What has the switch to the 3-4 gotten us?

[Wayne Cubed]

Last offseason, we took a decent-but-not-great cover-2 system and switched it to a 3-4 without the players, coaches, or planning needed to make the change. What were the results? As best I can understand it, this is what occurred:

 

1) Our best player, Aaron Schobel, retired because he didn't want to play OLB

 

2) We made Kelsay a 3-4 OLB, which he can't freakin' play (he could barely play in a 4-3), and handed him a huge contract extension; we made Stroud a 3-4 end although he wasn't built for it

 

3) Our second best player, Kyle Williams, plays out of position - as well as he does it, it's not hard to imagine that he'd be all the better as a 4-3 penetrator

 

4) We're in year 2 and we still don't have a true NT on the roster (DON'T say Jaspar for chrissakes)

 

5) We've now lost our only decent LB because of the system switch

 

6) The defensive coordinator who was supposed to be the architect of the switch already has been semi-demoted

 

7) Oh yeah, our D got worse last year

 

So tell me, what have we gained here? Someone explain it to me. I know Nix is such a great football mind/team-builder, I keep hearing it from the PTR Crew. But I have yet to see it in action.

 

Ok going from 30 -32 in Rushing Defense, technically is getting worse. But lets be honest, it isn't getting that much worse. The pass defense basically stayed the same, but improved a little because teams knew they could rush on us. So what does that say IMO? With the same basic players, in a different scheme, we still couldn't stop teams offenses or running attacks. So maybe, just maybe, its the players. As I recall, when the Bills were playing the 4-3 people were screaming and yelling about how much we need to switch to the 3-4.

 

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. It will take time to develop this new system. Its not an overnight fix.

[Coach Tuesday]

What is hilarious, and sadly typical of the comments here, is that no one has the patience to let any plan take shape. If the team doesn't turn around immediately, tear it all down again. Everyone knew the 3-4 switch would take at least two seasons yet here we are moaning about how a year into it and nothing changed. We love losing so much we want to sabotage ourselves at every turn.

 

PTR

 

After 13 years you're damn right I'm out of patience.

[beast34]

I didn't love that defense John but if you're going to make a switch you'd better have a decent plan in place. The Bills have been on their organizational heels ever since making the change in schemes.

Sadly that has been the case ever since gregg williams and the turk decided to make the switch the 4-3.

[C.Biscuit97]

Sadly that has been the case ever since gregg williams and the turk decided to make the switch the 4-3.

 

We finished #2 in defense twice in a row after Greggo left.

 

and to say we have no plan in place after spending #3 overall pick on a DT; 2nd & 3rds on d linemen & ILB; and signing a good FA d linemen last year is just stupid. Now, the players need to produce.

[K-9]

After 13 years you're damn right I'm out of patience.

 

Only 13 years? Why you're a comparative newbie.

 

From 1960 thru 1984 the Buffalo Bills had the WORST winning percentage of any team in any of the four major league sports in North America. And yet... we loved them.

 

I'm not making light of your pain. Just sayin' you're in good company and it could be worse.

 

Hang in there.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The ONLY thing I can say to you Coach is that sometimes you have to get worse before you can get better.

 

I know it's not much but it's all I got.

 

Wasn't 4-12 the "worse"? when do we get to the "better"?

Obviously this year. I think Marcel Dareus will have a huge impact and I think many of the Bills younger players (Moats, Troup, Carrington, Coleman, Batten, etc) will make strong contributions.

 

Funny...i remember a small cover 2 D that all the fans wanted gone saying how much better a 3-4 would be. Takes Time to build.

There were many people clamoring for the 3-4, yes.

 

There were also many wise posters here who said that the scheme is immaterial… it's all about talent and coaching… and that the Bills roster consisted of 4-3 players.

 

Also, some here felt that the timing for converting to a 3-4 was wrong because doing so was becoming trendy to the point that there would be stiff competition for 3-4 players… and therefore it would be better to stick with a 4-3… if you believe that the scheme really doesn't matter, then it's better to run a scheme where there is LESS competition for players.

 

That said, the Bills have committed to this path and are pretty far down it… to the point of no return.

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Only 13 years? Why you're a comparative newbie.

 

From 1960 thru 1984 the Buffalo Bills had the WORST winning percentage of any team in any of the four major league sports in North America. And yet... we loved them.

 

I'm not making light of your pain. Just sayin' you're in good company and it could be worse.

 

Hang in there.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I'm 30, so since I started caring about football, they have sucked for a decade and were amazing for a decade. So my patience is a lot higher. But it does get less and less by the year. That said, I will always trick myself (with alcohol mainly) to believing there is a chance at every season opener.

[John from Riverside]

I wanted Poz back

 

I dont think losing Poz is a deal breaker for improvement on this defense.....because our down linemen are greatly improved

 

It takes time to make the switch to a 3-4 defense because you need large down linemen that can take up more then one blocker....last year we did nto have that....this year we do.....

[K-9]

I'm 30, so since I started caring about football, they have sucked for a decade and were amazing for a decade. So my patience is a lot higher. But it does get less and less by the year. That said, I will always trick myself (with alcohol mainly) to believing there is a chance at every season opener.

 

I'll never forget when the Red Sox lost to the Yankees in the 2003 ALCS on Aaron Boone's homer. They were showing all sorts of dejected Sox fans milling about Boston and they showed a guy in a T-shirt that read:

 

"Cheer up. Anyone can have a bad century."

 

I'm not quite sure what it is but there's a lesson there somewhere.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[beast34]

We finished #2 in defense twice in a row after Greggo left.

 

and to say we have no plan in place after spending #3 overall pick on a DT; 2nd & 3rds on d linemen & ILB; and signing a good FA d linemen last year is just stupid. Now, the players need to produce.

And how many playoff games did we win since changing to the 4-3 front? What the op should say is what did the change to the 4-3 get us.

[C.Biscuit97]

I'll never forget when the Red Sox lost to the Yankees in the 2003 ALCS on Aaron Boone's homer. They were showing all sorts of dejected Sox fans milling about Boston and they showed a guy in a T-shirt that read:

 

"Cheer up. Anyone can have a bad century."

 

I'm not quite sure what it is but there's a lesson there somewhere.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

Honestly in a sick way, that's part of the fun. Boston and the Red Sox especially used to be the most tortured team in sports. It can all change in an instant. The Sox is filled with bandwagon fans and pink hats. It's easy to root for them. You know what it's not easy to do? Root for the Bills and check a message board at 1 am on Wednesday. There are a lot of idiots on this board, but I do think Bills fans care as much as any group in sports. And at least we've been to a Super Bowl. Imagine being a Lions or Browns fans.

 

All it takes is one season to change everything.

[sllib olaffub]

What is hilarious, and sadly typical of the comments here, is that no one has the patience to let any plan take shape. If the team doesn't turn around immediately, tear it all down again. Everyone knew the 3-4 switch would take at least two seasons yet here we are moaning about how a year into it and nothing changed. We love losing so much we want to sabotage ourselves at every turn.

 

PTR

I don't think we love losing - I think it's just comments like "We're not going to be big spenders in F.A." when we're so obviously short on talent - at least compared to the elite teams, and we're way under the cap. It's a 15 year run at mediocrity or worse and the front office acts as if it has all the time in the world to improve, even though the owner may pass away any year, and there is no assurances by him that the team will remain. There is reason to be frustrated, and it is the attitude of the front office. It just doesn't act like winning is necessary.

 

However, I do like our young guys on D, and I think we're about 3 or 4 starters away from being competitive. I wouldn't mind us losing bad this year and landing Luck. I wouldn't mind us starting a lot of young guys just to see how good they can be. It's more a lack of intent, as we can see, on the part of the team. As a fanbase, it just looks like the front office had become complacent. So, it is hard to be patient and accept that in a year or two we'll be playoff bound.

 

As an aside, condsidering this post - I think a big 4-3 look with our personnel might be pretty nasty. Williams and Dareus on the inside - that would be formidable. Kelsay and Carrington, or Edwards and Carrington on the outside. Sheppard, as MLB, with Moats and Merriman as OLB's. I think it might not be too bad a look. They Hybrid thing - that is a good idea, and there are more teams looking to do it, so I like that Buffalo has the foresight to see a shift in the game.

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't think we love losing - I think it's just comments like "We're not going to be big spenders in F.A." when we're so obviously short on talent - at least compared to the elite teams, and we're way under the cap. It's a 15 year run at mediocrity or worse and the front office acts as if it has all the time in the world to improve, even though the owner may pass away any year, and there is no assurances by him that the team will remain. There is reason to be frustrated, and it is the attitude of the front office. It just doesn't act like winning is necessary.

 

However, I do like our young guys on D, and I think we're about 3 or 4 starters away from being competitive. I wouldn't mind us losing bad this year and landing Luck. I wouldn't mind us starting a lot of young guys just to see how good they can be. It's more a lack of intent, as we can see, on the part of the team. As a fanbase, it just looks like the front office had become complacent. So, it is hard to be patient and accept that in a year or two we'll be playoff bound.

 

As an aside, condsidering this post - I think a big 4-3 look with our personnel might be pretty nasty. Williams and Dareus on the inside - that would be formidable. Kelsay and Carrington, or Edwards and Carrington on the outside. Sheppard, as MLB, with Moats and Merriman as OLB's. I think it might not be too bad a look. They Hybrid thing - that is a good idea, and there are more teams looking to do it, so I like that Buffalo has the foresight to see a shift in the game.

 

Good post. And I don't know why it took so long to embrace the idea of a hybrid. It makes so much sense. Just draft good football players and make the system fit them, instead of the other way.

 

And it's boring and probably risky to do, but we're doing it the Pittsburgh way. Trust your draft picks, build a great d line (the real reason for the Steelers' success), let high price guys go (Lloyd, Chad Brown, Porter, Kevin Greene, Kirkland), and replace them. Hopefully, Nix and company are good drafters.

[ganesh]

Kyle Williams isn't a true NT, but the guy plays the position great, even if it isn't the normal way and he isn't as big. The biggest problem with the defense last year was Stroud at DE, and pretty much all the LBs. Poz was pretty good, but the guy wasn't a playmaker. He looked better than he did because all the other LBs sucked so bad. Moats showed he is pretty cool as a pass rusher, but hasn't proved much as the run goes.

 

With that said, losing poz sucks, because he was our best LB on the team. We have to either hope that Shepard is fast learner or hope they find someone decent to replace him.

 

The biggest problem with the defense last year was having a LB coach as the DC who was way over his head with the scheme and was completely outmatched by the opposing OCs. This defense couldn't protect leads in 2nd half and couldn't stop opposing teams when needed. I really wished that Gailey can him and make Wannestedt the Coordinator. This defense will improve by leaps and bounds. I hope Gailey wakes up from his brain cramp like the 3rd game of last season and does the right thing.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Last offseason, we took a decent-but-not-great cover-2 system and switched it to a 3-4 without the players, coaches, or planning needed to make the change. What were the results? As best I can understand it, this is what occurred:

 

1) Our best player, Aaron Schobel, retired because he didn't want to play OLB

 

2) We made Kelsay a 3-4 OLB, which he can't freakin' play (he could barely play in a 4-3), and handed him a huge contract extension; we made Stroud a 3-4 end although he wasn't built for it

 

3) Our second best player, Kyle Williams, plays out of position - as well as he does it, it's not hard to imagine that he'd be all the better as a 4-3 penetrator

 

4) We're in year 2 and we still don't have a true NT on the roster (DON'T say Jaspar for chrissakes)

 

5) We've now lost our only decent LB because of the system switch

 

6) The defensive coordinator who was supposed to be the architect of the switch already has been semi-demoted

 

7) Oh yeah, our D got worse last year

 

So tell me, what have we gained here? Someone explain it to me. I know Nix is such a great football mind/team-builder, I keep hearing it from the PTR Crew. But I have yet to see it in action.

Dude it takes time, it takes a 2-3 years to fully transition from one D to the next. We went from 34 to 43 with Gregg Williams because his was the "best" and ours was 3rd look what that got us 3-13, Drew Bledsoe and Mike Williams. But after a few years we were a top ranked D again with Sam Adams and Pat Williams in the middle. Now the D-line is set and we shall see with the linbackers this year and by next year our D will be great.

[thewildrabbit]

Last offseason, we took a decent-but-not-great cover-2 system and switched it to a 3-4 without the players, coaches, or planning needed to make the change. What were the results? As best I can understand it, this is what occurred:

 

1) Our best player, Aaron Schobel, retired because he didn't want to play OLB

 

2) We made Kelsay a 3-4 OLB, which he can't freakin' play (he could barely play in a 4-3), and handed him a huge contract extension; we made Stroud a 3-4 end although he wasn't built for it

 

3) Our second best player, Kyle Williams, plays out of position - as well as he does it, it's not hard to imagine that he'd be all the better as a 4-3 penetrator

 

4) We're in year 2 and we still don't have a true NT on the roster (DON'T say Jaspar for chrissakes)

 

5) We've now lost our only decent LB because of the system switch

 

6) The defensive coordinator who was supposed to be the architect of the switch already has been semi-demoted

 

7) Oh yeah, our D got worse last year

 

So tell me, what have we gained here? Someone explain it to me. I know Nix is such a great football mind/team-builder, I keep hearing it from the PTR Crew. But I have yet to see it in action.

Hey! look on the bright side. The Bills set a record for the franchise.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

worst defense against the run

 

 

 

Almost everyone on this board was so giddy going into free agency this year, I tried to warn ya. I've also been warning about this coaching staff and GM, nobody listening.

[xsoldier54]

Last offseason, we took a decent-but-not-great cover-2 system and switched it to a 3-4 without the players, coaches, or planning needed to make the change. What were the results? As best I can understand it, this is what occurred:

 

1) Our best player, Aaron Schobel, retired because he didn't want to play OLB

 

2) We made Kelsay a 3-4 OLB, which he can't freakin' play (he could barely play in a 4-3), and handed him a huge contract extension; we made Stroud a 3-4 end although he wasn't built for it

 

3) Our second best player, Kyle Williams, plays out of position - as well as he does it, it's not hard to imagine that he'd be all the better as a 4-3 penetrator

 

4) We're in year 2 and we still don't have a true NT on the roster (DON'T say Jaspar for chrissakes)

 

5) We've now lost our only decent LB because of the system switch

 

6) The defensive coordinator who was supposed to be the architect of the switch already has been semi-demoted

 

7) Oh yeah, our D got worse last year

 

So tell me, what have we gained here? Someone explain it to me. I know Nix is such a great football mind/team-builder, I keep hearing it from the PTR Crew. But I have yet to see it in action.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Look out! Everyone take cover! Best LB? Pozlusny was injury prone and slow as hell. I am not the least bit disapointed to see him go.

[downunderbill]

So tell me, what have we gained here?

 

A start.

[LabattBlue]

The Bills didn't need to switch from the cover-2 4-3 to a 3-4. They just needed to switch to a standard 4-3 that didn't rely on 230 pound LB's and 240 pound DE's. They should just shitcan the 3-4 or hybrid completely.

[dave mcbride]

Ok going from 30 -32 in Rushing Defense, technically is getting worse. But lets be honest, it isn't getting that much worse. The pass defense basically stayed the same, but improved a little because teams knew they could rush on us. So what does that say IMO? With the same basic players, in a different scheme, we still couldn't stop teams offenses or running attacks. So maybe, just maybe, its the players. As I recall, when the Bills were playing the 4-3 people were screaming and yelling about how much we need to switch to the 3-4.

 

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. It will take time to develop this new system. Its not an overnight fix.

Actually, the Bills' pass defense last year was the worst in the franchise's entire history, with opposing QBs racking up a collective 92.6 passer rating.