loans are risk free, i said some are. and some are less than others... Give us an example of a risk free loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Give us an example of a risk free loan. A risk free loan, according to MDP, is when you loan me $1,000 for 5 years, and upon maturity, I have paid you back all principal and interest. Since you were paid in full, the loan was clearly risk free. And you now own my house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Give us an example of a risk free loan. Treasury bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 the fractional reserve system creates money out of thin air. its not from deposits... the fed is the same. only difference is a ratio. So that is what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barack Obama Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Give us an example of a risk free loan. Solyndra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Treasury bill. So there is no risk involved in a T-Bill? Solyndra You just read my mind Mr. President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) 1. For the last time, the level of risk is completely independent of the size of the investment or the investor's relative wealth. Whether you have $1 billion in the bank or $100 in the bank, one share of stock A presents the same level of risk. ONLY your ability to accept risk, not to be confused with your willingness to accept risk, is affected by your wealth. By your logic, the weight of a 5lb box is relative to an individual's size and strength. your ability to assume risk because you are wealthier does make it dependent. if person x has way less money than person y, than y can buy more raw material, hire smarter people, buy more property, get more advertisement, lowering the risk because of his/her wealth. in fact, x might not even take the risk because of y. e.g. joe blow shop vs walmart... 2. NO loans are risk free. The outcome does not change the uncertain nature of repayment of capital and interest. its risk free in that you can just print more money. i know its uncertain, thats not why its not risky. its not risky because you can just print new money... ie, it doesnt matter what the outcome is.... 3. So I pay the bank interest on my loan because they worked for the money they're lending? So my floating interest rate moves depending on how hard they worked, right? But why does my rate change if they've already performed the work? And what does a credit history have to do with lending? I guess people with poor credit must just seek out loans from lenders who worked extra hard for the money? That is the most profoundly ignorant statement you've made yet. Interest is a reflection of credit risk. Any statement to the contrary is entirely false. i agree, i never said that. this is why walmart will have a lower interest rate opening a bar than joe blow plummer opening a bar. so this contradicts your last statement that wealth plays no role in how much risk there is. credit history has to do with weighing the risk when you give someone a loan. the reason you do this is becasue your loan is of value to you. why? because you worked for it retard!!!!!!!!! :doh: 4. There is no such thing as indefinite interest, only indefinite capital gains. Again, you blend investment concepts and principles with lending principles, one of the many sources of your tragic misunderstandings of our financial system. Investment and lending may be the same to you, but that's only because you're an idiot. im saying they are the same. raw materials are worth money becaue of their market value, ie work. same with money. money exchanges the value of labor on a market. :doh: indefinite capital gains is indefinite interest. retard! work=object=object sold on market= money. 5. That is not a sentence and no meaning can be derived from the that collection of words. Hows the marginal productivity argument working out for you? its your theory dumbass, not mine. thats why i disagree with it... A risk free loan, according to MDP, is when you loan me $1,000 for 5 years, and upon maturity, I have paid you back all principal and interest. Since you were paid in full, the loan was clearly risk free. And you now own my house. no, thats not what i said. So that is what you said. this is why austrian economists like ron paul wanted all currency backed by gold or real assets on a market. no, this does not mean they are from austria... Edited May 30, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Solyndra I love this new Jay Carney clip below...what Hotair referred to as "51 agonizing seconds of Carney trying to explain on the fly why Solyndra going bust is a normal win-some-lose-some result when you’re investing in new ventures whereas Bain’s investments going bust is proof that Mitt Romney’s a vampire who enjoys seeing people laid off." http://youtu.be/nCMNcV8hZvw This guy makes me miss Robert Gibbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 when my surplus value produced surpasses capital and interest, i dont owe you any more money, otherwise, its unpaid labor. ie indefinite interest. so, ....... when you give me 100$ and charge me 110 for interest, once my loan is paid off, im done with you. raw materials are worth 100$. the market value through labor adds to this. this is what a wage is. so say the raw materials are worth, 100$, and the final end product is worth 200$. this means labor should get say 80$. minus 20 for new overhead cost. but this leaves the owner of capital with no profit on his original loan of 100$. this is where interest or profit comes in. so the owner only pays labor 40$. this is legit and fine, but cant go on forever, otherwise surplus value will overtake the original cost of capital. ie a reward for doing nothing. its indefinite interest if capital is not treated like regular loans. its exploitation. you call it capital gains, i call it indefinite interest. they are the same thing... its a free ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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