Not holding my breath, NGU

[birdog1960]

1st post since april and it's to attack a writer who reported an event that could only reasonably be expected to anger one bills drive. it doesn't take much imagination to hypothesize a motive.

[bills44]

Where was anything about sources mentioned?

 

"certain baseless accusations made by an anonymous poster. so i'm opening this thread in the event said poster would care to muster a response, and verify how he believes i don't know what i know." [Emphasis added]

 

NGU posted the following: "Warrow has no inside information and never has. If he was given anything there was likely some sort of an agenda to protect Buddy or Chan on this one."

 

Sounds to me like "jw" is asking where nevergiveup is getting his info....

 

I agree--take this s*** off the wall. Who cares?

 

 

street cred, mother!@#$er.

[Beerball]

And I get that JW gets extra street cred around here - I give it myself but I don't know that it warrants this thread.

 

Throw a PM out there and discuss it privately. I dunno. No offense to JW (and he's already acknowledged this) but this thread is going to be awkward and end nowhere good.

Last post here, I promise.

 

This was said:

Warrow has no inside information and never has.

That's out there and always will be.

 

If it hadn't been said then this thread wouldn't be warranted would it?

[Acantha]

No, i think from just reading what jw said that jw wants nevergiveup to post his real name like John Wawrow is, if NGU is going to make these accusations.

It's not really that simple though. JW is a reporter that uses anonymous sources, as he just did with his report on Jasper. NGU isn't a reporter, he's a source. TBD is his reporter. It's not the same situation.

 

But again, I don't think NGU is right to call out JW. As an anonymous source, he should stick to that, which he did acknowledge.

[Ramius]

Here's a simple question, after the facts.

 

JW is an AP writer. His identity is on record and he's never hidden behind it. Being an AP writer, JW has credentials, access, and sources within the team.

 

Nevergiveup, while he seems to have inside info, and may even work for the team, refuses to reveal his identity, or in what capacity he has sources with the team.

 

My question is, supposing NGU is well connected with the team, doesn't it make sense that he's going to tow the company line as he's doing and not risk his own ass? JW has nothing to lose by objectively calling out the team in a professional fashion, as he did. NGU has everything to lose by not towing the company line, which is what he's doing in this case.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Ramius

[Beerball]

It is my understanding that JW just wants to know what basis NGU has for claiming JW falsified something.

OK, I lied, this is my last post.

 

My opinion is that Wawrow would like to know who NGU is so that they can have a discussion on equal footing.

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

YE OLE feels the need to chime in and say that we collectively hope this can not continue to escalate. Collectively this board greatly appreciates the contributions that JW makes and it's clear that NGU has an inside scoop over everyone. Most all of the info. he has brought us has been well ahead of any reports from any media source and always 100% accurate. NGU, in fact, may actually be someone IN the organization. Lets not run him off either.

[Acantha]

Here's a simple question, after the facts.

 

JW is an AP writer. His identity is on record and he's never hidden behind it. Being an AP writer, JW has credentials, access, and sources within the team.

 

Nevergiveup, while he seems to have inside info, and may even work for the team, refuses to reveal his identity, or in what capacity he has sources with the team.

 

My question is, supposing NGU is well connected with the team, doesn't it make sense that he's going to tow the company line as he's doing and not risk his own ass? JW has nothing to lose by objectively calling out the team in a professional fashion, as he did. NGU has everything to lose by not towing the company line, which is what he's doing in this case.

Reasonable possibility, but doesn't fit the history. NGU has never gone out of his way to get attention or tow the company line. He just states what he knows. Getting in to that thread was out of character for him, but it read more to me that he was just surprised at how much attention it was getting and felt the need to interject.

 

But I'll admit it's possible that this was a big enough story that someone who has built up credibility with this site felt he needed to use his cred to try and squash it. Could go either way.

 

I hope neither of these guys gets butt hurt enough over this to stop posting here. I like JW's opinions on the football board and NGU certainly has the inside info on a lot of topics. No reason for this to change any of that.

 

OK, I lied, this is my last post.

 

My opinion is that Wawrow would like to know who NGU is so that they can have a discussion on equal footing.

I think the only way you get equal footing in this case is for both sides to reveal their sources. That's not going to happen, so not much point in all of this.

[hondo in seattle]

JW, a certain percentage of the human race is composed of fools. Don't be offended when you encounter one.

 

Wiser heads still trust and respect your work as a sports journalist.

[Kelly the Dog]

Reasonable possibility, but doesn't fit the history. NGU has never gone out of his way to get attention or tow the company line. He just states what he knows. Getting in to that thread was out of character for him, but it read more to me that he was just surprised at how much attention it was getting and felt the need to interject.

 

But I'll admit it's possible that this was a big enough story that someone who has built up credibility with this site felt he needed to use his cred to try and squash it. Could go either way.

 

I hope neither of these guys gets butt hurt enough over this to stop posting here. I like JW's opinions on the football board and NGU certainly has the inside info on a lot of topics. No reason for this to change any of that.

Totally agree with one small caveat, it did not feel to me that he was just surprised at how much attention it was getting, it felt to me that he was just supporting the Bills Front Office so this story doesn't get more legs. That's just my opinion.

 

I, too, hope neither of those two stop posting. IMO, NGU picked this fight though, actively. Like you said, out of character.

[Acantha]

Totally agree with one small caveat, it did not feel to me that he was just surprised at how much attention it was getting, it felt to me that he was just supporting the Bills Front Office so this story doesn't get more legs. That's just my opinion.

 

I, too, hope neither of those two stop posting. IMO, NGU picked this fight though, actively. Like you said, out of character.

I didn't express it very well, but that's what I was saying was a possibility in my second statement.

[Ramius]

Reasonable possibility, but doesn't fit the history. NGU has never gone out of his way to get attention or tow the company line. He just states what he knows. Getting in to that thread was out of character for him, but it read more to me that he was just surprised at how much attention it was getting and felt the need to interject.

 

But I'll admit it's possible that this was a big enough story that someone who has built up credibility with this site felt he needed to use his cred to try and squash it. Could go either way.

 

I hope neither of these guys gets butt hurt enough over this to stop posting here. I like JW's opinions on the football board and NGU certainly has the inside info on a lot of topics. No reason for this to change any of that.

 

 

I think the only way you get equal footing in this case is for both sides to reveal their sources. That's not going to happen, so not much point in all of this.

 

JW and NGU have opposing viewpoints/reports on this situation. But, since we know JW's identity, and thus how he's connected to the team, his reports carry much more weight than some random poster who refuses to reveal himself, no matter how much he's been correct. NGU neds to identify how he's connected with the team. He doesn't need to name himself or his sources, but it is possible to reveal how you are connected and still protect your sources.

 

If NGU refuses to identify himself, based on that refusal and his previous correct info, its fair to assume he works for the team. In which case, he's going to lie and tow the company line and attempt to discredit the press, something the Bills' brass has been very fond of during this ugly 12 years of futility.

[NoSaint]

Last post here, I promise.

 

This was said:

 

That's out there and always will be.

 

If it hadn't been said then this thread wouldn't be warranted would it?

 

 

And my last post on the topic hopefully....

 

 

who really cares?!?

 

It's an anonymous post in a relatively small board on a single discussion thread. Was it disrespectful? Sure. Are we going to change anything hashing it out here? No. Is the original post going to effect anything besides getting under JWs skin? No.

[Doc]

I respect both guys. But I've been saying that this wasn't a salary dump because they paid him $1.1M in bonuses before trading him. If they were so desperate to save money (and they only saved $2.6M by trading Evans, despite spending at least $30M in new money with the contracts/bonuses they've paid to newly signed/re-signed players), they would have traded him (or cut him) before paying him the bonus.

[Delete This Account]

again, i don't want to belabor this point, as it is not my intention to run off anyone, but instead to defend myself.

 

like anyone else here, me, you, NGU, crayonz, we should all be entitled to our opinions. so i have no problem when NGU writes:

"Overdorf manages the cap and certainly handles contract negotiations, but anyone that thinks he he making any player related decisions is way way off base. He is given parameters on deals and contract and works to them. That is it."

 

or

 

"Relative to Warrow, you can believe what you want there as well."

 

what i don't appreciate is when someone questions how anyone knows something as NGU wrote:

"Warrow has no inside information and never has."

 

or

 

"no one is talking to him that has any real information. Not sure what your infatuation is there, but I have never seen anything I would consider inside coming from him. If he claimed it was, it was not accurate. Actually none of the Bills beat reporters have access to anything that would resemble inside information."

 

that's simply wrong and irrational. as how can anyone ever pretend to know that?

i'm not asking him to reveal his sources. all i wrote was how i found it convenient that he can hide behind his veil of anonymity and take potshots and make disparaging remarks against someone whose name is his reputation.

 

jw

[NoSaint]

Here's a simple question, after the facts.

 

JW is an AP writer. His identity is on record and he's never hidden behind it. Being an AP writer, JW has credentials, access, and sources within the team.

 

Nevergiveup, while he seems to have inside info, and may even work for the team, refuses to reveal his identity, or in what capacity he has sources with the team.

 

My question is, supposing NGU is well connected with the team, doesn't it make sense that he's going to tow the company line as he's doing and not risk his own ass? JW has nothing to lose by objectively calling out the team in a professional fashion, as he did. NGU has everything to lose by not towing the company line, which is what he's doing in this case.

 

 

You could just as easily argue that if he was just following the bills-speak out of obd, then ngu wouldn't care if he was annonymous or not. This is all an example of why this thread is terrible. We have nothing of value to add. Best case is we chase off one, if not two good sources. Chill out boys.

[bills44]

 

 

I, too, hope neither of those two stop posting.

 

maybe I'm thinking of someone else, but didn't "jw" already threaten to pick up his ball and go home?

 

this message board drama is serious business!

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

I am neutral in the identity struggle between jw and NGU, since I am not sure what a resolution would actually look like in a public forum.

 

At the same time, though, I fear that the debate over NGU's intemperate (and surely false) assertion that JW has and has never had inside information is overshadowing the more interesting question, to my mind. That question is: if jw meant to imply that Overdorf "handling" the Evans trade was somehow conclusive proof that the bean counters were in charge (which he has implied heavily but danced around in every subsequent post), how does that implication square with either the fact that Baltimore's "bean counter" handled the trade from their end too, or NGU's assertion that Overdorf never made personnel decisions?

 

As much as I respect jw, and as much as I am willing to believe that the Bills' front office is far from perfect, I am distressed by the cavalier way that jw implied that Overdorf's actions were proof of something big and awful—an assertion that many posters here have chosen to run with to shore up their own pre-existing attitudes—without responding to evidence that they might not mean much of anything at all.

 

P.S. And although I am sure someone will say "well, it has started a discussion," and I like discussion as much as the next guy, part of the purpose of reporting is to help resolve discussions through the sifting of evidence.

Edited September 3, 2011 by RJ (not THAT RJ)

[NoSaint]

again, i don't want to belabor this point, as it is not my intention to run off anyone, but instead to defend myself.

 

like anyone else here, me, you, NGU, crayonz, we should all be entitled to our opinions. so i have no problem when NGU writes:

"Overdorf manages the cap and certainly handles contract negotiations, but anyone that thinks he he making any player related decisions is way way off base. He is given parameters on deals and contract and works to them. That is it."

 

or

 

"Relative to Warrow, you can believe what you want there as well."

 

what i don't appreciate is when someone questions how anyone knows something as NGU wrote:

"Warrow has no inside information and never has."

 

or

 

"no one is talking to him that has any real information. Not sure what your infatuation is there, but I have never seen anything I would consider inside coming from him. If he claimed it was, it was not accurate. Actually none of the Bills beat reporters have access to anything that would resemble inside information."

 

that's simply wrong and irrational. as how can anyone ever pretend to know that?

i'm not asking him to reveal his sources. all i wrote was how i found it convenient that he can hide behind his veil of anonymity and take potshots and make disparaging remarks against someone whose name is his reputation.

 

jw

 

 

JW - I understand all that and agree generally.... But this thread probably reflects worse than any of his comments. You have established your rep here, a single anonymous poster isn't going to hurt it. There's no way it ends up hurting you professionally. It's not going to effect your career... Call out threads always come off as immature. I'm not saying you are, but there's no way around it. Even the most deserved or well intentioned- they all look silly in the end.

 

You aren't going to get back whatever you thought you lost from that original post by running with this. All you've done is brought it to the attention of everyone reading on a probably higher traffic weekend with cuts and the opening weekend.

[Billy Zabka]

I respect both guys. But I've been saying that this wasn't a salary dump because they paid him $1.1M in bonuses before trading him. If they were so desperate to save money (and they only saved $2.6M by trading Evans, despite spending at least $30M in new money with the contracts/bonuses they've paid to newly signed/re-signed players), they would have traded him (or cut him) before paying him the bonus.

 

Cutting Evans saved the Bills 3.25 million this year and 4.75 million next year. You assume the Bills weren't trying to trade him before the roster bonus was due which may not be the case. Other teams aren't stupid and probably waited to make the Bills pay it or see if they released him before making offers.