dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 There's no point in arguing. It's like Indians fans bitching about CC and Cliff Lee (remeber, neither were nearly as good stat-wise in their final half seasons with the Tribe as their previous Cy Young years) and Victor Martinez wanting more money, and celebrating when they get traded for draft picks and minor leaguers. Meanwhile, the teams they go to benefit and get to the postseason. It's the same deal with the Eagles -- they'll most likely make the playoffs (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 So that money spent on Hangartner was merely a bridge to Wood? Wonderful plan, especially given this franchise's track record in building a great OL. Another 10M wasted on an underachieving UFA, only to be replaced by a recent draft pick according to you. And who's asking about comparing players that start at very different positions? Finding quality guards is much easier than finding All Pro LT's who can hold their own on an island. This is demonstrated by the multitude of OT's taken in the top half of the first round versus centers. Hangartner is a valuable addition to the Bills. If needed he can play guard next year or take a seat on the bench & provide quality back up to all the interior positions on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombstone56 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 THIS WEK HE FACES DEMARCUS WARE //THE OVER =UNDER IS 3 SACKS ALLOWED FOR HIM ..LETS WATCH .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 THIS WEK HE FACES DEMARCUS WARE //THE OVER =UNDER IS 3 SACKS ALLOWED FOR HIM ..LETS WATCH .. I know I will be watching, should be a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Wood is the future CENTER for the Bills. From what he has shown in his SHORT time in the NFL he will be a GREAT Center for YEARS. Many people that know football think the center position is the most important on the O-line. Time will tell, but I would put my money on Wood having a better career than Peters. Center is not as difficult to fill as LT. Not even close. You can hide slow feet and short arms inside, but you need a special athlete to excel at LT. Ask HOF CENTER Bruce Matthews who once gave up 5 sacks in a game to Bruce Smith when he had to fill in at LT for the old Oilers. And beside, Wood has not played like a future "great" player. What I would really be interested in is your list of all the good moves the Bills have made in recent years that makes you believe in their trade of Peters. Just another dumbass move, in my well justified opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives...agles-line.html A couple things: 1) It doesn't change the fact that our oline still sucks right now. But IMO, our record would be the exact same with Peters. Plus, our oline sucked last year with expensive vets. I'd rather take lumps with young guys who are learning rather than pay JP, DD, & LW $22 million to be slightly better. 2) It's completely petty but I want Peters to fail terribly. He screwed us over. I don't blame him for trying to get paid but I blame the way he handled it. IMO, this trade of an overrated, injured plagued, not brilliant player for 3 players (Wood, Nelson, and a 6th rounder this year) and saying $10 million will be a win for us. Oop, now you've gone and done it. Those dubious members of Peters Nation that like to parade around here bemoaning all of the Bills plights on trading away the constantly contract squabbling Peters are not going to be happy. (But I completely agree by the way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Center is not as difficult to fill as LT. Not even close. You can hide slow feet and short arms inside, but you need a special athlete to excel at LT. Ask HOF CENTER Bruce Matthews who once gave up 5 sacks in a game to Bruce Smith when he had to fill in at LT for the old Oilers. And beside, Wood has not played like a future "great" player. What I would really be interested in is your list of all the good moves the Bills have made in recent years that makes you believe in their trade of Peters. Just another dumbass move, in my well justified opinion. Welcome to TBD. The point you made is certainly valid and most NFL people know this, as evidenced by the multitude of franchises drafting LT's early. Unfortunately, many fans hate Peters so much that they cannot admit the LT position is the most difficult to play. And the reason is just as you stated: that LT's face the opponents best pass rusher each week. Few players in NFL history have been able to neutralize DE's, and those that are get paid. Unless of course it's Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 Welcome to TBD. The point you made is certainly valid and most NFL people know this, as evidenced by the multitude of franchises drafting LT's early. Unfortunately, many fans hate Peters so much that they cannot admit the LT position is the most difficult to play. And the reason is just as you stated: that LT's face the opponents best pass rusher each week. Few players in NFL history have been able to neutralize DE's, and those that are get paid. Unless of course it's Buffalo. Peters gets paid like an elite LT. Odgen, Pace, and Walter Jones are some recent examples of elite LTs. In their prime, do you honestly believe they went through a stretch where they have given up 15.5 sacks in 19 games??? Didn't think so. A few bottomlines: 1) Peters acted like a child and was terrible in 2008. But in your opinion, this deserves a raise. 2) Our oline sucked with Peters last year and was overpaid. We won 6 games. This year, our oline has sucked but we are still on pace for 6 wins. How much difference was Peters making? 3) College LTs have should more than even they can step and play right away. Peters isn't an elite LT and doesn't deserve to be paid like one. A trade like this takes 3 years to evaluate anyways, but I still like the chances of winning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Center is not as difficult to fill as LT. Not even close. You can hide slow feet and short arms inside, but you need a special athlete to excel at LT. Ask HOF CENTER Bruce Matthews who once gave up 5 sacks in a game to Bruce Smith when he had to fill in at LT for the old Oilers. And beside, Wood has not played like a future "great" player. What I would really be interested in is your list of all the good moves the Bills have made in recent years that makes you believe in their trade of Peters. Just another dumbass move, in my well justified opinion. You also need a special athlete that also HAS to be intelligent to excel as a Center. Two completly different skill sets. A center will not play well at Left tackle, but guess what NO Left tackle would play well at Center if thrown in there. Yeah Wood has as a ROOKIE played like will be a great player in the future. This past year was the ONLY year Brandon was GM, so you can't go back further than that to judge the front office. I like the moves Russ has made in the past year, I was happy with the draft & the TO signing. If Peters wanted to be in Buffalo, I would have been all for resigning him. Marv Levy has said that Peters wanted out of Buffalo & I believe Marv. Under the circumstances, I think Brandon made the best trade he could have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 nor can I. although I would like to point out that with the $$ Ralph saved by switching to geico he could have eaten Jaurons contract and get a real coach and OC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 THIS WEK HE FACES DEMARCUS WARE //THE OVER =UNDER IS 3 SACKS ALLOWED FOR HIM ..LETS WATCH .. Who is setting this over/under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Peters gets paid like an elite LT. Odgen, Pace, and Walter Jones are some recent examples of elite LTs. In their prime, do you honestly believe they went through a stretch where they have given up 15.5 sacks in 19 games??? Didn't think so. A few bottomlines: 1) Peters acted like a child and was terrible in 2008. But in your opinion, this deserves a raise. 2) Our oline sucked with Peters last year and was overpaid. We won 6 games. This year, our oline has sucked but we are still on pace for 6 wins. How much difference was Peters making? 3) College LTs have should more than even they can step and play right away. Peters isn't an elite LT and doesn't deserve to be paid like one. A trade like this takes 3 years to evaluate anyways, but I still like the chances of winning it. As normal, you leave several key issues out. And before rebutting your points, let me make one thing clear: Players own this league. Ergo, they generally get their way because ownership interested in winning will overpay for success. This is especially the case since the cap came into play 16+ years ago. Not saying it's right, but this is noteworthy. Your statistical backup is inherently flawed. As I said in another thread, Peters bashers go wherever they can get unproven numbers to validate their sentiment. This is apparent here. Not all sacks are easily credited to one man, although that's not to say he didn't yield some bad ones. Sacks can also be attributed to a QB holding onto the ball, passing late in blowouts, having inferior receivers, et al. 1) Peters' agent Eugene Parker had no out besides holding out. I do not agree with this, but it came on the heels of Russ Brandon echoing Wilson/Littman's stance that they would not renegotiate. Both sides assumed a hard stance, and both are equally at fault. 2) So Peters is no responsible for the other 4 guys not being good? Yes, you're talking about the since released Dockery, un-signed Fowler, Butler, and the since released Langston Walker. You're saying his presence alone should make all of them better? 3) College LT's don't see Julius Peppers, Mario Williams, and Dwight Freeney type DE's all that frequently. Even a guy coming up in the SEC won't see the caliber of pass rushers that any NFL LT will have. Few rookie LT's excel from the gate, especially 7th round project LT's with no game experience. As for trades, they don't take three years to evaluate. Ask the KC Chiefs who traded Jared Allen for picks. You don't trade Pro Bowl caliber QB's, LT's, or DE's in their prime for anything and expect to get better. Second, trading experienced veterans for draft picks will make your team younger and less effective at least temporarily. For a team that said they needed to make the playoffs, how is that making them better for 09? Answer: It isn't, but merely another out for management to say why they failed. After 9 seasons of bad football, the playoffs had to be their goal in 2009. And at this point, 7-1 or 8-0 is what it'll take to get there. Right now, I'm not sure if you don't care more about winning than defending this sad sack organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 As normal, you leave several key issues out. And before rebutting your points, let me make one thing clear: Players own this league. Ergo, they generally get their way because ownership interested in winning will overpay for success. This is especially the case since the cap came into play 16+ years ago. Not saying it's right, but this is noteworthy. Your statistical backup is inherently flawed. As I said in another thread, Peters bashers go wherever they can get unproven numbers to validate their sentiment. This is apparent here. Not all sacks are easily credited to one man, although that's not to say he didn't yield some bad ones. Sacks can also be attributed to a QB holding onto the ball, passing late in blowouts, having inferior receivers, et al. And as normal, you pick and choose your points to argue. You never responded about Odgens, Pace, or Jones in their primes going through a stretch like Peters has. I also love that you choose to call me a Peters' basher. Well, I guess that makes you a Peters' washer then. You and your fellow Peters' washers love to bash this sack stat. You do realize that the stat is used in the same way for every OL in the league, right???? It isn't just Peters' biased. But keep ignoring that fact. And another fact for you. The Eagles as a team allowed 0 sacks in 3 games against the Giants. In his first game alone, Peters was credited with giving up 2 sacks. But I'm sure McNabb forget how to release a ball quickly over the past year. 1) Peters' agent Eugene Parker had no out besides holding out. I do not agree with this, but it came on the heels of Russ Brandon echoing Wilson/Littman's stance that they would not renegotiate. Both sides assumed a hard stance, and both are equally at fault. I agree with this for the most part but not answering phone calls is about as juvenile as you can get. And if the Bills bow down to re-doing a contract 2 years after they re-did another one, when does it end? If Peters would have produced like a true pro bowler, the Bills would have paid him. 2) So Peters is no responsible for the other 4 guys not being good? Yes, you're talking about the since released Dockery, un-signed Fowler, Butler, and the since released Langston Walker. You're saying his presence alone should make all of them better? Well given the god-like treatment some of you have for him, he should elevate the entire oline solely by himself. But actually my point if you read correctly was that Peters being here or not wouldn't make any difference with our record. 3) College LT's don't see Julius Peppers, Mario Williams, and Dwight Freeney type DE's all that frequently. Even a guy coming up in the SEC won't see the caliber of pass rushers that any NFL LT will have. Few rookie LT's excel from the gate, especially 7th round project LT's with no game experience. As for trades, they don't take three years to evaluate. Ask the KC Chiefs who traded Jared Allen for picks. You don't trade Pro Bowl caliber QB's, LT's, or DE's in their prime for anything and expect to get better. Clady, Long, Baker, McNeil, Odgen off the top of my head are LTs that have come in and started right away. They also have given up less sacks than Peters as rookies as well. Of course, that stat is Peters' biased. Second, trading experienced veterans for draft picks will make your team younger and less effective at least temporarily. For a team that said they needed to make the playoffs, how is that making them better for 09? Answer: It isn't, but merely another out for management to say why they failed. After 9 seasons of bad football, the playoffs had to be their goal in 2009. And at this point, 7-1 or 8-0 is what it'll take to get there. Right now, I'm not sure if you don't care more about winning than defending this sad sack organization. Haha. I love how you always whine about attacking the post and not the poster and you do the same right here. Like most of your arguments, you are short sided again. Besides, isn't this heaven for you? You can B word and whine for another offseason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 And as normal, you pick and choose your points to argue. You never responded about Odgens, Pace, or Jones in their primes going through a stretch like Peters has. All three of those guys were in their prime about 5-10 years ago, thus the pay structure is different. They all played outstanding football for a long time, but also didn't get the cold shoulder from their teams when it was time to get paid. I also love that you choose to call me a Peters' basher. Well, I guess that makes you a Peters' washer then. You and your fellow Peters' washers love to bash this sack stat. You do realize that the stat is used in the same way for every OL in the league, right???? It isn't just Peters' biased. But keep ignoring that fact. And another fact for you. The Eagles as a team allowed 0 sacks in 3 games against the Giants. In his first game alone, Peters was credited with giving up 2 sacks. But I'm sure McNabb forget how to release a ball quickly over the past year. Give me some links about the sacks allowed thing. And I'm sure there's something to refute your claims of how sacks allowed are calculated. Clady, Long, Baker, McNeil, Odgen off the top of my head are LTs that have come in and started right away. They also have given up less sacks than Peters as rookies as well. Of course, that stat is Peters' biased. Haha. I love how you always whine about attacking the post and not the poster and you do the same right here. Like most of your arguments, you are short sided again. Besides, isn't this heaven for you? You can B word and whine for another offseason? Clady, Long, Baker, and Ogden were all first rounders. McNeill a mid second pick. And oh by the way, don't forget Ferguson (NYJ), Light (NE), Thomas (CLE), Roos (TEN), McKinnie (MIN), Brown (NO), et al who were first day picks that can play. Sense a trend here? Think any of those guys will get traded any time soon? Come back when you have some sources to back up your support for why it was necessary to trade Peters. And I want you to explain why you support so fervently an organization which has exactly one winning season this decade. Don't give me that "go follow another team" garbage either. Listening to you, the Bills have never or rarely are wrong. Hard to believe considering they're 63-89 this decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zazie Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 You also need a special athlete that also HAS to be intelligent to excel as a Center. Two completly different skill sets. A center will not play well at Left tackle, but guess what NO Left tackle would play well at Center if thrown in there. Yeah Wood has as a ROOKIE played like will be a great player in the future. This past year was the ONLY year Brandon was GM, so you can't go back further than that to judge the front office. I like the moves Russ has made in the past year, I was happy with the draft & the TO signing. If Peters wanted to be in Buffalo, I would have been all for resigning him. Marv Levy has said that Peters wanted out of Buffalo & I believe Marv. Under the circumstances, I think Brandon made the best trade he could have. Marv Levy thinks DJ was and is a great coach. The players seem to vote Peters to the pro bowl annually. Who you gonna believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Marv Levy thinks DJ was and is a great coach. The players seem to vote Peters to the pro bowl annually. Who you gonna believe? I agree with you Marv is wrong about Jauron. We will see if Peters gets voted to the pro bowl in the future. Marv said Peters was talented, but that he wanted out of Buffalo & was affecting the locker room. I believe Marv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Marv Levy thinks DJ was and is a great coach. The players seem to vote Peters to the pro bowl annually. Who you gonna believe? 2 years = 'annually' ??? (Peters = POS) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mousetrap08 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 nor can I. although I would like to point out that with the $$ Ralph saved by switching to geico he could have eaten Jaurons contract and get a real coach and OC. oh so true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 2 years = 'annually' ??? (Peters = POS) Marv = POS. You are a long time Marv apologist. His performance as GM of this team could not have been much worse. You should be embarrassed for supporting him and take that into account when you have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I agree with you Marv is wrong about Jauron. We will see if Peters gets voted to the pro bowl in the future. Marv said Peters was talented, but that he wanted out of Buffalo & was affecting the locker room. I believe Marv. Marv facilitated the problem with Peters when he signed a never was, never will be pro bowl player named Derrick Dockery to the richest OG contract in NFL history. To then not take care of your own, actual pro bowl players makes your organization look like a bunch of shortsighted pricks that only pay up when you have them under the gun. That first offseason of his GM tenure he was the laughingstock of the league for the outrageous contracts he gave out to guys who weren't any good. He literally signed about a dozen FA's and none of them were worth a damn. I remember people saying Marv would get the last laugh. Maybe he will because he made this franchise so irrelevant it isn't even funny anymore. What a mess that old dipschitt made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 along with his other dings and constant groin problem, i think that mash up for peters that just happened tonight might stay with him for a while. looked pretty bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 looks like he came back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Halftime highlights: Dungy showing how Peters getting beat by Ware likely cost Philly a TD. Way to go, Jason. Your're worth every nickel. UPDATE: Peters false start on 4th and inches. I wonder if he was thinking about his next deal? PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE GASH STATION Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Buddy of mine texted me when Peters came back in after the injury. Text read: They gave Peters a nacho cheese IV and promised him a pork chop mouth piece if would try and get out there again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/archives...agles-line.html A couple things: 1) It doesn't change the fact that our oline still sucks right now. But IMO, our record would be the exact same with Peters. Plus, our oline sucked last year with expensive vets. I'd rather take lumps with young guys who are learning rather than pay JP, DD, & LW $22 million to be slightly better. 2) It's completely petty but I want Peters to fail terribly. He screwed us over. I don't blame him for trying to get paid but I blame the way he handled it. IMO, this trade of an overrated, injured plagued, not brilliant player for 3 players (Wood, Nelson, and a 6th rounder this year) and saying $10 million will be a win for us. They also had the extra 4th that motivated them to trade up for Levitre. So for a 3rd a 4th, and Jason Peters they got a pair of young guards who both could be a part of this offensive line for a long time. Also they got a young tight end with a high ceiling as well as a 6th round pick in next years draft. To me Peters is a guy who was great for a 2 year period in Buffalo and came in last season out of playing shape and too focused on his contract and ended up handing in a season where he played bad a lot of the time and even towards the end of the season wasn't near his prior form. Give this front office credit not only did they get a good value for Peters but they drafted Byrd even though we all hated the pick at the time. Now only if they would can Jauron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I am sure he is still lazy and thinks he is better than he really is too. Peters is a rare talent, a nutjob to be sure, but will be in most of the next 10 pro bowls... bad move by bills.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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