MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 (edited) Just to be clear, that means that the owner of the company gets one vote, as well? the workers are the owners. so yes, generally speaking. again, sometimes reps are needed to just make decisions. not every decision will be voted on. thats impossible for any structure or system, left or right. theres also a collective action problem... Edited May 26, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 What do you do for a living, to pay your bills etc.? i work a few hours part time helping out the political science and philosophy dept at my school. about 4-6 hrs a week,( sometimes less). my main job is a security/logistics manager. i just started that one. before that i worked under the table for my friend.(the recession hit hard). before that i was in the coast guard, and was sort of the cfo for my station. well, at least i did all the work for the cfo, ... but when i graduate in a year, my dream job is to start out in scouting for college football and eventually replace buddy nix!! thats my dream, either that, or be a political activist crushing people like dc tom. yes i work, yes i go to school, yes i work hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 the workers are the owners. so yes, generally speaking. again, sometimes reps are needed to just make decisions. not every decision will be voted on. thats impossible for any structure or system, left or right. theres also a collective action problem... So, the person who started the company and is the CEO gets one vote, do I have that right? Same as the guy on the line producing the widgets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 (edited) So, the person who started the company and is the CEO gets one vote, do I have that right? Same as the guy on the line producing the widgets? yes. they are both producing for the company. everyone plays a huge role. from the janitor to the cfo... you might see higher ups on workers councils making decisions that are not voted on. but they would be voted in. there are people way smarter that need to trusted in their decisions but still held accountable. like any job.... Edited May 26, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 yes. they are both producing for the company. everyone plays a huge role. from the janitor to the cfo... you might see higher ups on workers councils making decisions that are not voted on. but they would be voted in. there are people way smarter that need to trusted in their decisions but still held accountable. like any job.... Fair enough. Thank you for engaging. One more question: If employees can vote away any profit upside (to themselves) in a venture, why in the world would anyone ever start a company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 (edited) Fair enough. Thank you for engaging. One more question: If employees can vote away any profit upside (to themselves) in a venture, why in the world would anyone ever start a company? because you need to start a business to make money, and without certain skill you cant... there are market forces that will force them to pay. otherwise they will go out of business. ie a doctor, or lawyer. the janitor cant become a lawyer so he knows for his protection and protection of workers, he needs to pay his lawyer. generally speaking this would also take consensus. so why would a lawyer vote himself out of money? " i vote to get paid nothing"... this logically doesnt make sense. the 51 could vote the 49 dont get paid. and then nobody gets paid.... this wouldnt make sense in game theory. its doesnt really happen in govt either. for example, many repubs dont like romeny, but they wont vote for ron paul because he has no chance. democracy tends to gravitate towards reality, not extreme out of the box scenarios. what if 51% of the country wants to take over the other 49% and make them slaves? Edited May 26, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 (edited) Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Fair enough. Thank you for engaging. One more question: If employees can vote away any profit upside (to themselves) in a venture, why in the world would anyone ever start a company? this isnt some theoretical concept never tried. co-ops do it all the time. germany and europe do this as do other countries... germany is very strident about having worker councils and worker reps Edited May 26, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 this isnt some theoretical concept never tried. co-ops do it all the time. germany and europe do this as do other countries... germany is very strident about having worker councils and worker reps A couple of silly questions. I've skipped over a chunk of this so forgive me if i'm rehashing old material Our company makes widgets. Wacky wonderful widgets. Our factory runs the Widgetamatron 3000 The Widgetamatron 3000 just broke Who funds the repairs of the Widgetamatron 3000? The Workers Council or the greedy 1%'er? Our primary competitor has increased productivity. To increase productivity we will need to upgrade the Widgetamatron 3000 to a Widgetamatron 3000X Series. Does the Workers Council fund this or the greedy 1%'er? That damned competitor is up to no good again! They just cut prices. In order to compete we will need to cut ours. Does the Workers Council vote the workers a pay cut? The Workers Council has made a substantial contribution to The People's Party. This has had a very Stimulating effect on our available capital. We hire some new workers Does the 20something who never had a job but has a piece of paper with some fancy caligraphy on it have the same input as the guy who has been here for 30 years and knows the company inside and out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. That may be the first multi paragraph post on this thread that made any sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Floor jacks might work - depending on the circumstances. I had a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom done about 3 years ago. They had to pull up about 1/3 of the kitchen subflooring, shave a joist or two and shim up another one or two to get it near enough level for the wood flooring to be laid. Hard to say without actually looking at the particulars - current state and what kind of floor you're going to put down next. If you're going with tile - there are some pretty cool subflooring materials available. We went with 12 x 24 inch tiles in the 2nd upstairs bath that we're doing right now. Totally new underlayment material than what was used when we redid the master bath three years ago. With that stuff - a couple of coats will get you within a mm or so of level. Actually, just laying a floating solid hardwood floor (Elastilon underlay, 6 mil vapor barrier). And the floor's nearly flat, except for a low spot - a quarter-inch low, but over about a 15 square foot area. Just the right size to be a royal pain in the ass. Me being me (i.e. insane, and a purist)...I knocked down the high spots with a #7 jointer (yes, I planed the subfloor flat with a big-ass hand plane), and used self-leveling patch for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 My hat's off to you DCT. That's likely what I'd have done a couple of decades ago, were it me facing that conundrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 My hat's off to you DCT. That's likely what I'd have done a couple of decades ago, were it me facing that conundrum. And I even made the hand plane, so I still own my floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 (edited) A couple of silly questions. I've skipped over a chunk of this so forgive me if i'm rehashing old material Our company makes widgets. Wacky wonderful widgets. Our factory runs the Widgetamatron 3000 The Widgetamatron 3000 just broke Who funds the repairs of the Widgetamatron 3000? The Workers Council or the greedy 1%'er? Our primary competitor has increased productivity. To increase productivity we will need to upgrade the Widgetamatron 3000 to a Widgetamatron 3000X Series. Does the Workers Council fund this or the greedy 1%'er? That damned competitor is up to no good again! They just cut prices. In order to compete we will need to cut ours. Does the Workers Council vote the workers a pay cut? The Workers Council has made a substantial contribution to The People's Party. This has had a very Stimulating effect on our available capital. We hire some new workers Does the 20something who never had a job but has a piece of paper with some fancy caligraphy on it have the same input as the guy who has been here for 30 years and knows the company inside and out? any new money would come from business costs. thats what reps are for. if a new person is working, they are in the collective process, they should have a say. everything else is common sense. if cutbacks are needed, we would look at skill, and time put in, family situation, etc. duh... again, reps. A couple of silly questions. I've skipped over a chunk of this so forgive me if i'm rehashing old material Our company makes widgets. Wacky wonderful widgets. Our factory runs the Widgetamatron 3000 The Widgetamatron 3000 just broke Who funds the repairs of the Widgetamatron 3000? The Workers Council or the greedy 1%'er? Our primary competitor has increased productivity. To increase productivity we will need to upgrade the Widgetamatron 3000 to a Widgetamatron 3000X Series. Does the Workers Council fund this or the greedy 1%'er? That damned competitor is up to no good again! They just cut prices. In order to compete we will need to cut ours. Does the Workers Council vote the workers a pay cut? The Workers Council has made a substantial contribution to The People's Party. This has had a very Stimulating effect on our available capital. We hire some new workers Does the 20something who never had a job but has a piece of paper with some fancy caligraphy on it have the same input as the guy who has been here for 30 years and knows the company inside and out? germany many have the greatest most efficient economy in the world per capita... :worthy: Edited May 26, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 And I even made the hand plane, so I still own my floor. Not until the workers that forged the steel and cut down the wood for the handle vote on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) Not until the workers that forged the steel and cut down the wood for the handle vote on it. the skills arnt voted on stupid... if that single person paid for those materials, then he/she owns it. there is a difference between the means of production and possesion. this is possesion. not everything in the world is summed up in a collective circle. thats not how the world works. Edited May 27, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Actually, just laying a floating solid hardwood floor (Elastilon underlay, 6 mil vapor barrier). And the floor's nearly flat, except for a low spot - a quarter-inch low, but over about a 15 square foot area. Just the right size to be a royal pain in the ass. Me being me (i.e. insane, and a purist)...I knocked down the high spots with a #7 jointer (yes, I planed the subfloor flat with a big-ass hand plane), and used self-leveling patch for the rest. I suppose a belt sander would be to much like hurry up construction. Self-leveling patch? I would have tacked lead sheet to the low spot and hammered the edges to blend in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I suppose a belt sander would be to much like hurry up construction. Self-leveling patch? I would have tacked lead sheet to the low spot and hammered the edges to blend in. i would do the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) any new money would come from business costs. thats what reps are for. But who is funding the business costs? Who assumes the risk? Who reaps the reward? Does the Workers Council withhold money from the workers to pay for the upgrade? If they withhold money from the workers to upgrade the company, are they representing the workers or the company Does the Workers Council borrow money from greedy Wall St Bankers who borrow money from The Benbernank? Kind of like Vulture Capitialists? if a new person is working, they are in the collective process, they should have a say. But should their opinion carry the same weight as a seasoned veteran? everything else is common sense. if cutbacks are needed, we would look at skill, and time put in, family situation, etc. duh... again, reps. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need Edited May 27, 2012 by /dev/null Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Ooooh "careful" Oh...so you do want my attention, and now you've proven it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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