FireChans

No. I like YAC. I don't like short YAC routes being the only club in the bag, much like I didn't like the intermediate to deep game being the only club in the bag. The best offensive strategy is to be able to do everything. That's why the best offenses in history weren't JUST small ball YAC or JUST deep threats. They did it all and did it excellently.

Shades of Chan Gailey offense with Stevie, Donald Jones, and David Nelson.

You are right. It's not a Mack Hollins problem. It's a room problem. We were in a "need to pass" situation from about the third drive on. Do you know who played the second most snaps at WR? It was Mack Hollins. Do you know who had the second most targets on the team? Mack Hollins. Like you said, if Mack was just a handful of snaps guy or a running down guy, he's got value. He is negative value the more he plays and the more he is targeted. And somehow he is our third best WR.

Welp, that sucked. Let's start with the bad and end on a high-note with the good The Bad Defensively: Safeties took bad angles and looked tentative, especially Hamlin. Rapp got hurt doing his human missile impression LB's were attacked relentlessly until the second half when I think McD/Babich adjusted their assignments Rasul Douglas was kind of a less than bright spot, Cam Lewis was on the receiving end of some bad whiffs as well Next to zero pass rush in the first half and poor play recognition all around Offensively: Samuel looks like a complete zero of a signing (which sucks because I thought he would be pretty good reunited with Brady) -every play where he is in the backfield is a play where blitz pickup is never a factor OL and pass pro was horrible. The misdirection on disguised blitzes chewed them up. Everyone kinda was bad, but dishonorable mention goes to Torrence who clearly has some bad tendencies on tape that teams will continue to relentlessly attack. I have said it once and I will say it again. James Cook is one of our best offensive players. Getting away from him entirely is a mistake. I know folks have been really high on Ray Davis, but I am absolutely sick of the 1st down James Cook run for 7 yards and then taking him off for Ray Davis to get -1 on the next play. Let James Cook, for real. My personal distaste for this WR group - I have to mention this but I will keep it brief. Teams that are comfortable putting CB1 on Shakir and playing close to the line of scrimmage are gonna be our kryptonite and the Ravens just showed the entire league how to do it. Mack and MVS are non-factors when we are in passing situations. Teams will feel very comfortable with a S or CB3 on them and dare them to make a play. We saw that in full force all game once we got behind. We are making Josh and co. play 10 on 10 or 9 on 9 because these guys just don't have the juice. The call. We all know the call. One of the worst calls I have ever seen and was DOA. With the OL barely able to give Allen a second on a good day, running a pseudo-wild cat with Samuel for the first time on the year when all eyes will be on Allen is really bad. We didn't even set it up earlier in the year. Bad bad bad bad. Will probably be the worst call of Brady's career The offense in general. We were a miracle Josh Allen throw away from scoring 3 points total. PU. The Bright Spots: Defensively: Great second half adjustments on defense, came out flying and gave us a chance to stay in the game Bishop didn't stand out in a negative way when forced to come in Health - we are riding out the clock on TJ and TB coming back. Hopefully they are both back this week or the next, and I think this is the worst defensive game we will see this year. Offensively: Keon Coleman is a player. He was not my choice in the draft, but he had his best game as a pro. Bad drop, but made two EXCELLENT catches against tight coverage when we needed it. I have concerns about making a living on those plays, but I am more convinced that he will be a star in this league sooner rather than later. I wish we had 4 of him. Cook is still a weapon. Again, wish we used him more but I thought the Ravens front would neutralize him. He showed out, he just needs the ball more. Anyway, that's what I got.

HUGE START

This is the "Ravens come home to roost" game.

The future of the AFC South looked so bright like 365 days ago. Sad how fast things change. Back to the dregs of the conference.

I think they will sign him and overpay if they must. Just not something I would recommend at this juncture.

Yeah that's one strategy. But even then, if Burden is like Devonta Smith level, I don't know if it's a good idea to pay them and then you are spending 2-3 high assets on one guy for 5 years. Which is maybe smart to maximize Josh's prime but I don't know about long-term success. I have long argued for the "stable of targets" approach. Take 1 WR every year or every other year in rounds 1-3 like the Steelers did. Starting from 2017, the best WR's from each class have been: 2017 Pick 69 or 84 2018 Pick 24 or 26 2019 Pick 36 or 51 or 64 or 76 2020 Pick 17 or 22 or 25 2021 Pick 5, 6, 10, 89, 112 2022 Pick 8, 10, 11, 52 2023 Pick 20, 23, 50, 55, 69 And 2024 is too early to tell. So while in the most recent years, WR's have been top heavy which will likely continue, there's still plus players scattered all over the draft and enough non-top 10 picks end up being stars. I'm okay with not having a true #1 if we have 2-3 guys who would be in the top 45. And if one of them pops into a top 10 WR, then that's the guy you pay. Otherwise, you let the Mike Wallace's and Emmanuel Sanders of the world walk.

I wasn't a Tee fan out of college. he was mocked to us often in 2020 and I hated it then. He is a good player, but he is Courtland Sutton+. I think there is a world where Coleman is at least an equal player if not better sooner rather than later. I have come around to the idea of not paying WR's unless they are like top 5-10 guys or comfortably outside the top 20-30. The team that gives Tee $25M is going to regret it I think. My ideal WR strategy is for Beane and co. to draft a WR in the first next year with #1 potential, and then be prepared to make a hard decision about Shakir if he is getting $20M offers.

I'll say it,. no thanks.

Honest question, what is the conclusion that you guys are trying to draw here? The question I would pose to you both, is to imagine that Keon Coleman was like Justin Jefferson 2.0 and was a superstar out of the gate. Would that be a good or a bad thing for the Bills offense? With posts like this, I'd like to know where you stand, because personally, If Coleman was a superstar, I think it would be a huge boon to the offense and our SB hopes.

I don't know where he ranks if he had more yards. I do know I only have Shakir over a few guys on that list, not a lot of them. And I think Shakir thus far has been our best WR. I think Shakir is borderline elite at YAC at this point. We now have a pretty large sample size that this dude can make a lot of something out of nothing and that's a great skill. But he is still a slot guy, which caps his ceiling as a WR talent to me.

I can get that. Where the debate gets tricky is "is the gap between Coleman/Shakir and league average 1,2's bigger or more meaningful than the gap between our 3,4,5 and the league average ones? And that is going to be different in 1-2 heavy offenses vs systems like the Bills are currently running. And just FYI, I didn't include Samuel because of his injury. I think if he can get healthy, he will be our #1 or 2 or 3 depending on the day but he's seeing the least amount of snaps at WR currently. His role has not been WR3 in this offense thus far but pre-season I thought he would be number one. I had to copy the list form somewhere, I just said receiving yards so I didn't have to explain why some guys like Kupp or Nacua or AJ Brown aren't on the list.

I'm really not trolling or trying to crusade here. You cut out the part where I referenced Coleman and Shakir, who are ostensibly our #1 and #2 WR's currently. It was the line right before. (even though Mack leads the team in snaps IIRC, but that's a gameplan/blow out function I think). I just genuinely want to know what NFL WR's folks think are better/worse than ours. It's kinda like the definition of a #2 WR from a few years back IRT the Gabe Davis debate. Like is a #2 a top 64 WR in the NFL? Is a top end #2 a top 40 WR? Does that really make them a low-end 1? It's difficult to truly say. I can accept an argument that this WR group is better than the sum of its parts for the BILLS because of the blocking, the defined team roles, the vibes etc. etc. I think the first 3 games of the season support that and honestly, that may hold up all year. What I believe is that of the 128 WR's 1-4 currently in the NFL, if you ranked them all, the Bills average ranking would be less than 64 (below average). Or put another way, if they all were FA's tomorrow, the Bills WR's 1-4 would be on the lesser paid side of average. I don't think that's "crazy," or even an indictment on the group, because of the comment above (that they are performing their roles excellently and above their talent-level).

I don't see how this ends productively when you won't answer the questions I ask. So I will be bowing out. My conclusion is that Shakir alone and maybe Coleman has an argument on that list, and certainly outside the top 10 or even 20. MVS and Mack aren't even in the conversation. And thus, I don't think they are that good, and I won't listen to arguments to the contrary that refuse to compare our players to their contemporaries in the NFL.

My post was about if the WR's are "good." The folks who think that the WR's aren't "good" is comparing them to the rest of the NFL. If you have no interest in that, there's no reason to dispute it either.

See above. I just want to know, who on that list is below Shakir or Coleman or MVS or Mack right now? For example, If your opinion is that Shakir and Coleman are both top 15 guys on this list, then its totally fair to think this group is good.

No, that's not what I'm saying. See I'm very comfortable saying that Josh is much better than his numbers. I think he's the best QB in the NFL this season thus far despite his passing numbers. I think he's better right now than Mahomes/Burrow/LJ etc. What I'm doing is trying to provide context of the WR's on this team. If you are confident that Shakir is the fifth best WR on that list and MVS and Coleman and Hollins are in the top 15 on that list, that's certainly your opinion. I just don't share that opinion. But I would like to hear the opinion of you guys who think this WR group is very good. Because "good" is relative.

This is fair, but the Dolphins WRs are objectively great and the Chiefs/Pats WR's were objectively not great. There's really two sides to this equation. 1. Can the Bills run an enough good enough to win a Superbowl with this WR crew? - Early returns say yes. The offense has been humming thus far, and Brady is in his bag and Josh is playing really excellent. Long season, but plenty to be optimistic about. 2. Is this WR crew considered "good" by NFL standards - This is still very debateable. Illustrated below. Here are the top 30ish WR's on the list this season by yardage. Nabers Collins Lamb Rice Jennings JJ Metcalf Godwin Smith Pierce Chase Adams Jamo St Brown MHJ Reed Hill Robinson BTJ Olave Waddle JSN Reynolds Pickens Mooney Shaheed (Shakir) Moore Diggs Tolbert Odunze Meyers Wilson Flowers That list is in receiving yards. A very imperfect stat. But how many players on that list do you think Shakir and co. are better than?

I don't know about you, but I can't even imagine a great QB missing an open receiver in the endzone at the end of the game vs the Chiefs.

Every year, everyone goes "multiple of these rookie QB's can be at least good to great QB's" and then fastforward 3 years and like one of them at most is even okay. The Trevor Lawrence/Mac Jones/Justin Fields class didn't seem so bad after their first or second years. Fastforward to today, everyone from that class has been cut or traded except Trevor, and Trevor has 1 playoff berth in his career.

There is nothing to debate and I’m not trying to silence anyone. The OP did not respond to support his claim that Lamar is a “below average” QB. He threw a grenade and ran. It’s a total joke.

@Coach Tuesday this is what a bat signal for prejudice looks like, fyi.

Rank your top 32 QB’s and I will explain to you in excruciating and painful detail why Lamar is nowhere close to number 17 on that list.