CA OC Bills Fan Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 In all likelihood, Merriman signed with Buffalo when no other team offered guaranteed money. And if 31 other teams' pro scouting departments aren't keen on the player, it has to make one wonder why the Bills would take a chance and guarantee dollars. 2.5M may not sound like a lot with a cap of 120M and teams prospectively required to spend let's say 108. OTOH, Buffalo has fewer resources to call on during this rebuild, and Nix' track record in evaluating pro personnel while Bills GM so far hasn't been very good. The burden is on Nix, in essence because he's gambling precious few resources that could be spent improving a very weak roster on a guy with 4 sacks in the last 4 seasons. I would also add that a healthy but ineffective Merriman keeps guys like Moats and Batten from getting game experience because Buffalo can't afford to take their high profile signing off the field. That would be admitting they made another bad personnel decision and prevent the staff from finding out if some of their late round picks are indeed starting worthy. Not correct. The Dolfish and Suckaneers also put in claims on him. Since he was waived, the order of claims goes from worst record to best. Since the Bills were the only winless team at the time, they had first choice on waiver claims. Link: http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2010/11/3/1792406/shawne-merriman-waiver-claims-dolphins-buccaneers-bills I also disagree with the second point. If he is healthy and ineffective, I don't believe that Gailey will leave him on the field just to show the world what a stupid decision it was to sign Merriman. Gailey likely will give Merriman a chance, more chances than someone who was never good (Maybin), but, he won't play the entire season if he sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Not correct. The Dolfish and Suckaneers also put in claims on him. Since he was waived, the order of claims goes from worst record to best. Since the Bills were the only winless team at the time, they had first choice on waiver claims. Link: http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2010/11/3/1792406/shawne-merriman-waiver-claims-dolphins-buccaneers-bills I also disagree with the second point. If he is healthy and ineffective, I don't believe that Gailey will leave him on the field just to show the world what a stupid decision it was to sign Merriman. Gailey likely will give Merriman a chance, more chances than someone who was never good (Maybin), but, he won't play the entire season if he sucks. You're discussing different events. Yes, more than 1 team put a waiver claim in on Merriman, which meant the team that was awarded Merriman assumed his Chargers contract as is. But, it is also true that the Bills were the 1 team willing to give him $2.5M guaranteed when they gave him a second contract after he injured himself walking out of the locker room to his first practice. His 2 year deal will reportedly default to an average of $5.25M per season -- for a guy that didn't make it through a single practice. It is not unusual at all that the guy that gets paid the larger bag of coin is the starter, and in the case of a fading "name" player will get the benefit of the doubt. It's obvious that the fact Nix is high on Merriman at this point in time is based much more on the name on the jersey and his past connection than anything he has seen him do on an NFL football field in the past 4 seasons. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5978595 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) You're discussing different events. Yes, more than 1 team put a waiver claim in on Merriman, which meant the team that was awarded Merriman assumed his Chargers contract as is. But, it is also true that the Bills were the 1 team willing to give him $2.5M guaranteed when they gave him a second contract after he injured himself walking out of the locker room to his first practice. His 2 year deal will reportedly default to an average of $5.25M per season -- for a guy that didn't make it through a single practice. It is not unusual at all that the guy that gets paid the larger bag of coin is the starter, and in the case of a fading "name" player will get the benefit of the doubt. It's obvious that the fact Nix is high on Merriman at this point in time is based much more on the name on the jersey and his past connection than anything he has seen him do on an NFL football field in the past 4 seasons. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5978595 Got damn it. How many times do the actual numbers need to be posted in this thread? It's 5.25m in 2011 if he is on the roster during the season. 2.5 of that is various bonuses that can be spread over 3 years. Then if he meets the "2010" injury clause he gets 3M in 2012. If you want to average that would be 4.145M a season. (actually less because .5M of the bonuses hit the 2010 books.) That average assume though he was healthy and played in 2011. Otherwise he wouldn't have met the "2010 injury clause" and wouldn't get the additional 3M. Making this whole discussion moot. If he helps the Bills and meets performance incentives. 1.) it will be much more expensive and 2.) this whole discussion would be moot because he would be healthy and performing. Edited July 17, 2011 by Why So Serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 The Chargers were so convinced Merriman was washed up that they tried to get him to sign an incentive laden deal as well as tendering him at a $3.2m, 1st and 3rd pick, contract in March, 2010 and they were happy when he finally signed it and ended his holdout before last season. Good points. Although I'm sure Smith was hacked-off that Merriman held-out so long, missed 2 weeks of TC, every pre-season game, and the first regular season game, then got injured again in the 3rd game. Lol! Close. I actually think PdadDy has got most of the details & reality right. I just really disagree with his interpretation of them. Oh, and I guess his unwillingness to see that other peoples points-of-view have any validity. The closest analogy to player drafting & FA market is to a poker tourney. It's all a series of gambles. Some of them are BIG gambles and some are small ones. Hoping to win more than you lose. IF you win a big pot (great player) it can make up for a whole lot of little ones that you lose. Similarly if you win enough little ones it can make up for a big one that you lose. Just like in poker, the best don't always win. The best poker players get bumped off all the time. However they regularly (over time) do a whole lot better than the rest. Same in football player management. Scott Pioli & Bill Polian consistantly got better players for their teams than Matt Millen. While Millen is an easy target, the 29 or so other GM's did varying degrees of worse and occasionally better than both of them. But over time, they've done better than almost everyone else. I'm not worried about one individual gamble. Especially one that I think has high reward potential. We hit on Merriman it makes up for a lot of Erik Greens. Unless the Bills are within $2.5M of the cap ceiling, the money used re-signing Merriman (assuming he's a bust) is moot. And to be fair, Green injured his right knee early in training camp that forced him to miss a good portion of camp and 2 pre-season games, and which lingered into the season and didn't heal before he was cut. In all likelihood, Merriman signed with Buffalo when no other team offered guaranteed money. Since Merriman/his agent would have had to contact all other 30 (minus Bills and Chargers) illegally to find out if they'd give him guaranteed money, it would be easier for me to say that he didn't fully explore his options than for you to say he had no other offers of guaranteed money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Good points. Although I'm sure Smith was hacked-off that Merriman held-out so long, missed 2 weeks of TC, every pre-season game, and the first regular season game, then got injured again in the 3rd game. ... It's safe to say Smith was already ticked off as his previous public spats with Merriman would suggest. The 2010 holdout from OTAs, training camp, and the first game added to it and the injury put him over the top. When it comes to AJ Smith, it's safe to assume he's hacked off at someone given the coaches, players, and agents he's alienated over the years. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA OC Bills Fan Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 You're discussing different events. Yes, more than 1 team put a waiver claim in on Merriman, which meant the team that was awarded Merriman assumed his Chargers contract as is. But, it is also true that the Bills were the 1 team willing to give him $2.5M guaranteed when they gave him a second contract after he injured himself walking out of the locker room to his first practice. His 2 year deal will reportedly default to an average of $5.25M per season -- for a guy that didn't make it through a single practice. It is not unusual at all that the guy that gets paid the larger bag of coin is the starter, and in the case of a fading "name" player will get the benefit of the doubt. It's obvious that the fact Nix is high on Merriman at this point in time is based much more on the name on the jersey and his past connection than anything he has seen him do on an NFL football field in the past 4 seasons. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5978595 Since he was already claimed by the Bills weeks or months earlier and was still under contract with them, we'll never know what any other team may or may not have offered him. Merriman was not a free agent and therefore teams could not negotiate with him while still under contract with the Bills. You may be correct that noone else but Buddy would have taken a chance on him (personnally, I think others may have taken the risk as well), but, because he was signed to an extension before he became a free agent, we'll never know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsWatch Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 link I'm not sure that $2.5M is a desperate act, much less than they've thrown at some less than stellar o-linemen. Some have called Bucky Brooks articles desperate attempts at earning a paycheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Since he was already claimed by the Bills weeks or months earlier and was still under contract with them, we'll never know what any other team may or may not have offered him. Merriman was not a free agent and therefore teams could not negotiate with him while still under contract with the Bills. You may be correct that noone else but Buddy would have taken a chance on him (personnally, I think others may have taken the risk as well), but, because he was signed to an extension before he became a free agent, we'll never know for sure. IIRC, his agent was the one that said that the Bills offer was far better than anything any other team offered. Got damn it. How many times do the actual numbers need to be posted in this thread? It's 5.25m in 2011 if he is on the roster during the season. 2.5 of that is various bonuses that can be spread over 3 years. Then if he meets the "2010" injury clause he gets 3M in 2012. If you want to average that would be 4.145M a season. (actually less because .5M of the bonuses hit the 2010 books.) That average assume though he was healthy and played in 2011. Otherwise he wouldn't have met the "2010 injury clause" and wouldn't get the additional 3M. Making this whole discussion moot. If he helps the Bills and meets performance incentives. 1.) it will be much more expensive and 2.) this whole discussion would be moot because he would be healthy and performing. The $5.25M number was from the article by Tim Graham that I linked. If you don't like it, maybe you can inform him what you think of him by email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 In all likelihood, Merriman signed with Buffalo when no other team offered guaranteed money. And if 31 other teams' pro scouting departments aren't keen on the player, it has to make one wonder why the Bills would take a chance and guarantee dollars. 2.5M may not sound like a lot with a cap of 120M and teams prospectively required to spend let's say 108. OTOH, Buffalo has fewer resources to call on during this rebuild, and Nix' track record in evaluating pro personnel while Bills GM so far hasn't been very good. The burden is on Nix, in essence because he's gambling precious few resources that could be spent improving a very weak roster on a guy with 4 sacks in the last 4 seasons. I would also add that a healthy but ineffective Merriman keeps guys like Moats and Batten from getting game experience because Buffalo can't afford to take their high profile signing off the field. That would be admitting they made another bad personnel decision and prevent the staff from finding out if some of their late round picks are indeed starting worthy. Shall i point out that you were the one running your mouth about how the Bills were never going to be able to, or not going to be willing to re-sign Merriman? Sounds like you're simply looking for reasons to bash the bills for anything and everything, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 If Merriman produces, is it still an act of desperation? As for Bucky Brooks, what a waste of a 2nd round pick that guy was. Ah, Bucky Brooks. He was a complete waste as WR. Yet, he has also has positive things to say about Buffalo, but on cue, since he said something we may not want to hear, out come the cat-calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Ah, Bucky Brooks. He was a complete waste as WR. Yet, he has also has positive things to say about Buffalo, but on cue, since he said something we may not want to hear, out come the cat-calls. Can't speak for anyone else and I have no issue with Bucky saying positive or negative things about Buffalo. My problem with Bucky is that he has no understanding of the Merriman contract and didn't bother checking facts before deciding to write his piece. That and he contradicts himself in the article as well as gives himself numerous outs is Merriman does indeed pan out. He leaves a lot to be desired as a journalist to say the least. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 IIRC, his agent was the one that said that the Bills offer was far better than anything any other team offered. The $5.25M number was from the article by Tim Graham that I linked. If you don't like it, maybe you can inform him what you think of him by email. you do not recall correctly. even without the extension, he still would not have been able to contact a single non-bills team until the start of free agency, which has yet to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Ah, Bucky Brooks. He was a complete waste as WR. Yet, he has also has positive things to say about Buffalo, but on cue, since he said something we may not want to hear, out come the cat-calls. My statements are independent of each other. He was a total waste as a draft pick by the Bills and did nothing in the NFL. How he became an "expert" is another matter entirely. But as with everything else, whether he's proven right remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Rob Johnson Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 In all likelihood, Merriman signed with Buffalo when no other team offered guaranteed money. And if 31 other teams' pro scouting departments aren't keen on the player, it has to make one wonder why the Bills would take a chance and guarantee dollars. 2.5M may not sound like a lot with a cap of 120M and teams prospectively required to spend let's say 108. OTOH, Buffalo has fewer resources to call on during this rebuild, and Nix' track record in evaluating pro personnel while Bills GM so far hasn't been very good. The burden is on Nix, in essence because he's gambling precious few resources that could be spent improving a very weak roster on a guy with 4 sacks in the last 4 seasons. No other team offered anything, they never had the opportunity to, the free agency period hasn't started yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 As this is the first time I have ever heard that Bucky Brooks actually reports on sports in general, or the NFL specifically...he has apparently accomplished his mission. Without this thread, he would have lived on in anonymity for me. I think that's what most of these online "reporters" and/or paper columnists are left with--> say something controversial that grabs headlines...and then disclaim it in the body of the article. There are so many options now, it's hard to stand out unless you have delivered consistent quality content for years. And even then, given the amount of idiots consuming sports media today, you still may get ignored in favor of Deadspin or whatever. Being a sports reporter, or a reporter in general, has to have gotten more difficult...but that's not a bad thing, given that we have had to endure bias and laziness for so long. However, if the internets continue to be unimpeded by government silliness, like all unbiased systems, they will move towards an equilibrium and the best will benefit. Regarding Merriman...boy do I wish he pans out. Even if he can get back to 80% of his old level, that's a serious upgrade for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Shall i point out that you were the one running your mouth about how the Bills were never going to be able to, or not going to be willing to re-sign Merriman? Sounds like you're simply looking for reasons to bash the bills for anything and everything, as usual. This isn't the first time you've thrown something out there about me that isn't true. Last time it was the UFA signings in 2010, which you accused me of bashing, when in reality I didn't. Perhaps you can find an example where I said that Buffalo would never sign Merriman. No other team offered anything, they never had the opportunity to, the free agency period hasn't started yet. In demand players don't re-sign when they've got a chance to hit free agency. Why limit yourself to negotiating with 1 team when you can attract the attention of several to drive up your price? Merriman and his agent knew the lockout wasn't going to last forever, yet he signed a deal pretty quickly and chose to avoid free agency. Something doesn't make sense here, and it's because the deal Buffalo had on the table in all probability was the best he was going to get. We'll see if he's got anything left. And if he does, I'll be here to point it out. If he doesn't, Buddy Nix may be one of the lower tier GM's in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Long Beach Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 This isn't the first time you've thrown something out there about me that isn't true. Last time it was the UFA signings in 2010, which you accused me of bashing, when in reality I didn't. Perhaps you can find an example where I said that Buffalo would never sign Merriman. In demand players don't re-sign when they've got a chance to hit free agency. Why limit yourself to negotiating with 1 team when you can attract the attention of several to drive up your price? Merriman and his agent knew the lockout wasn't going to last forever, yet he signed a deal pretty quickly and chose to avoid free agency. Something doesn't make sense here, and it's because the deal Buffalo had on the table in all probability was the best he was going to get. We'll see if he's got anything left. And if he does, I'll be here to point it out. If he doesn't, Buddy Nix may be one of the lower tier GM's in the NFL. Weird. You're basing Nix's credentials on if a FA contract for an ex-probowler pans out or not? huh. I like the gamble. I don't have high hopes, but it's a relatively cheap gamble IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 IIRC, his agent was the one that said that the Bills offer was far better than anything any other team offered. The $5.25M number was from the article by Tim Graham that I linked. If you don't like it, maybe you can inform him what you think of him by email. I like Tim Graham just fine and Mark Gaughan too. Here is the actual article; http://blogs.buffalonews.com/billboard/2011/01/merriman-gets-good-guarantee.html remembering that NFL contracts are not guaranteed and if Merriman is still banged up in 2011 and doesn't get on the field the Bills can cut him after 2011. My Math adds up to this for 2011: 2011 Base = 2.75M (Not Guaranteed) 2010+2011 Bonus = 1M (1.5M bonus amortized over 3 years) Reporting Bonus = .5M "workout" Bonus = .5M Then if he is cut after 2011 season 2012 Bonus hit = .5M So Basically if he is on the regular season roster and doesn't play at all in 2011 he will cost the Bills 5.25M. If he get on the field in 2011, and meets the "2010 injury clause" requirements, he will get an extra 3M in 2012. That's where the 8.25M number over TWO years comes from. If he can't make it through Pre Season and gets cut in August he costs the Bills 2.5M. The point that I think keeps being missed, is if he is getting guaranteed money in 2012. Then he played and contributed in 2011 which means that the Bills gamble payed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CA OC Bills Fan Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 In demand players don't re-sign when they've got a chance to hit free agency. Do I understand you correctly? You know that other teams would not have offered him a similar contract because if so then he wouldn't have resigned with Buffalo? One goal of any decent GM is to resign their own free agents prior to hitting the open market. Every year there's dozens of free agents that resign before free agency. Most top players, especially quarterbacks, resign without a franchise tag being used. On this board, we argue every potential free agent and for virtually any decent player there's emotion around the arguments pleading with the front office to sign the player before they test the waters. How often does someone on this board still lament that we let Pat Williams go when he was more than willing to resign with Buffalo at a reasonable price before he became a free agent. In most cases, the team does need to make a substantial offer. Otherwise, most players will do as you say, they want to see what they're worth on the open market. Whitner wouldn't sign for what the Bills were offering, but, there was a price he would have signed for. He likely will end up making at least as much on the open market than he was asking for from the Bills. Many of us (including me) don't think the Bills should offer what he's asking. That doesn't mean that there won't be another team willing to offer it. And, it may just be a good move for that team. I understand your point that you don't believe Merriman will pan out. I have no idea other than I hope (as you do as well) that he does. But, I believe that if Nix feels it's a good risk while having all of his medical reports, then I'm glad he took it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 you do not recall correctly. even without the extension, he still would not have been able to contact a single non-bills team until the start of free agency, which has yet to happen. You are correct that free agency never got started and thus no other team could make an official offer. My bad. On the other hand, Merriman and his agent were quick to pounce on the Bills offer and called it an excellent offer. So maybe Shawne and his agent actually have no understanding of the market and were just talking through their hats like many posters on this board then. Another possibility is that Merriman saw the light and realized that Buffalo wasn't as big a step down from Southern California and partying with porn stars as he had first thought. The money and losing had no influence on his decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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