Buffalo Barbarian Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 We all know that much of the Bills failure as a franchise over the past 50+ years can be tied directly to Ralph Wilson. He's no Terry Pegula. There have been decades of bad memories, but also a few magical moments. Either way, the reason we are all here at TBD is because of Ralph Wilson. If it weren't for him Buffalo would have never been part of the NFL. I think I have proof of that. All you young whippersnappers may not know that there was another Buffalo Bills pro football team before Mr. Wilson's Bills. From 1946 to 1949 there was the All America Football Conference or "AAFC". It was an 8-team league that rivaled the 10-team NFL. The Buffalo franchise started as the Bisons but later became the Buffalo Bills. While the AAFC folded in 1949 it was strong enough that 3 teams were merged into the NFL: The Cleveland Browns, The San Francisco 49ers, and the Baltimore Colts. The Colts were added despite Buffalo being a better supported franchise: In 1949 Buffalo had almost 600,000 people, it was a Top-15 metropolitan area, and it was at the peak of its post-WWII prosperity. If a league would ever want a team in Buffalo it would have been in the late 40's. And yet, the NFL shunned us. Buffalo, as a city, has long had a poor reputation. It was considered an unsophisticated town with lousy weather. And the NFL was not the only pro sports league to spurn us. Major League baseball had Buffalo penciled in for its 1969 expansion but Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley pushed that team to Montreal. Even the NHL shunned Buffalo in its 1966 expansion. (Though, oddly, the NBA gave us the Braves in the 1970's, a time when the city's decline was well under way.) So you can see the NFL was never going to invite Buffalo into their club. The only way it happened is as a package deal merger with the AFL that our own Ralph Wilson negotiated. So my question to you is it better to love the Bills with all it's warts than to never had the Bills at all? PTR Lots of good work Promo and of course we want the Bills but that doesn't mean we want a mediocre product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weehawk Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ralph bought the team during a very different era. Buffalo was a hot town in the 60s and early 70s. You're making an assumption that if Ralph didn't do it, that no one ever would have. While I think that may be somewhat true, it will never be known for sure. He more than got what he needed/wanted out of it and we as a town and fans got what we needed/wanted (for the most part). The Bills could be part of the reason the City is looked down upon and that Buffaloians are considered losers. I never thought Pittsburgh was much of a city, but look at what championship teams have done for them. People (and more importantly businesses) want to be associated with winners and often that's equated to successful sports teams. Would we have been better off without the Bills? Perhaps. Maybe we would have become a major NCAA region (like Carolina) and we would have reaped the benefits of a larger college presence with the corporations that go along with it. Of course this assumes that the State of NY was not run by a bunch of union thugs and political criminals. After all is said and done, the Bills really did not make much of a difference to the long-term viability of the region. They attracted nothing of any real long-term value. I think that's the saddest part of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) If the moon were made of BBQ spare ribs, would you eat it? If the team leaves, I think UB would be wise to sink as much money as they can into their program. the University can't leave town. Buffalo just might be a college football town in 50 years. I was hoping this was a joke...after taking the time to see it's not....I see your delusion of choosing a program far beyond worse than the Bills! Edited August 25, 2011 by KollegeStudnet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 How many Ralph Wilson apologists will remain when the Bills relocate to Los Angeles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 There were 10 teams in the AFL - winning a championship was less of an accomplishment. Its not all about winning - its about making an effort - there has been very little effort in the last decade. I like Chan and Buddy just fine - but they aren't the problem. Its the puppetmaster who meddles and retains incompetents and appoints marketing whizzes as CEO's and sides with his money man in his spat with the greatest personnel evaluator the league has ever known who is the problem. Our periods of success were accidents, not design. He lucked into Saban, fired him, and brought him back again. He fired Polian and ran Butler out of town. All we as fans ask for is a concerted effort to win - we aren't getting that from ownership. All the good will of the 90's is finally wearing off, which is why season tickets sales are flagging. People are finally realizing that Ralph doesn't really care about fielding a winner. Not to mention, I am almost 50 years old and I might still have been in diapers then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Like all marriages...for better or worse...we are married to Ralph as our owner! Ralph is going to be 93 years old soon..Yes, he is old...Yes, he probably should've sold the team...but, he hasn't! This is Ralph's legacy...he wants to own this team until the end! Just like Golisano...Ralph and Co. are keeping costs down...based on the fact homeboy is almost 93 and might not make it that much longer--meaning this team will likely be sold! When he passes the team will be sold to the highest bidder! My theory is....The Wilson family will only CHOSE that the highest bidder will keep the team in Buffalo to further fulfill the legacy of the Buffalo Bills... including HOF owner of 50+ years--Ralphie boy! So, it's NOT based on the highest bidder overall, but the highest bidder to keep the team in WNY! An example of knowing his legacy to keep going: Ralph doesn't just donate 2.5 million to the HOF to eventually watch from his grave his beloved team leave...he donates the 2.5 million to carry on his legacy--the tax write-off is just a plus! Seriously, these are the final years of this guys life...an American hero...a World War II veteran--let's go about these next several years in at least showing some appreciation to the guy who has kept this team here through thick and through thin! We might not all agree with some of his moves, but he has tried to put a product on the field every season to be competitive! Go Bills! Edited August 25, 2011 by KollegeStudnet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ralph has kept the team here due to us...the Erie County taxpayers who have been subsidizing his money making operation for decades. So, no I won't be thanking Ralph any time soon. He should be thanking ME and the rest of the taxpayers in this county. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 . . . wrong about his heirs not wanting the team (it's a little more complicated). . . Can you be a little more specific without disclosing confidences? One possible interpretation of your remark is that one or more of Ralph's heirs would like to own the team after Ralph passes, but faces some obstacle. Finding a way to pay inheritance taxes might be the most common reason why descendants or other heirs of the owner of a successful family business don't inherit the business even if they would otherwise want it. Is that one of the reasons why the situation here is "a little more complicated?" Ralph's estate will need to have enough cash to pay estate taxes on the value of all his assets, not just the Bills. If you believe Forbes, the Bills are not entirely debt-free. So the existing team debt, combined with the NFL Bylaw mandate establishing a debt ceiling for each team, might limit the estate's ability to use the team as collateral to borrow enough money to pay the required estate taxes. There's also the question of whether such borrowing, even if available in the required amounts, would seriously hinder the team's ability to make a future profit in Buffalo. If Ralph's other assets are less immediately marketable for fair value than the Bills, it might make more sense, from an estate planning perspective, to liquidate the ownership interest in the Bills to raise the necessary cash, as opposed to selling assets for which there is a less immediately available buyer. I haven't made any back-of-the-envelope calculations, but I think the above describes how it often works. Can you provide any explanation about why you believe the heir situation is "a little more complicated?" Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 You're taking off on a tangent. The point I was disputing was that Wilson would make more money by moving the team out of Buffalo. Of course he could also have made more money by selling minority shares, which he declined to do, simply because he didn't have to. Owning an NFL franchise is still among the biggest strokes a rich guy can have, and he's not going to part with any portion unless he has serious cash issues. And that's where the argument is. Bills generate a lot of operating cash for Wilson and I'll go on a limb by guessing that the Bills are the cash engine in Ralph Wilson Enterprises. I'll ignore the inane point that Wilson hoards the pennies. He spends just enough to make sure that RWE gets its cash at the end of the year. Let's not ignore that in addition to griping about players, Wilson never (until 2010) was willing to pay top dollar for front office & coaching. Bills also had a bare bones scouting department until the '80s. So yeah, he could have monetized his investment more as he kept the team in Buffalo, but he preferred the cold hard cash without much effort instead. Until of course he found a bigger sucker than Bills fans in Ted Rogers. I don't consider it a tangent at all. I was originally responding to another poster who said he couldn't always have made more money in Buffalo, and since he is only a businessman, all he cares about is making money. Ralph could sell 64% of the team if he wanted, for well over $500 in cash, and still have total control over it the way he does now (if he divided it up so they couldn't outvote him. Or 49% for $375 million or whatever, and have the team move and make a killing. IF of course, he is all about money. Of course he is cheap at times. Of course he doesn't spend like we think he should or others would in his position. One of his biggest faults, IMO, is exactly what you said, about paying coaches and football men and front office people. And of course he has a great deal in Buffalo. If he wanted to make a lot more money for himself, however, he could whenever he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ralph has kept the team here due to us...the Erie County taxpayers who have been subsidizing his money making operation for decades. So, no I won't be thanking Ralph any time soon. He should be thanking ME and the rest of the taxpayers in this county. I understand...I really do, but you look at all the other owners in the league and they all do the same thing Ralphie pooh has done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) I never said Ralph was Mother Theresa. I'm asking would you rather have the Bills as they are or no NFL team in Buffalo ever? Don't read schitt into this. PTR It's also likely that if Ralph moved the team out, someone else would have put a team in. Playing "what-if" with history is a futile exercise, particularly when someone like you preordains the outcome. Like you said, Buffalo had huge fan support, and was a Top 15 metro area with large Corporations all around it (at the time). So, if Ralph did not do what he did, it's highly likely that someone else would have. Edited August 25, 2011 by RyanC883 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 How many Ralph Wilson apologists will remain when the Bills relocate to Los Angeles? When the Los Angeles Bills form their forum...you can be the first to post your appreciation of not having a team anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Flowers Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 When the Los Angeles Bills form their forum...you can be the first to post your appreciation of not having a team anymore! If it's like every other team that has gone to LA they will be back in 5 years or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ralph bought the team during a very different era. Buffalo was a hot town in the 60s and early 70s. You're making an assumption that if Ralph didn't do it, that no one ever would have. While I think that may be somewhat true, it will never be known for sure. He more than got what he needed/wanted out of it and we as a town and fans got what we needed/wanted (for the most part). The Bills could be part of the reason the City is looked down upon and that Buffaloians are considered losers. I never thought Pittsburgh was much of a city, but look at what championship teams have done for them. People (and more importantly businesses) want to be associated with winners and often that's equated to successful sports teams. Would we have been better off without the Bills? Perhaps. Maybe we would have become a major NCAA region (like Carolina) and we would have reaped the benefits of a larger college presence with the corporations that go along with it. Of course this assumes that the State of NY was not run by a bunch of union thugs and political criminals. After all is said and done, the Bills really did not make much of a difference to the long-term viability of the region. They attracted nothing of any real long-term value. I think that's the saddest part of all. Carolina and Pittsburgh have lower taxes and are not run by the corrupt NYC politicans, union bosses, etc. that run NY State. If "upstate and WNY" would break off, you'd see the situation would be much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 We should really thank Lamar Hunt and whoever turned Ralph away in Miami for the Bills, I guess. The whole question of would you rather have a bad team or no team is pointless. The decision to put a team here was made by the AFL 50 years ago. Why must we chose between poor quality football and no football? Can anyone name one other NFL fanbase having this question put to them by other fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direhard Fan Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 PTR is 100% correct. We were Cleveland fans before the Bills and would still be. Thank you Ralph. When I was a kid the Bills were the best thing that ever happened to Buffalo and still is. Let us not forget the early 90's . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Promo, it's like business, "What is the bottom line and what have you done for me lately?" We actually DON'T owe Ralph anything; he owes us. After all, we're the customers in this equation and successful businesses serve their customers. Of course, most businesses aren't subsidized, as are the Bills, by local and state governments and the NFL through contracts with the media, and thus able to ignore their direct customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Anyone for Tennyson? I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; Tis better to have and NFL team and suck; Then it is to never have had an NFL team at all. Brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I never said Ralph was Mother Theresa. I'm asking would you rather have the Bills as they are or no NFL team in Buffalo ever? Don't read schitt into this. PTR I'd rather have no team than have a team that doesn't give a rat's ass about winning and is only concerned about the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Ralph has kept the team here due to us...the Erie County taxpayers who have been subsidizing his money making operation for decades. So, no I won't be thanking Ralph any time soon. He should be thanking ME and the rest of the taxpayers in this county. I think the owner should be smooching the butts of every devoted bills fan out there for keeping him in business and filling his pockets Kinda like the line in Braveheart, he thinks we are here to serve him and keep him profitable. I think he is here with an obligation to build the best football team that his profits allow, he hasn't done that....except with Polian as GM! My take is he has many expensive hobbies like horse breeding, racing and the profits he takes from the Bills allows him to live in luxury and keep his many toys. I've lived all over the country and been a fan of many teams, but have been a Bills fan the longest. I used to think that the Lions-Cardinals were the worst run football org's in the NFL....without question its now the Buffalo Bills. I'd rather have no NFL team in the area then an inferior product because the owner doesn't care if his team wins or not, as long as it makes a profit he is happy and content Buffalo Bills fans define the word fanatic because they are so devoted and passionate about their team, they deserve better then what has been given to them the last decade. The Wilson family selling this franchise can't happen soon enough in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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