Cynical Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I don't get it either. I don't really care one way or the other if Tebow becomes a good NFL QB. He seems like a nice guy, so that's swell I guess. And the controversy around him (inspired by his very own supporters moreso than his detractors) makes him somewhat compelling to watch. But from everything I can see, he just doesn't have the tools to succeed in the NFL at that position. I could be wrong, and frankly, I don't really care since Tebow isn't wearing a Bills uniform. But his fans seem to take everything so personal. The ONLY thing that makes sense to me is that its somehow tied into the whole religious angle. I doubt it's religious. IMHO, this is Flutie v2.0 (and no, I am NOT blaming Flutie). The "nice" guy vs the "meanie" critics of the NFL. Enough critics have said the "nice" guy will not be successful at the NFL level. Batten down the hatches! Just wait till Tebow takes the field! Boy, will he prove them wrong! Another underdog story for the ages. We are already seeing the same arguments all over again: He just wins! They are not using using him properly! There's nothing to fix, he's not broken! etc ... Like somehow if you state your opinion that Tebow isn't a very good NFL QB that translates to not liking him because he's a evangelical. That's just nonsense. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. But the people who are his most outspoken fans claim there's a conspiracy against the guy. Just like a certain QB from Boston College. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) <br>And I'd suggest that most of his detractors HAVENT watched much film on the guy. They see his "awkward" motion, they hear all the experts talk about it, and their mind is made up.<br><br>If anyone DOES watch his college career, there is no way they come to the conclusion that he won't succeed in the NFL. Week in and week out, against the best defenses in the country, all the kid did was win, win championships, and set records. PASSING records, for that matter.<br><br><br>Winning NCAA Championships and setting NCAA Passing records have nothing to do with the skill sets that NFL scouts are looking for when evaluating a College QB's NFL potential. <br> Edited October 13, 2011 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 This is a list of skills off of the top of my head that scouts would look for when evaluating a College QB's NFL potential: Footwork: In a 3, 5, or 7 Step Drop....Bad footwork leads to off balance and inaccurate throws. Accuracy: The windows in the NFL are very tight which means a QB needs to be very accurate in order to complete a high percentage of throws. Reading Defenses: The ability to process defensive information quickly to throw to the open receiver. Standing Tall: Hanging in the pocket with pressure in their face and delivering an accurate and on time pass Manipulation of Coverage: The ability to look defensive backs off and manipulate safeties with their eyes so that the actual intended target is not doubled covered. Release: How quick is your delivery as that makes a difference between completions and breakups/interceptions. Arm Strength: Does the QB have the arm to make all of the throws required in the NFL. Touch: Can the QB have the skill to drop the ball in between levels of defenders. Timing and Anticipation: NFL QBs are often required to throw to your receiver in the NFL before he's out of his break...If you wait until he's open it's often too late because the coverage is far too good. Leadership and Toughness: Can you command the huddle and do your teammates respect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) <br><br>Winning NCAA Championships and setting NCAA Passing records have nothing to do with the skill sets that NFL scouts are looking for when evaluating a College QB's NFL potential. <br> Ok, so stats dont mean anything... And now watching him beat very good defenses (that run PRO defenses with future PRO players) doesnt mean anything... Youre trying to tell me it ALL comes down to footwork and throwing motion? Convenient for your argument.... This is a list of skills off of the top of my head that scouts would look for when evaluating a College QB's NFL potential: Footwork: In a 3, 5, or 7 Step Drop....Bad footwork leads to off balance and inaccurate throws. Accuracy: The windows in the NFL are very tight which means a QB needs to be very accurate in order to complete a high percentage of throws. Reading Defenses: The ability to process defensive information quickly to throw to the open receiver. Standing Tall: Hanging in the pocket with pressure in their face and delivering an accurate and on time pass Manipulation of Coverage: The ability to look defensive backs off and manipulate safeties with their eyes so that the actual intended target is not doubled covered. Release: How quick is your delivery as that makes a difference between completions and breakups/interceptions. Arm Strength: Does the QB have the arm to make all of the throws required in the NFL. Touch: Can the QB have the skill to drop the ball in between levels of defenders. Timing and Anticipation: NFL QBs are often required to throw to your receiver in the NFL before he's out of his break...If you wait until he's open it's often too late because the coverage is far too good. Leadership and Toughness: Can you command the huddle and do your teammates respect you. So he's about 75/100 from this list. With most of his deficiencies being things that can be coached and developed... Not sure what you are trying to argue? I've seen enough good things from Tebow, and seen him do all of the things on your list well enough to win Championhips at a high level. You want to say that he wont succeed simply due to throwing motion, and footwork. I believe he has enough to overcome, and correct those issues. Edited October 13, 2011 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ok, so stats dont mean anything... And now watching him beat very good defenses (that run PRO defenses with future PRO players) doesnt mean anything... Youre trying to tell me it ALL comes down to footwork and throwing motion? Convenient for your argument.... So he's about 75/100 from this list. With most of his deficiencies being things that can be coached and developed... Not sure what you are trying to argue? I've seen enough good things from Tebow, and seen him do all of the things on your list well enough to win Championhips at a high level. You want to say that he wont succeed simply due to throwing motion, and footwork. I believe he has enough to overcome, and correct those issues. I'll give him Toughness and Leadership in addition to athleticism/mobility which was not listed...but the rest of those things on the list....He is sorely lacking. That is why most scouts saw him as a marginal NFL QB prospect.....He now has his opportunity to prove all of his doubters wrong. My thought is that he has too much to overcome to make it long term. We'll see.....In the interim....I'm done on this subject......Go Bills!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 And I'd suggest that most of his detractors HAVENT watched much film on the guy. They see his "awkward" motion, they hear all the experts talk about it, and their mind is made up. If anyone DOES watch his college career, there is no way they come to the conclusion that he won't succeed in the NFL. Week in and week out, against the best defenses in the country, all the kid did was win, win championships, and set records. PASSING records, for that matter. The bolded line shows why the tebow fan boys are completely obnoxious and aren't taken seriously. They simply cannot see the flip side of the coin and comprehend that their savior might not have what it takes to be a good NFL QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ok, so stats dont mean anything... And now watching him beat very good defenses (that run PRO defenses with future PRO players) doesnt mean anything... Youre trying to tell me it ALL comes down to footwork and throwing motion? Convenient for your argument.... So he's about 75/100 from this list. With most of his deficiencies being things that can be coached and developed... Not sure what you are trying to argue? I've seen enough good things from Tebow, and seen him do all of the things on your list well enough to win Championhips at a high level. You want to say that he wont succeed simply due to throwing motion, and footwork. I believe he has enough to overcome, and correct those issues. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the nay sayers are saying he can't improve, but rather right now, he's not that spectacular and he's mostly hype. Most things can be coached other than pure physical capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) No...its comparing green apples to red apples. It's football and football. Not football and basketball. Let me go ahead and dissect this beautiful post for you. === So you are suggesting that projecting a player's potential performance in the NFL based on their ability to play college football is no more valid than projecting a player's NFL potential based on his ability to defecate? Wow. Good bye credibility. Hello absurdity. You keep shifting your argument, making you totally intellectually dishonest, but it's cool. But at least you also don't understand hyperbole, so that will help in future conversations. Make up your mind. Are you saying performance in college football means something in the NFL or college stats? They're not synonymous. I agree that how someone played in college means something in the pros, but how they played has very little to do with the stats they put up. If it was, you'd never see someone like Fred Jackson in the NFL. Or Matt Cassel. Scouts judge performance by watching film, not looking at box scores. Can we at least agree on that? === Um, actually what I'm suggesting is that you could project the talent level of a dental surgeon based on his performance in dental school versus that of other dental surgeons' performance when they were in dental school. Absurdity and lack of logical comprehension. At least you know you're absurd and lack logical comprehension. Thanks for pointing that out. The point in this analogy is both dentists and surgeons go to medical school. They take the same tests, they take the same classes. But when they go into their specialty things change. A dentist with shaky hands could put up fabulous grades in med school because he's super smart -- but his shaky hands will keep him from being a cutter. So judging the merits of his services based entirely on grades that have little to do with the actual function he's performing would be as silly as choosing a player based only on his stats from college football which, is an entirely different game than the NFL. === He did go in the first round - despite the fact that a myriad of analysts were emphatically proclaiming he would never be an NFL quarterback...In my opinion, your argument is working dead against you here. There was not a single person who did not believe Tebow would be drafted. But he didn't go number 1 overall. If stats are the end all be all of prognosticators, how do you explain that? Why didn't he go number one? More to the point, how come he couldn't even beat out Brady Quinn for the back up role in the pre-season? Right ... cause there's more to the game than stats. === Well let's see...what has Florida done since Tebow left? Well, their coach resigned, and they finished 8-5 last year and are sitting at 4-2 this year against the same competition they played en route to two national championships while Tebow was there. So apparently as soon as Tebow left, the talent level at Florida dropped off significantly enough that their head coach jumped overboard like a rat on a sinking ship... You clearly didn't read my post. But thanks for trying. I said Tebow made that team work. Now you're just arguing with yourself. But it should be noted that Urban left for health reasons ... but don't let reality get in the way. === And yet he didn't stick around to make the next quarterback into a Heisman winning, record breaking, leader of multiple national championship teams...I guess Urban is just looking for a greater challenge, eh? Perhaps he's looking for a paraplegic QB prospect that he can turn into a Heisman winner... Or perhaps he retired from burn out and health reasons. And let's not forget, Urban made Alex Smith a number 1 pick too. **** on Urban all you want, but Tebow isn't a QB unless Urban was his coach. === It is? Don't tell that to Andrew luck or Peyton Manning. In fact, why not just draft players off the street? And what exactly are they basing their draft picks on? Good looks? Again, you fail to understand where the breaking point is here. Are you talking about stats or performance? There's a difference. A guy can be a beast on the field and never put up stats. But he does his job and goes number 3 over all. Like Dareus. === You mean if he does great, you'll jump ship on your argument like Urban Meyer on a sinking Gators squad... If he does great it does nothing to disprove the argument. The argument is that stats mean dick in college when trying to evaluate a pro's potential. If Tebow does great it will be due to his ability to adapt and learn the pro game and the hard work he puts in off the field. It will have nothing to do with how many touchdowns he threw in college. You realize the only way you can be right about your love of all things statistical is if Tebow goes on to break every single NFL passing record. I mean, after all, he demolished every record in college by such a large margin he HAS to be better than any one who's ever played the game before, right? Is that what you're claiming? === I validate my existence by exposing obvious logical fallacies for people who have no capacity to do so for themselves. So you spend a lot of time talking to the mirror I take it. Relax, have a beer. Rest that two cylinder brain of yours and enjoy the fact that your guy is getting a start Sunday. Now, please tell us all, without referencing his stats in college, what you think makes Tebow a sure fire hit as an NFL QB? What specific things can you point to other than stats and accomplishments from college? Is it that he looks dreamy without his shirt on? It is, isn't it? It's okay, you're amongst friends here. Edited October 13, 2011 by tgreg99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the nay sayers are saying he can't improve, but rather right now, he's not that spectacular and he's mostly hype. Most things can be coached other than pure physical capabilities. Out of curiosity, what is the hype everyone keeps talking about? Almost all of his fans, no matter how aggressive, simply say that they think he will succeed in the NFL. No real mention of breaking records, pro bowls, hall of fame, superbowls, etc... Yes, they feel he will eventually excel and win like he did in Florida, but I haven't seen anyone hype him up more than any other draft pick with potential. And those are his fans. Everyone else AT LEAST says that he has a big learning curve and will have a long journey to success. Most others say he has no chance to be successful. Those groups includes pretty much everyone in the media. There are certainly people that are excited by his potential (and when your a Denver fan looking only at Orton as an alternative, why not?), but I just don't see the "hype". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) I am really pumped he will be making his start over our bye week. That way we can all watch him dish it out. I'll wear my Tebow Jersey to the bar Edited October 13, 2011 by Thoner7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I am really pumped he will be making his start over our bye week. That way we can all watch him dish it out. I'll wear my Tebow Jersey to the bar AND against the Dolphins!! Even more reason to cheer for him!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 For your reading pleasure: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/don_banks/10/13/tim.tebow/index.html?sct=nfl_t11_a1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 And I'd suggest that most of his detractors HAVENT watched much film on the guy. They see his "awkward" motion, they hear all the experts talk about it, and their mind is made up. If anyone DOES watch his college career, there is no way they come to the conclusion that he won't succeed in the NFL. Week in and week out, against the best defenses in the country, all the kid did was win, win championships, and set records. PASSING records, for that matter. That's exactly right. We argue using stats because it is beyond obvious they haven't watched more than perhaps a 5 min clip of Tebow's college career. And personally, I believe it is crystal clear that the dude is being ostracized because of his lifestyle, and because of his success and accolades at Florida. But in the end, Tebow will succeed, we will be laughing our asses off at all these people who have been dogging him for so long, and Merill Hoge will choke his crow on national T.V. I make these predictions, because unlike the "fence sitters" on this board, and unlike the NFL analysts who continue to drone on about his throwing motion, I watched Tebow play week after week. I saw his prodigious abilities destroy my favorite college team time after time, even when they had national championship aspirations. I learned long ago never bet against Tebow. Many people on here will learn the same lesson in the same crow-choking manner that I did. This time, I'm going to be on the "I told you so" side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) For your reading pleasure: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/don_banks/10/13/tim.tebow/index.html?sct=nfl_t11_a1 That's a pretty good article from Don Banks - well written and unbiased in my opinion. The fallacy in Dilfer's thinking is that Tebow needs to play like Manning to win championships. The whole issue that Tebow supporters are leaning on is that Tebow can play like Tebow and win. He doesn't need to play like Manning. That is the bottom line. You see, a lot of people don't want Tebow to win because him doing so would devalue the playing style of guys like Manning, who are prototypical pocket passers. Not to say that pocket passers won't succeed and be great, it's just going to become evident that you don't HAVE to play according to one certain paradigm in order to win in the NFL. And the NFL doesn't want to see this because for years, they have been moving toward a passing dominant league, and Tebow threatens to undermine this business model. So they have been spewing this propaganda that his style won't work - because they don't want to see his skill set be successful in the NFL. But it will be. We all will see soon. Isn't funny how Dilfer tries to grasp at anything he can to keep dogging Tebow? Now that Tebow is about to start (after Dilfer and others have been saying all along that he won't start in the NFL....) Dilfer is granting all of a sudden that Tebow might be successful for a few games? That just seems a little suspicious - he is backpedaling big time here on everything he has been spewing all season long. But at least for a few weeks, he'll be able to say "I told you he might be successful at first." That will buy him some more time. But Trent, it is inevitable man. You and Hoge can have a Tebow-crow choking party together. I'll buy you guys both a beer to make you feel better. Edited October 13, 2011 by SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 I'm guessing Tim Tebow Fathead sales must be through the roof. Do you guys have them on your wall or ceiling? Your just trying to direct attention away from the fact that you have one in your bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) This is a list of skills off of the top of my head that scouts would look for when evaluating a College QB's NFL potential: Footwork: In a 3, 5, or 7 Step Drop....Bad footwork leads to off balance and inaccurate throws. Accuracy: The windows in the NFL are very tight which means a QB needs to be very accurate in order to complete a high percentage of throws. Reading Defenses: The ability to process defensive information quickly to throw to the open receiver. Standing Tall: Hanging in the pocket with pressure in their face and delivering an accurate and on time pass Manipulation of Coverage: The ability to look defensive backs off and manipulate safeties with their eyes so that the actual intended target is not doubled covered. Release: How quick is your delivery as that makes a difference between completions and breakups/interceptions. Arm Strength: Does the QB have the arm to make all of the throws required in the NFL. Touch: Can the QB have the skill to drop the ball in between levels of defenders. Timing and Anticipation: NFL QBs are often required to throw to your receiver in the NFL before he's out of his break...If you wait until he's open it's often too late because the coverage is far too good. Leadership and Toughness: Can you command the huddle and do your teammates respect you. My question is this: which of these NFL skills do you allege that Tebow does not possess, and which games at Florida that you watched him play in lead you to this conclusion? You could say his footwork needs improvement...but would you not also agree that that is the easiest aspect to improve through repetition? And honestly I'm not at all saying he doesn't need to improve in other areas as well, I'm simply granting that his footwork definitely needs improvement and asking you to validate why you think he isn't capable in terms of the other items that you listed. Edited October 13, 2011 by SouthGeorgiaBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 That's a pretty good article from Don Banks - well written and unbiased in my opinion. The fallacy in Dilfer's thinking is that Tebow needs to play like Manning to win championships. The whole issue that Tebow supporters are leaning on is that Tebow can play like Tebow and win. He doesn't need to play like Manning. That is the bottom line. You see, a lot of people don't want Tebow to win because him doing so would devalue the playing style of guys like Manning, who are prototypical pocket passers. Not to say that pocket passers won't succeed and be great, it's just going to become evident that you don't HAVE to play according to one certain paradigm in order to win in the NFL. And the NFL doesn't want to see this because for years, they have been moving toward a passing dominant league, and Tebow threatens to undermine this business model. So they have been spewing this propaganda that his style won't work - because they don't want to see his skill set be successful in the NFL. But it will be. We all will see soon. Isn't funny how Dilfer tries to grasp at anything he can to keep dogging Tebow? Now that Tebow is about to start (after Dilfer and others have been saying all along that he won't start in the NFL....) Dilfer is granting all of a sudden that Tebow might be successful for a few games? That just seems a little suspicious - he is backpedaling big time here on everything he has been spewing all season long. But at least for a few weeks, he'll be able to say "I told you he might be successful at first." That will buy him some more time. But Trent, it is inevitable man. You and Hoge can have a Tebow-crow choking party together. I'll buy you guys both a beer to make you feel better. You keep blatantly missing and grossly misinterpreting what those who don't believe that Tebow will be a viable starter or star QB in the future are saying. For someone who says he is the smartest guy in every room, it's rather embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 More highlights of tebow... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIfKSyv5OTo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) For your viewing pleasure: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/behindthemic/#/nfl/2011/10/11/101111.btm_boomer_tebow Boomer Esiason opines about Tebow's chances of succeeding.<br> Edited October 13, 2011 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d823140e0/No-Huddle-Is-Tebow-starter-material NFL Network Crew debates Tebow readiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts