Bills fans should be wary of franchise predators

[Scrappy]

Link

 

This is the part that chaps my ***, who has the nerve enough to hold a town hostage like this after running a financially successful business here for ~50 years?

 

Wilson has no known succession plan. He plans to have the team auctioned to the highest bidder. It's hard to imagine the top bid coming from someone who intends to keep the Bills in this market.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Scrappy

[Doc]

Consider the source.

[Scrappy]

Consider the source.

 

Reality is not a source.

[Doc]

Reality is not a source.

There is no "reality" in that piece. It's starts of stupidly, claiming Bills fans don't worry about the team leaving.

[Griswold]

Yes.. consider the source.

 

Jerry's story is built on "reports" from LA, those reports amount to gossip by the water cooler. Then Jerry adds an extra layer of gossip with "Wilson has no known succession plan."

 

(Wilson is smart, of course he has a succession plan... it's just not known to the public.. for good reason)

 

Having critiqued Jerry's story build up, his underlying story line of "When Wilson is gone, all bets are off. If he dies, the Bills would be at or near the top of any list for possible relocation." is true. Very true.

 

Anyone familiar with estate taxes knows the Bills are gone when Ralph passes. Even wealthy Jack Kent Cooke could not keep the Redskins in his family.. and he was substantially wealthier than Wilson.

 

Don't get angry with Wilson when the Bills move out of town. Get angry with ourselves for creating a government that robs inheritances from families in order to pay for unproductive social programs and pork barrel projects for the politically connected.

[Scrappy]

There is no "reality" in that piece. It's starts of stupidly, claiming Bills fans don't worry about the team leaving.

 

Reality is that Ralph's plan for the highest bidder to buy the Bills leaves us vunerable, that's the bottom line however you want to beat the drum during the song.

[Doc]

Reality is that Ralph's plan for the highest bidder to buy the Bills leaves us vunerable, that's the bottom line however you want to beat the drum during the song.

That isn't the plan and Sullivan claiming it is doesn't make it "reality."

[Griswold]

Reality is that Ralph's plan for the highest bidder to buy the Bills leaves us vunerable, that's the bottom line however you want to beat the drum during the song.

 

Well.. yes you are correct.

 

Just don't think Ralph is selling to the highest bidder because he's milking a buck. His estate (not him) would have to sell to the highest bidder because all they can afford to do. This is a similar case Redskins

[Mr. WEO]

Yes.. consider the source.

 

Jerry's story is built on "reports" from LA, those reports amount to gossip by the water cooler. Then Jerry adds an extra layer of gossip with "Wilson has no known succession plan."

 

(Wilson is smart, of course he has a succession plan... it's just not known to the public.. for good reason)

 

Having critiqued Jerry's story build up, his underlying story line of "When Wilson is gone, all bets are off. If he dies, the Bills would be at or near the top of any list for possible relocation." is true. Very true.

 

Anyone familiar with estate taxes knows the Bills are gone when Ralph passes. Even wealthy Jack Kent Cooke could not keep the Redskins in his family.. and he was substantially wealthier than Wilson.

 

Don't get angry with Wilson when the Bills move out of town. Get angry with ourselves for creating a government that robs inheritances from families in order to pay for unproductive social programs and pork barrel projects for the politically connected.

 

Why is there a good reason? Wouldn't it be better for ticket sales (season tickets dropped by 11,000 to only 44,000) for the fans to know what the plan is?

 

WHile we're on the subject, any one want to speculate on why Raplh doesn't just sell the team now? Why does he continue--because the thinks he's doing such a great job? He needs a little more cash to stuff into the barge for the river Styx crossing? Does he really still enjoy getting all packed up for his rare forays into Buffalo, NY?

 

Anyway, moving the Bills will cost the next owner hundreds of millions in moving taxes and new stadium contributions. The Bills will make money for him on day one.

[Griswold]

Why is there a good reason? ...

 

I think the succession plan (whatever it is) is bad news for fans.. and would drive away fans and hit the bottom line.

 

WHile we're on the subject, any one want to speculate on why Raplh doesn't just sell the team now?

 

A rationale businessman on death's door step would sell now... it's better for his family in the end.

 

Speculating on this could go on for days.

[Scrappy]

That isn't the plan and Sullivan claiming it is doesn't make it "reality."

 

Well.. yes you are correct.

 

Just don't think Ralph is selling to the highest bidder because he's milking a buck. His estate (not him) would have to sell to the highest bidder because all they can afford to do. This is a similar case Redskins

 

How do you figure anything different from the last statement we heard from Ralph about it ?? Ralph is complaining about the new 90% to be paid to players on the table, I see him looking for every dime after he is gone. If he sells it before he is gone, long term capital gains (~15%) apply versus estate taxes (50% or more). If you think that Ralph is thinking of the future right now, you're nuts. I see a guy holding on for as long as he can (including keeping his name on the stadium door).

Edited June 19, 2011 by Scrappy

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

Wilson has no known succession plan. He plans to have the team auctioned to the highest bidder. It's hard to imagine the top bid coming from someone who intends to keep the Bills in this market.

 

The key word is "known."

 

He plans to have the team auctioned to the highest bidder. It's hard to imagine the top bid coming from someone who intends to keep the Bills in this market.

When has Ralph said this is his plan publicly? I thought he didn't have a known succession plan. Did Jerry even speak with him for this article?

 

Wawrow commented in October after actually meeting with Ralph this:

"From what I've heard in the background, and seen happening - without saying anything definitively, because I can't, because no one's actually told me anything - I have a better feeling that this team might be here longer, beyond Ralph Wilson, for a long time," Wawrow said. "I can't say that with certainty, but I get the sense there's work going on in the background that will make the transition easier. I can't really get into specifics, because I can't pin down the facts."

 

"Given the fact that Ralph Wilson is in the Hall of Fame, and built a legacy on voting against relocation, and the fact that I know the NFL wants a market in this region - and I'm speaking to the Toronto/Buffalo corridor - I can't foresee a team moving out of this region just because it's so valuable as far as its proximity goes," Wawrow said. "I think the history is also there with the number of people from the Bills organization who are in Canton."

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2010/10/12/1746725/wawrow-speculates-on-possible-bills-succession-plan Edited June 19, 2011 by Ghost of Rob Johnson

[Doc]

Ockham's razor says that the succession plan is to leave the team to his wife upon his death, thereby avoiding the issue of a fire sale due to the death tax. Selling something in haste rarely brings the highest price, if that's the true plan. But that's not sensible/controversial enough for Sully.

 

But as I've said, given that Ralph has voted "no" to every franchise relocation and he hasn't moved the team from a market that has been declining for decades, the goal isn't to ultimately screw the Bills fans. And there are several individuals with the money to buy the team and keep it in Buffalo (Pegs, Golisano, Kelly's group, etc.). But again, that's not sensible/controversial enough for Sully.

[Pirate Angel]

There doesnt seem to be any real evidence about the Bills being considered. It makes sense that if LA wants a team it will target a West Coast team like Oakland and San Diego, being that those teams already have a fan base there and are close enough to keep there already existing fan base. However it also makes sense that the Bills may be vulnerable seeing how there is a decline in the population of upstate New York and the team hasnt won enough to gereate any income from bandwagoners, making them look for a larger fan base in Toronto. Im not sure if Buffalo has a whole lot of major companies throwing major money at box seats and investments with the teams. Tops and Wegmans can only do so much.

[Scrappy]

There doesnt seem to be any real evidence about the Bills being considered. It makes sense that if LA wants a team it will target a West Coast team like Oakland and San Diego, being that those teams already have a fan base there and are close enough to keep there already existing fan base. However it also makes sense that the Bills may be vulnerable seeing how there is a decline in the population of upstate New York and the team hasnt won enough to gereate any income from bandwagoners, making them look for a larger fan base in Toronto. Im not sure if Buffalo has a whole lot of major companies throwing major money at box seats and investments with the teams. Tops and Wegmans can only do so much.

 

All the more reason to centralize the team closer to a majority of the fanbase with a new stadium in Niagara Falls, one of the seven wonders of the world. How many other stadiums / teams have one of the 7 in their backyard ??

[Arkady Renko]

The NFL could -- I DON'T KNOW -- just expand to LA and end all of this. But they don't. They love having some cities serving as a threat to other cities to force through publicly-financed billion dollar playpens for billionaire owners.

[PromoTheRobot]

We all love to blame Ralph for something he has no control over: the state of the economy in WNY. We all feel like Ralph Wilson and the NFL owe us something but in the Wall Street world no one does anyone any favors. What I find ironic is how the same people who preach free markets are the same ones upset when the free market says L.A. is a better home for the Bills.

 

PTR

Edited June 19, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[nucci]

All the more reason to centralize the team closer to a majority of the fanbase with a new stadium in Niagara Falls, one of the seven wonders of the world. How many other stadiums / teams have one of the 7 in their backyard ??

Majority of Bills fans live in Niagara Falls?

[Scrappy]

Majority of Bills fans live in Niagara Falls

 

Centrally located is a difficult concept but I assume that all the Rochester, Canadian & Central NY fans deserve nothing short of Orchard Park. It's this exact type of thinking that have jeopardized the Bills as industries have left. Where exactly is the most centrally located place to reach the largest market in the area ?? We have One of the Seven Wonders, I personally would think it would be good to utilize that & many of the Highways throughout NY can get you there.

 

Map from Rochester to Niagara Falls - ~2 Hours

 

Map from Toronto to Niagara Falls - ~2 Hours

 

Map from Orchard Park to Niagara Falls ~47 Minutes

Edited June 19, 2011 by Scrappy

[PromoTheRobot]

Centrally located is a difficult concept but I assume that all the Rochester, Canadian & Central NY fans deserve nothing short of Orchard Park. It's this exact type of thinking that have jeopardized the Bills as industries have left. Where exactly is the most centrally located place to reach the largest market in the area ?? We have One of the Seven Wonders, I personally would think it would be good to utilize that & many of the Highways throughout NY can get you there.

 

Map from Rochester to Niagara Falls - ~2 Hours

 

Map from Toronto to Niagara Falls - ~2 Hours

 

Map from Orchard Park to Niagara Falls ~47 Minutes

 

The Bills best hope for the future is selling the regional fan base, from Toronto to Syracuse. Add all those metros up and you have a very major market. But prices will have to go up and a new stadium will need to be built eventually. The NFL is an expensive club to belong to. Until another Pete Rozelle becomes the commissioner Buffalo will have to keep up with the (Jerruh) Joneses.

 

PTR

Edited June 19, 2011 by PromoTheRobot

[Scrappy]

The Bills best hope for the future is selling the regional fan base, from Toronto to Syracuse. Add all those metros up and you have a very major market. But prices will have to go up and a new stadium will need to be built eventually. The NFL is an expensive club to belong to. Until another Pete Rozelle becomes the commissioner Buffalo will have to keep up with the (Jerruh) Joneses.

 

PTR

 

I couldn't agree with you more & cannot see how others are either simply blind to the facts or just ignoring them on purpose. I know some of you probably live close enough to the stadium to see it's best to stay where it's at but what is best for the long-term health of the team is what is important. Regionalizing the team nearly assures us of a much bigger market & assures a long-term viability, which I feel is a no-brainer.

[K Gun Special]

The key word is "known."

 

 

When has Ralph said this is his plan publicly? I thought he didn't have a known succession plan. Did Jerry even speak with him for this article?

 

Wawrow commented in October after actually meeting with Ralph this:

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2010/10/12/1746725/wawrow-speculates-on-possible-bills-succession-plan

 

 

Wawrow is on the money here. From my dealings there has been a plan in place for a number of years. Thats why Jerry in using all of his journalistic intregrity says "KNOWN" succession plan. Yea its not publicly known jerry because of guys like you. The corp Ralph owns, which owns the Bills, came up with the plan in the late 80's, and it has mechanisms in place to keep the Bills in WNY.

[dwight in philly]

Wawrow is on the money here. From my dealings there has been a plan in place for a number of years. Thats why Jerry in using all of his journalistic intregrity says "KNOWN" succession plan. Yea its not publicly known jerry because of guys like you. The corp Ralph owns, which owns the Bills, came up with the plan in the late 80's, and it has mechanisms in place to keep the Bills in WNY.

i sure hope you are right, obviously, it is what i want to believe and hope beyond hope , it is true. the headline in PROFOOTBALLTALK.COM makes me nervous though.

Edited June 19, 2011 by dwight in philly

[K Gun Special]

i sure hope you are right, obviously, it is what i want to believe and hope beyond hope , it is true. the headline in PROFOOTBALLTALK.COM makes me nervous though.

 

 

Well it doesnt guarantee the Bills stay here but it puts all the pieces in place. Those saying the team has to be sold to the highest bidder are incorrect. Its simply not the case. Ralph may be old cheap and generally a less than stellar owner, BUT he is very concerned about his legacy (part of the reason they never re-sold stadium naming rights), he will not go down as an owner who screwed his beloved Bills.

[Scrappy]

Well it doesnt guarantee the Bills stay here but it puts all the pieces in place. Those saying the team has to be sold to the highest bidder are incorrect. Its simply not the case. Ralph may be old cheap and generally a less than stellar owner, BUT he is very concerned about his legacy (part of the reason they never re-sold stadium naming rights), he will not go down as an owner who screwed his beloved Bills.

 

We all hope for the Bills will stay but after hearing the highest bidder speech from Ralph with nothing further having been said since, I think caution is in order about dreaming something different. Ralph is a businessman first & this was an investment, so I would expect that will not change after all this time.

[dwight in philly]

Well it doesnt guarantee the Bills stay here but it puts all the pieces in place. Those saying the team has to be sold to the highest bidder are incorrect. Its simply not the case. Ralph may be old cheap and generally a less than stellar owner, BUT he is very concerned about his legacy (part of the reason they never re-sold stadium naming rights), he will not go down as an owner who screwed his beloved Bills.

curious, why all the hush hush about the plan? why cant a comment or two come from him, or someone within the hierarchy be made to soothe us?

[Scrappy]

curious, why all the hush hush about the plan? why cant a comment or two come from him, or someone within the hierarchy be made to soothe us?

 

If it was set in stone, you'd here about it. This is a liquid situation based on time of death & the estate tax situation at that time. Ralph may live to be 100 years old & all the rules are different then, how can you set a plan in stone for that ?? Did they plan on Rogers dying before Ralph ?? I think not & he was a player for the team, if that wasn't obvious.

[dwight in philly]

If it was set in stone, you'd here about it. This is a liquid situation based on time of death & the estate tax situation at that time. Ralph may live to be 100 years old & all the rules are different then, how can you set a plan in stone for that ?? Did they plan on Rogers dying before Ralph ?? I think not & he was a player for the team, if that wasn't obvious.

that seems logical for sure, but leads to me thinking about other questions . who determines when ralph is incapable of making decisions? , who decides that?, is he in fact, making decisions now?, these are just things i wonder about. is he mentally competent to decide his position on the new CBA?

Edited June 19, 2011 by dwight in philly

[uncle flap]

curious, why all the hush hush about the plan? why cant a comment or two come from him, or someone within the hierarchy be made to soothe us?

 

i would say there's two schools of thought regarding the "secrecy"

 

1: the plan would not be popular among the fans

 

and

 

2: not disclosing a plan eliminates the possibility of having to change the plan in case there's some snag down the road

 

i believe the second position is more likely. imagine ralph comes out and says, "don't worry, i'll sell the team to X when i pass, and he/they will keep the bills in buffalo." all of a sudden, competing groups might arise and attempt to screw up the deal. politicians will get involved. fans will B word and moan to the tune of "if youre going to sell it to X anyway, just do it now"

 

plus, if ralph announces his plan, what if he lives for ten more years and then X loses their money somehow in the meantime? then what?

 

i'm sure ralph and his execs have a ton of plans and contingency plans. but it wouldn't be in anyone's best interests to make those plans public. ultimately it's up to ralph.

 

announcing his plan(s) will just invite the public to debate the merits of those plans, when they don't actually have a say in what happens.

 

 

 

 

all in all, i'm confident ralph has taken measures to ensure that his legacy is not tarnished by allowing the bills to leave buffalo. as someone pointed out, one can look to not selling the naming rights to the stadium.

 

if it really was ONLY about the $, i think the bills would've been gone a long time ago.

[jj____]

 

 

if it really was ONLY about the $, i think the bills would've been gone a long time ago.

really? and go where?

[hondo in seattle]

"Then Jerry adds an extra layer of gossip with "Wilson has no known succession plan."

 

(Wilson is smart, of course he has a succession plan... it's just not known to the public.. for good reason)"

 

 

 

Jim Kelly has hinted that there is a succession plan. And it includes the Bills staying in Buffalo. The truth is that Jerry doesn't know what Wilson's heirs plan to do. This is - like most of Sully's articles - pessimistic speculation.

 

That's is not to say that I am not concerned. Sully's information, while not new, is worrisome. A profit-minded businessman would put the Bills somewhere else. Buffalo is not only a small market - it's also not a growth market.

 

Let's hope Jimbo is right.

[bills1960]

This is a load of crap. Ralph may be cheap but he's not dumb, he's a business man. There is no logical reason why he would keep this team in Buffalo for all this time just for the heck of it. He obviously intends on the Bills staying, or he would have made more money by just selling them years ago. I'm 100% certain he has some type of plan set up after his death to keep the Bills here.

[purple haze]

I couldn't agree with you more & cannot see how others are either simply blind to the facts or just ignoring them on purpose. I know some of you probably live close enough to the stadium to see it's best to stay where it's at but what is best for the long-term health of the team is what is important. Regionalizing the team nearly assures us of a much bigger market & assures a long-term viability, which I feel is a no-brainer.

 

 

A new stadium or a vastly refurbished Rich Stadium will be needed sooner than later, true enough. But Niagra Falls? Its only 16 miles from B-Lo. It's not like that's adding that much more value to someone coming from further up in Ontario. Ticket prices will have to go up to an average NFL level too. No more discounts. But I believe most folks will pay. Especially IF the Bills put a good product on the field.

 

I'm not concerned that they will move. Because we haven't heard about a plan doesn't mean there isn't one. Mr. Wilson could have moved the team many times and did not. His legacy is in WNY.

The Bills have a rich tradition. There are money people, who can afford to buy them, who are starting to make comments about buying and keeping the Bills in WNY. Yes, Mr. Wilson passing would indicate a heightened level of interest from the L.A. group. Doesn't mean they will get the team. I'm interested in Halle Berry. So far she has yet to come pay me a visit.

 

The best thing for Bills fans to do is stop worrying about every article that comes out. There's nothing we can do about it anyway. But if you read the tea leaves you would see there is a very good possibility

they stay put going forward.

[uncle flap]

really? and go where?

 

LA, Toronto, Las Vegas, Columbus, Cleveland before they came back, Baltimore before cleveland went there, any of the expansion cities of the last 30 years, any area w a metro population > 1 million...

[purple haze]

"Then Jerry adds an extra layer of gossip with "Wilson has no known succession plan."

 

(Wilson is smart, of course he has a succession plan... it's just not known to the public.. for good reason)"

 

 

 

Jim Kelly has hinted that there is a succession plan. And it includes the Bills staying in Buffalo. The truth is that Jerry doesn't know what Wilson's heirs plan to do. This is - like most of Sully's articles - pessimistic speculation.

 

That's is not to say that I am not concerned. Sully's information, while not new, is worrisome. A profit-minded businessman would put the Bills somewhere else. Buffalo is not only a small market - it's also not a growth market.

 

Let's hope Jimbo is right.

 

 

Not a growth market right now. Doesn't mean it will stay that way. Times change and circumstance changes with it. Buffalo as a traditional manufacturing hub is done because most companies have shipped those jobs overseas. But there are medical/scientific industries (which it seems B-Lo is starting to tap, clean energy industries, etc.) B-Lo just needs to readjust "its" mindset and make a plan to re-energize the city/region.

[jj____]

LA, Toronto, Las Vegas, Columbus, Cleveland before they came back, Baltimore before cleveland went there, any of the expansion cities of the last 30 years, any area w a metro population > 1 million...

literally none of those would every happen/make sense with the exception of LA and Toronto and those are recent

[Coach Tuesday]

We all love to blame Ralph for something he has no control over: the state of the economy in WNY. We all feel like Ralph Wilson and the NFL owe us something but in the Wall Street world no one does anyone any favors. What I find ironic is how the same people who preach free markets are the same ones upset when the free market says L.A. is a better home for the Bills.

 

PTR

 

The free market is not what turned Buffalo into an economic wasteland. Local pols and voters chose pensions over progress years ago, and that choice sent businesses packing. Now what is left is basically a retirement home paid for by an ever-shrinking tax base.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Coach Tuesday

[Arkady Renko]

We all love to blame Ralph for something he has no control over: the state of the economy in WNY. We all feel like Ralph Wilson and the NFL owe us something but in the Wall Street world no one does anyone any favors. What I find ironic is how the same people who preach free markets are the same ones upset when the free market says L.A. is a better home for the Bills.

 

PTR

 

The NFL does not operate in the world of free markets. If it did, we might have two teams in Dallas, four teams in NYC, and the ability to form a new team at will in any city.

[dwight in philly]

The NFL does not operate in the world of free markets. If it did, we might have two teams in Dallas, four teams in NYC, and the ability to form a new team at will in any city.

i fear that is where it is headed. that is ultimately what the courts would rule if it ever got taken to that point. if it does, then, screw em! the goose will be killed, the dollars will shrink, and they will have self-destructed.

[Hplarrm]

The NFL could -- I DON'T KNOW -- just expand to LA and end all of this. But they don't. They love having some cities serving as a threat to other cities to force through publicly-financed billion dollar playpens for billionaire owners.

Another factor to consider in this is that one thing Sully said in his typical fact-free rant was:

 

The owners are interested in one thing: Profit.

 

It is clear right now where the major source of cash and profit is for the NFL:

 

The TV networks.

 

They provide orders of magnitude more cash and profits to the individual teams than gate sales and local profit streams.

 

A key question is what benefits the TV networks the most and that is of course eyeballs so they can make their own profits selling commercials to companies.

 

The answer is eyeball.

 

If a team comes to LA (much less two) it likely will mean an end to the blackout rules for non-sellouts because there is no way the networks will want to blackout the whole LA area if a team fails to sellout.

 

In fact, I do not know what the actual viewership #s are without a team in LA but the networks (again the true source of money and profits for the NFL team owners) may be quite fine not having the games blacked out in LA. The countervailing theory would be that with a team in LA there will be more CA viewers. Perhaps that will be the case. However, given the past failures of LA teams to produce at the gate given the myriad other nice weather choices and the parking lots known as roads one has to navigate, it could easily be that the networks make more money from there not being a team in LA (much less two).

 

Overall, maybe I am just being Pollyanna about the Bills moving, but I think the bottom line for the NFL is money. If the Bills leave, the individual owner really gets little money from their cut of the franchise fees. In addition, to leave means walking away from 40,000 + season ticket holders, myriad commercial deals and all the assets in place in Buffalo.

 

A lot of this can be replaced in the excitement of a new franchise, but it will take a lot of work and is not a certainty at all that there is more profit for the individual NFL owner by the Bills moving or not.

 

The smart thing to do in terms of profit for the NFL is given a choice between profit in Buffalo and profit in Toronto, the obvious NFL answer is to take both. I see little reason why both profit centers cannot exist and actually like McDonalds and Burger King which found when they set up next to each other they both profit more.

 

My guess is that the NFL goes with the cash and the cash says you want to get at the eyeballs in LA, the eyeballs in Toronto, the eteballs in Mexico City and even the eyeballs in Beijing if you can.

 

This where the money is and the NFL tends to follow the money.